Platform: Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter, 7.5" barrel

Bullet: 250 grain Hornady XTP
Load: 25 grains H4227
MV: 1230 fps

At 50 yards...
Velocity: 1083 fps
Energy: 650 ft. lbs.
Taylor Knock Out Factor: 17.7

And the point is.

My 5 inch 44 mag redhawk starts a 315 gr hard cast at 1275 with H110.

My 6" .475 Linebaugh starts a 400 grain Speer Gold Dot at 1272 with 296.

The point is that we must see the groups shot with that load. The rest of it is beside the point!

I forgot to mention this group was shot with a 347 gr Lyman boolit using 21.5 gr's of 296. Velocity is 1160 fps.
Shot with my Vaquero at 50 yd's.
What is the TKO of this one? Please figure it for me.

BFR what's your opinion of the .45LC Vaquero? I have one on order that's supposed to be in this week and wondering about how it works mechanically? Is it a tight action, cylinder movement, etc. My gunsmith had one that he'd done some hammer/trigger work on that felt exceptionally good. I asked if it came that way and he just smirked, but when I asked him to take mine and do the same thing before I picked it up remarked that I should just "wait and see how it feels.". What's your take?

I love mine and have dropped deer to just over 100 yd's with it. I did have to ream the throats as they were too small. I would slug the bore and throats when you get one. You will want the throats between .0005" to .001" over bore (Groove to groove) size. Even a tad more is OK. Do not worry about some cylinder side play, it does not hurt a thing. (I can send you group horror pictures of super tight cylinders.) I won't mention the make.

I do my own triggers and mine is at 1-1/2# with zero creep.
For ease of sighting I would prefer the .45 Blackhawk with adjustable sights. The throats still need to be measured, Ruger has a habit of making the .45 too small.
Mine is the old Vaquero, the new ones are as small as the Colts and I would not shoot the loads I use in mine in them.

Dr.Henley -- have you tried any hardcast bullets in your .45? I prefer heavy for caliber bullets myself. How's the accuracy?

DRhenley, welcome to the forum! Unfortunately you have immediately run into the "mine is bigger than yours" crowd. Welcome anyway! There are many of us who shoot and enjoy the 45 Colt. Mine is a Ruger SS Blackhawk with a 5.5 inch barrel. As whitworth indicated many of us do not shoot jacketed bullets for several reasons.
1. Greater variety of hard cast bullets, especially in the heavier weights eg. 300 grain.
2. Greater penetration if you hunt.
3. Cheaper to work up accurate loads.
Peter.

Peter,

If it makes you feel better, my .32 H&R Mag drives a 100 grain SWC at 1157 fps with 8.0 grains of Herc 2400.

Normally, I shoot a 260 grain Lyman 452424 ahead of 13.0 of HS-6. I haven't found a deer in these parts that will stop that bullet.

Bigger and fast doesn't mean much. The idea is to find the most accurate and to forget the velocity and other figures until the best load is found. I have found the heavier boolits shoot the best out of my .45.
I would be just as happy with a load if it was only 900 to 1000 fps as long as it grouped. My load is moderate and it could be stepped up a lot more but for what use if the accuracy goes away.
The .45 is a great hunting caliber and like any other caliber, only accurate loads are interesting.
I would prefer pictures of super groups with the load and boolit information rather then figures showing power and speed.
Not to diss Drhenley but I have had such horrible results when I played with 4227, I really would like to know how the load shoots and his results if he shoots until the gun is very hot, then takes more readings from a cold gun all the way as the gun heats. And show groups as the gun gets hot, I think he would be surprised.
Personally, I hate 4227 for anything except the few calibers it works in so when I see it posted for the .44 or .45, I have to ask.

MS it is not about me feeling better. It is about the somewhat "hostile" reception that this new poster received. You are moderator, for heavens sake. Shouldn't we be welcoming new posters? I am not sure what his motivation was, but I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. It seems to me that many on this forum are just looking for an argument.
Having said that, I have an AMT in 30 Carbine that chronos at about 1500 fps with a 110 grain jacketed bullet and H110. I have a bunch of lead bullets for it but only loaded up a few initially. I plan on going back to them soon. Looking for more accuracy.
Peter.

bfr we posted simultaneously! 4227 was also a powder I tried for my 30 Carbine. I had "decent" results, but nowhere near as good as H110.
Peter.

I see nothing hostile, only the race for speed from some who answered that seems to be all too common.
Drhenley posted information and it was good information, I just want him to carry it farther.
I think my last post explained it as best I could.
Don't quit now DR.

DrHenley, indeed welcome. How does this load shoot in your Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter?

BFRshooter, what load level is good in the Ruger .45 Colt Vaquero. I have a Ruger Blackhawk in 45 Colt and load them on the high end of the data. I know the frame can handle it.
I will surly be reloading for George and I never actually loaded for the Ruger Vaquero 45 Colt. How strong is the frame and should I stay in the Cowboy load data for it.

Peter,

That's the real problem with the internet, until someone develops type inflection. Something that is just missing without the spoken word.

Dr. Henley posted just some chrono results without any explanation as to the point he wished to make. I don't believe either the first response nor mine were meant to be hostile.

Redhawk, Ruger claims the new Vaquero is as strong but I really doubt it. My old one is as strong as any BH but they downsized the new one for the cowboy crowd.
I would say you can use the high end for new Colts and maybe even exceed that a little. The Ruger is still stronger then a new Colt.
Being lighter I would not like to shoot the heavy boolit loads anyway. I would probably stay around 300 gr's for hunting and a 250 to 255 for everything else.
I will search around to see if I can find any loads.

Oh my, such a tempest in a teapot over some load data...

I have no interest in dissing anyone's favorite handgun hunting cartridge. I have hunted deer with a dozen different cartridges, and I've enjoyed using all of them.

I had wanted to post something on another thread about hunting with the 45 Colt, but that thread got so nasty it was locked out.

Here's the point...

At 50 yards the Kinetic Energy of my load is not what you would want in a rifle load on big deer. The usual number bandied about is 1000 ft. lbs.

I have loaded 45 Colt to 1000 ft. lbs. at 50 yards using Lil'Gun powder, but it had a tendency to rip my arm off and blow my eardrums out, and was just plain no fun to shoot.

I like the 4227 load for three reasons:

1: The powder completely fills the case - no shooka shooka.

2: It is reasonably accurate. Let's just say that with open sights and without a sandbag or mechanical rest, it's plenty accurate for 50 yards on whitetails. With a good rest and a scope, I can stretch it out to 100, but I really prefer using rifles for that...

I had filled the freezer with my 30-06 last year and was determined to shoot a deer with the 45 Colt - the old fashioned way with no sandbag or scope. I had both guns with me when these three deer came out in the food plot the last day of the season. I was waiting for the big doe to get within 75 yards but she never did, and I let them walk.



3: The load is right at my tolerance level of recoil with open sights. Any more and I would start developing a flinch, and it simply wouldn't be fun. I have a Casull, BTW, but I much prefer shooting the 45 Colt. It's just plain F.U.N. FUN!!!

Now, about energy and such...

A small caliber rifle bullet requires a lot of energy to produce enough cavitation for a decent secondary wound channel. Without a secondary wound channel, the primary wound channel for a small caliber bullet has a tendency to close up and not produce enough bleeding. But a 45 caliber bullet, especially a hollow point that expands to larger than 45 caliber, will produce a large enough primary wound channel that a seconday wound channel is not necessary. I've noticed, for example, that 45 caliber bullets produce a blood trail from the entrance wound, whereas 30 caliber bullets do not. In the situation of a large caliber bullet, penetration and cross sectional area become more important than energy for judging their effectiveness. This is where the Taylor Knock Out Factor comes into play.

Compare the Energy and TKOF of that load with, say, a 100 grain bullet fired from a 243 at 100 yards:

243:

KE: 1339 ft. lbs.
TKOF: 8.5

45 LC:

KE: 650 ft. lbs.
TKOF: 17.7

The two loads are completely opposite, with the 45 Colt load having half the energy but twice the Taylor Knock Out Factor of the 243 Load.

I'm not a fan of the 243, but I won't try to argue that it does not have enough killing power at 100 yards for whitetails.

The 45 Colt, even with loads used a century ago, has a long standing reputation for being able to take down any animal in North America. Yet most loads do not have the oft quoted minimum energy for deer of 1000 ft. lbs. at even the muzzle, much less at 50 yards.

In conclusion...at 50 yards a 45 Colt with most any decent load is more than sufficient for hunting whitetails.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it!

DrHenley, I agree with your post. I say have fun and shoot the hell out of it. Some times guys want to get to technical and they take the fun out of it.

DrHenley, no dought about it the 45 Colt is an excelent hunting revolver and your load I am sure is a very effective Deer load

Now all of you guys know I don't believe in that energy stuff! And that was my point about the .45 or any large bore handgun. It is not there and is not needed and neither is a hollow point that can limit penetration.
To me, accuracy is more important then anything and any decent boolit from the .45 will kill big deer as far as you can hit them.
Handguns are not rifles and I don't like to compare them in any way. As Redhawk always says, make it a big hole. Let the juice out!

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Now all of you guys know I don't believe in that energy stuff! And that was my point about the .45 or any large bore handgun. It is not there and is not needed and neither is a hollow point that can limit penetration.
To me, accuracy is more important then anything and any decent boolit from the .45 will kill big deer as far as you can hit them.
Handguns are not rifles and I don't like to compare them in any way. As Redhawk always says, make it a big hole. Let the juice out!

Here we go again with the kinetic energy......

Dr.Henley -- you have a .45 caliber bullet which by all rights is a big caliber, able to produce a big hole. No need for an expanding bullet IMHO, but there is a need for penetration, and a heavy hardcast bullet with a big meplat will do all the internal damage you can hope for and leave you with two holes for lots of bleeding. I think the .45 Colt is a fantastic round! Keep us posted!

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Here we go again with the kinetic energy......

If that were the case, why would someone need a 475 Linebaugh? Why not just a 480 Ruger.
What advantage is one over the other???....

But that is all I will say to that....lol

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.

Hear! Hear!

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Here we go again with the kinetic energy......

If that were the case, why would someone need a 475 Linebaugh? Why not just a 480 Ruger.

But that is all I will say to that....lol

The 480 properly loaded will take any thing that the 475 will. In fact Dustin Linebaugh only loads his 475 to 1200 FPS and he took a Grizzly with one shot, NO PROBLEM

Lots of folks load their Linebaughs down to .480 Ruger levels. I don't drive mine that hard and just chronographed recently for the first time after finding the most accurate load for my .475 -- the chronograph was an afterthought. If 1200 fps was the sweet spot, that is where I would load it. But, I do like the abuse it delivers to me at 1,330 over 1,200 -- call me a glutton for punishment!

This is a little hard to say but more velocity flattens trajectory. It creats a larger primary wound channel and penetrates more UNLESS a fast expanding bullet is used, then the bullet can actually impede penetration if driven too fast.
The primary reason for a longer case like the .475 over the .480 is to be able to shoot longer, heavier boolits without increasing pressure.
The .480 reaches it's best at a top of around 400 gr's but the .475 can go to 460 gr's with about the same pressure. Unless you have a cylinder no longer then a .480 to start with. But then, some .480's have longer cylinders then some .475's! Take the SRH .480, get a boolit with a longer nose and less in the case and viola, instant .475!
Plus the larger .475 revolver still allows light loads and .480 brass to be used so it is more versatile.
Look at it this way, take a .38 special with the heaviest + P load, with maybe the 180 gr boolit at 890 fps but you want more. You want almost 1300 fps so you stuff the little case with 13.5 gr's of 296 and compress the heck out of it. WHAT HAPPENS? Can you figure out why the .357 was developed? .44 mag over the .44 special? How many of you own a .357 or .44 mag with a .38 or .44 special length cylinder?
Some guys think it is fine to stuff a long heavy boolit in the .475 case when the nose length is limited to .400" and use heavy charges of powder. You actually have less case capacity then the proper boolit in the .480.
The .475 is NOT magic if boolit noses need to be real short for the weight.
That is one reason for the 1 in 18" twist for most .475's. Cylinders are too short to utilize real long boolits.
Is it any wonder the BFR's are such a wonderful platform? With the proper heavy boolit I can far exceed the velocity, power and range of any other revolver in that caliber.
What hurts the BFR's is that almost every boolit mold and jacketed bullet is designed for the dumb short cylinders.
Someday I will make a 440 or 460 gr boolit that will reach the end of the cylinder on my BFR to see what I can get.

OK BFRshooter, tell me this... . Why are you going to a 460 gr. bullet. What do you gain from 400 gr. to 460 gr. ?

You are not going to gain flatter trajectory with a heavier bullet, but you will increase the energy and the extra weight will aid it penetration.

Why if energy does not mean much to you, why do you feel the need for the extra, bullet weight and speed?
I know why I want it, but what is your reason?

For fun, to show it is possible only. No need for that heavy of a boolit but those that say they can shoot them from short cylinders at high speed are wrong. Besides, they use more lead!
Just a comparison test. I want to see what velocity I can get and then I would like the short cylinder guys also to post chrono readings and targets.

Not quit the answer I expected...

The BC and SD of handgun bullets is low , so what starts out as high velocity quickly drops.But then I'm a reasonable [backwards ] shooter who has only used the old Speer 225 gr SWCHP on deer in my obsolete M29 ,all within 50 yds [iron sights] and only one bullet recovered.That one penetrated almost 30" and expanded out to .50" !!

bfrshooter, I know you're old and hardheaded just like I am, but arguing energy goes far beyond your and my years combined. PERSONALLY, I think "kinetic" energy is a silly misnomer. All energy is actually "kinetic". "Potential" energy is what we may wish for or what's been there in lab conditions, but it really doesn't exist until it becomes KINETIC.

Now you talk of flattening trajectory. That's rather interesting that you'd use that terminology. You can't "flatten trajectory" unless you either reduce bullet weight or increase energy propelling the bullet. Thats Physics 101 as well. If, as you say, there's no need for the energy equation, then my your standard you should be able to just show a deer your bullet and it would die without you shooting it. A .45 slug lying on a table has no energy and no potential. Put in front of a case filled with gunpowder, however, the equation changes and the ENERGY it takes to propell that bullet diminishes with distance. If you shoot a deer at 10 yards with a .45 pistol, there's a relatively good chance of it expiring quickly. That same round, with the same powder charge fired at a distance of 250 is less likely to kill the animal quickly than a brick dropped from a treestand overhead. Now I know Einstein wasn't a pistol hunter, but his formula, E=mc2 seemed to work out pretty well over the years. You may not believe it in or want to hear it, but it won't change the facts of proven physics. I don't believe in ex-wives but I have one anyway - thank God she's "ex" -(and I believe in Him too)

With regards to trajectory, I think these relatively slow moving handgun projectiles scrub off speed at a lower rate than a bullet that is travelling at a high rate of speed when exiting a barrel -- obviously the resistence is greater when a bullet travels at a faster rate.......so I don't think there is a whole lot to be gained from a trajectory standpoint going from 1,200 fps to 1,300 or 1,400 with the same bullet.......just a thought.I know I am over-simplifying a bit......

Flatter trajectory is one positive to higher velocity, hitting a moving target is another. It takes lots of familiarity (or luck) to have, in the heat of the moment, the mind correctly guage drop and lead for a 125 yard running shot with a 1,200 fps load...less for a 1,800 fps load. my $.02, dvnv

Trajectory is important to me when shooting targets out beyond 200 yd's. If I can cut the drop by a few inches it is worth it. Not important at all for hunting.
George, how do you figure that one needs a lighter boolit for a flatter trajectory if the heavier boolit can be driven faster, will it not also shoot flatter? Seems to me the boolit will retain more velocity over distance then a light one. Why to guys use 540 gr boolits in their 45-70's to shoot 1000 yd's? It has also been proven that the 500 gr boolit and lowly black powder can kill beyond 1500 yd's.
I would expect complete penetration on a deer with a nice heavy boolit at 250 yd's if you could hit one, with the .45 Colt.
Seems to me by utilizing more of the case capacity in my .475, by seating a long boolit out, that I can gain both power and trajectory.
Again, not needed for hunting. If you want to hunt deer at 200 yd's, there is the .460 with 200 gr bullets.
Velocity loss with a heavy boolit over long range is very low and is the reason IHMSA shooters need heavy boolits to knock over 50# rams at 200 meters. The .44 mag and 240 gr bullets can even be borderline. The .357 sucks so they made the super mag for a heavier bullet, then the .375 SM and the .445 SM. Bigger cases, heavier bullets and more powder.
Something you can't do when the gun is too small.
My whole point has been that if your gun can only use a certain length boolit before losing all of the case capacity and turning your magnum into a special, you gain nothing.
If you take a .480 case and seat a boolit out to the same overall length as the .475, you have identical results. If you take the same boolit and seat it farther out in the .475 case, then you gain. All without a pressure increase.

LOL BFR, now you're talking ballistics and no longer talking energy. Obviously you can't make a bullet go faster without having more power behind it (if the bullet weight remains the same).

I would never know about what you describe as I'd never take a shot at that distance with a pistol. I'm not that good to try it and would rather have a long gun if I even thought I'd be shooting over 200 yards.

Whitworth, I understand you oversimplified but I agree completely. The friction coefficient has to be considered in higher velocity rounds and, as you stated, probably less in pistol shooting.

Well, the heavier boolit does retain more energy way out there so when you clang steel it will fall over and that is what I meant.
I look at it like this; if I shoot one of my heavy arrows 300 yd's and happened to hit a deer for some strange reason, my arrow would go all the way through just by it's weight. The extra weight retains more energy.
The new light arrows have trouble getting 6" at 15 yd's even though they go 60 fps faster.
Sort of like someone dropping a marble on your toe instead of a bowling ball.

BFRshooter
Shooting heavier bullets faster will help with trajectory, but not as much as a lighter bullet. The trajectory of a heavier bullet is a lot and I mean a lot more than a lighter bullet. I use a 300 gr. bullet in my 460 Mag, and at 150 yards it is a deadly accurate round. I don't need a 200 gr. bullet in the 460 Mag to make a 200 yard kill.
Yes more powder will get you flatter trajectory, but as your bullet weight goes up, so does the arch of the trajectory. That is why it is imperative the one should know the short range trajectory as well as the long range trajectory of bullets if one plans on long range shooting.
With my 300 gr. bullets zeroed at 1 inch high at 100 yards, my hold over at 200 yards is 3 inches. So in essence, I can hold dead on and know I am still in the kill zone.

As for the Buffalo and black powder cartridges:
Those 1000 yard kills were "usually" made with 45-120 and 45-110.
I am a black powder cartridge shooter, and know a lot about trajectory of the 45-70 from my Shiloh Sharps. 70 gr. of Goax black powder and 550 gr. bullets gives me 1180 to 1200 fps. Now at 1000 yards out of a 45-70 the velocity is at 800 fps. But the trajectory is way out there, -1584.2 inches at 1000 yards. That is way the 45-120 and 45-110 were used.
Also the 50-110, 50-90 and 45-90 were also used for buffalo.

Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yds) (in) (moa) (in) (moa) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (moa)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 1202.8 1.077 1766.7 0.000 0.0 ***
100 -0.0 -0.0 1.5 1.5 1125.4 1.008 1546.6 0.258 45.4 43.4
200 -25.9 -12.4 5.9 2.8 1063.8 0.953 1381.7 0.533 93.7 44.8
300 -82.5 -26.3 12.9 4.1 1014.4 0.909 1256.4 0.822 144.6 46.0
400 -172.9 -41.3 22.2 5.3 973.5 0.872 1157.3 1.124 197.8 47.2
500 -300.0 -57.3 33.6 6.4 938.5 0.841 1075.4 1.438 253.1 48.3
600 -466.6 -74.3 47.0 7.5 907.5 0.813 1005.6 1.763 310.4 49.4
700 -675.5 -92.1 62.3 8.5 879.6 0.788 944.6 2.100 369.6 50.4
800 -929.5 -110.9 79.5 9.5 854.0 0.765 890.5 2.447 430.7 51.4
900 -1231.4 -130.7 98.5 10.5 830.3 0.744 841.8 2.805 493.6 52.4
1000 -1584.2 -151.3 119.4 11.4 808.2 0.724 797.5 3.173 558.4 53.3

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Well, the heavier boolit does retain more energy way out there so when you clang steel it will fall over and that is what I meant.
I look at it like this; if I shoot one of my heavy arrows 300 yd's and happened to hit a deer for some strange reason, my arrow would go all the way through just by it's weight. The extra weight retains more energy.
The new light arrows have trouble getting 6" at 15 yd's even though they go 60 fps faster.
Sort of like someone dropping a marble on your toe instead of a bowling ball.

That is why energy is so important.