Not so Redhawk! Billy dixen made his shot with the 45-70 during the civil war and killed his man at 1538 yd's.
Yes trajectory goes up with heavier boolits, no doubt about it but when you need force to clang steel the heavy weight is where it is at.
They shot the 45-70 to prove that Billy's shot was not possible and found the boolit went 3,245 and 3,190 yd's before hitting the ground depending on elevation and boolit weight.
The fun part was the boolit went 4000 feet high and was in the air 30 seconds.
If you research the history of the buffalo hunters, they tried to get as close as they could, just like we do. The 45-90 and up could give them a little more range with a flatter trajectory and is just what I am talking about with more case capacity.
I am trying to combine impact on steel at long range with a heavy boolit as flat as IT will go.
I know I can shoot a light boolit flatter, so does everyone else.

Actualy Billy Dixson made his shot at Abodie Walls and shot an Indian at 1538 yards with a 50-90 Sharps..

Not much "energy" at that range......

Plenty of momentum though.. Not to mention the diameter...

Whitworth, a 45-70 with a 550 gr. bullet going 808 fps still gives 781 fpe at 1000 yards. I would say that is still enough to kill. That is just with a 45-70 that has a 550 gr. bullet, 70 gr. of black powder and a muzzle velocity of 1200 fps. It would be even higher with a cartridge with more powder capacity.

BFRshooter, I did my research of buffalo hunters many years ago when I was heavy into my Shiloh Sharps and black powder cartridges. As a matter of fact, I have quit a few books on the subject.

As for the 1538 yard shot, the question is, could that shot be made on a consistent basis back then, or was it more luck than any thing else? I say it was luck. There is only a handful of guys doing that today with modern firearms.

I can't find my story so I am unsure of the caliber. But I would say it was pure luck! Or he shot so many times one happened to hit.
I remember the story of the soldier that had a .50 BMG machine gun barrel made into a rifle in Korea. His spotter would pick out a target at 2000 yd's and then find a spot on another hill that distance. The shooter would then sight on that spot and turn back to the commy and shoot him. They were so far away, the gunfire did not alert the BG's.
That's what the buf hunters did. Far enough away that they could wipe out a herd but not so far they could not hit them. A lot closer then everyone thinks they were.

According to legend as well as Billy Dixson's memoirs he fired one shot, there was some hesitatiin and he thought that he had missed when the indian suddenly fell off of his horse. The other Indians ran out and drug the shot Indian to cover.

OK, I found it, it was a 50-90 and that is MUCH worse for trajectory then the 45-70 because of the short, stubby boolit for it's weight.

My friend had a .58 musket and it could not keep a Minie' ball on paper at 50 yd's so I lapped his mold for a perfect fit.
Accuracy went WAY up so we went to a silhouette shoot. We shot at a 200 meter gong for fun and he could not hit it offhand. I said give me the gun. I shot---waited and turned to go back to the bench. I took about three steps when I heard it hit! Lots of fun.

bfrshooter, you would have made a great mortarman!!

You mean like a Brick layer?

No.

BFR, now I KNOW you wouldn't exaggerate now, would you? The speed of sound is roughly 1130 FPS on a day with 0% humidity and temps around 70 degrees F. The .58 caliber miniball was probably traveling at an average speed from muzzle to target about 750 FPS with a regular load. Since the target was about 660 feet away, the bullet would have gotten there in about a second, perhaps two if you had to hold over the target 8 or 10 feet. The sound it generated would have returned to your ears in about half that unless the Doppler effect was changed by the wind direction. Now about the best you could have done was PERHAPS 3 seconds total between shot and return echo.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
Now I know Einstein wasn't a pistol hunter, but his formula, E=mc2 seemed to work out pretty well over the years. You may not believe it in or want to hear it, but it won't change the facts of proven physics.

Can some one explain how Einstiens basis for the therory of realativity even remotely conected to handgun hunting.


Albert Einstein is perhaps the most famous scientist of this century. One of his most well-known accomplishments is the formula
Despite its familiarity, many people don't really understand what it means. We hope this explanation will help!

One of Einstein's great insights was to realize that matter and energy are really different forms of the same thing. Matter can be turned into energy, and energy into matter.
For example, consider a simple hydrogen atom, basically composed of a single proton. This subatomic particle has a mass of

0.000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 001 672 kg
This is a tiny mass indeed. But in everyday quantities of matter there are a lot of atoms! For instance, in one kilogram of pure water, the mass of hydrogen atoms amounts to just slightly more than 111 grams, or 0.111 kg.
Einstein's formula tells us the amount of energy this mass would be equivalent to, if it were all suddenly turned into energy. It says that to find the energy, you multiply the mass by the square of the speed of light, this number being 300,000,000 meters per second (a very large number):


= 0.111 x 300,000,000 x 300,000,000
= 10,000,000,000,000,000 Joules

This is an incredible amount of energy! A Joule is not a large unit of energy ... one Joule is about the energy released when you drop a textbook to the floor. But the amount of energy in 30 grams of hydrogen atoms is equivalent to burning hundreds of thousands of gallons of gasoline!


http://www.worsleyschool.net/science/files/emc2/emc2.html

How is george roof connecting this to handgun hunting.

I don't know how much powder he used but he didn't like recoil so the thing must have been very slow. we all thought I missed. Say it anyway you want, but thats what happened. When all the guys at the bench laugh too, it's funny.

Common mistake. The formula for Kinetic Energy is:

1/2 Mass * Velocity²

Einstein's famous formula for converting matter into energy is:

Mass * SpeedofLight²

They are related, but obviously a bullet is not travelling at the speed of light, and we're not splitting atoms.

Even though the two equations are seductively similar, the explanation is not quite that simple. One would think that in being converted into energy, a particle is simply accelerated to light speed. But what happened to the "1/2" in the formula?

The relativistic formula for Kinetic energy is:



For values of v (velocity) much much lower than c (speed of light) a Taylor expansion of the formula yields only two terms that are non-trivial:

KE = mc²(1 + 1/2 v²/c²)-mc²

Which simplifies to:

KE = 1/2 mv²


Class dismissed...

Of course you're correct Dr. Henly, HOWEVER, those were two different subjects we were talking about and since BFR has consistently refused to accept other physical laws, I simply picked one probably more familiar to him as a simple analogy. Now would you like to explain to them the theory behind the concept of a rail gun and how the use of that formula may not be sufficient? LOL

A looonnng stretch

George ask me what JWP said in his post, I told him I had no idea, I was ignoring him, he laughed and said he was also. So JWP whatever you said, George has no clue what it was, and I don't think he really cares...

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
George ask me what JWP said in his post, I told him I had no idea, I was ignoring him, he laughed and said he was also. So JWP whatever you said, George has no clue what it was, and I don't think he really cares...

I don't realy care what he or you care about.. But apperently you care about or you would not have replied

Thanks DrHenley, It is always fun going back to school....

Actually the formula for energy is 1/2 mass (in pounds) times velocity squared divided by 32.1740 (one gravity)
For example a 500 gr bullet at 2000 fps
2000 X 2000 = 4000000
4000000 X .0357 (1/2 mass)= 142800
142800/ 32.1740 = 4438 fpe

Close enough for government work.

quote:

The relativistic formula for Kinetic energy is...

quote:

Which simplifies to:

KE = 1/2 mv²

Bah, I just use the one I like better.
That's the scientific way, ain't it?

Still do not see how E=mc2 has to do with handgun hunting.
The speed of light squared in the handgun hunting forum is ridicules, hell handguns rarley make Mach 2 much less the speed of light. go roof