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OK for sake of discussion, how much "power" do you feel is necessary for a carry handgun, when Woods Walking/Fishing/Rifle or Bow hunting? Consider 2 sceneraios, Bears, and No Bears. Local animals and 2 legged varmints are a consideration also... You can include the type of handgun you pick as well. Lets "try to keep it friendly". DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | ||
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Of course there are a lot of opinions on this one but the ammo used in each shooter could make a difference, at least in my choices. 1. No bears out tonight! but locals are there in 2 & 4 legged model. One choice that I like would be a Glock 27 with some stiff 180g. loads at 1,150fps 2. Bear are out tonight along with locals. 44Mag with a shorter barrel 4-5" loaded with hard cast 300g loads at 1,375fps in cross draw holster. | |||
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If you'd just put wheels, a tranny and a license plate on one; you could have a real gun. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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I will go first. I am not a small bore handgun kind of guy. Never have been. I think a DA revolver is the best choice for animals, as if you are attacked and knocked down, there is a good chance that a semiauto will not function 100% as it may contact the animal, its hair or part of your body/clothing. I think the Super Magnums have too much recoil, to be shot with one hand from awkward wrist positions. When I hunted bear with my 475L I carried a 1911 or a 44 Mag for protection, or carried the FA 475L with the Buffalo Bore light load with a 420gr bullet at 980fps. My calibre of choice is the 44 Mag. In non bear areas a 240gr cast bullet at 900 to 1100fps seems adequate to me. In bear areas a 240gr hard cast at 1200fps is my minimum. 300gr Federal Cast Core, or Buffalo Bore, or Garrett 300+ grain ammo is the way I "roll". I will admit, that many times in non bear areas I carry a 1911 in 45 ACP with 230 gr ball, or Buffalo Bore 230gr FP +P ball. The semiauto has a distinct advantage against 2 legged varmints. A lot of the time I am hunting by myself and I fear 2 legs more than 4... I have also carried early on, the 1911 in bear areas, both Black and Grizz, because the Light Weight Colt Commander is just so light and handy. But I under stand its limitations, and remain ever vigillant... But truely, after I shot my first black bear, I know only a head shot will save my life, with the 1911. Which is probably true even for the 44 Mag. Also the HP/SP vs FMJ/Hard Cast. While I might, and have, handgun hunted with a HP or a SP, I only consider a Hard Cast or a FMJ bullet for Protection. So basically for me, in non bear areas a 230gr at 830fps I consider adequate, and my minimum. In bear areas a 240 at 1200 is my minimum. Anything much over 300gr at 1200, gets to be to much of a good thing, for protection. IMHO of course... In 44 Mag I like the S&W 4" Mountain Revolver. In a Semiauto a Govt. Model 1911 in 45 ACP or a LW Colt Commander, are my picks. While I like to shoot Single Action "cowboy" guns, truth is I never carry one, unless it is backed up by something else. This is most probably because of my former Job, but I cannot change the way I "feel"... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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How bout a Glock 20 with a bunch of full fower 10mms in the magazine? Don't limit your challenges . . . Challenge your limits | |||
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LewisB I would consider that the equal of the 1911 in 45 acp DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Dad worked for the Forest Service for 30 years, back in grizzly country all the time. Bear spray and a .357 is what he carried. I carry a S&W .44 mag (pre-lock), 5" with full underlug, and spray. Were I faced witha problem bear I would use the spray first but have the pistol ready to go.  | |||
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This is my current favorite woods carry piece -- a Redhawk with a 4-inch barrel in .454 Casull, stoked with heavy .45 Colt loads (360 grain WFNs at about 1,150 fps).  I am really fond on the .45 Colt and much prefer it over the .429 Magnum. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Mine is an old 4 5/8" Ruger Flattop 44 Mag loaded with the 280gr WFN to 1100 fps carried in a Simplyrugged pancake. With it's original aluminum grip frame it is a very packable piece with all the thump I will need, bears or no bears. | |||
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Boixhead Where abouts in the Idaho Panhandle do you hang out. I have spent a lot of time around Troy Montana, and Elk City Idaho. I have a lot of good people I have met around Elk City and Dixie Idaho. While I was born and raised in Texas, IF I was to ever leave here, I would move up to that part of the world. I could live in Dixie in a heart beat. Or even Elk City no problemo... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Once upon a time, I do not know who was the first to come up with this, I think I first read it by Jeff Cooper, and it relates to 2 legged "varmints", but it can serve as a start of discussion for animal protection as well... The thought was, 40cal, 200grains, at 900fps... In short, 40/200/900. That was the minimum. The theory being if you changed one thing, then you had to change another to get acceptable results. Again in the realm of 2 legged protection, other "formulas" that worked were: 357/125/1400. 45/230/830. Yes I kbow people have been one shot stoppedwith less, I have seen people dropped to the shot with a 25 ACP. I have seen them take several 9mm's as well, and atill be walking or running around. I have never seen anyone take more than one 40+ cal hit to the chest and take more than a step. SO, I think the 40/200/900 does have some merit. For animal protection, I think it is all about breaking the skull. 40/200/900 with a hard cast bullet seems to be a good place to start. I have shot into the brain on pigs with a 40 S&W, and a 45 ACP, with standard ball ammo. I do know [the shots fired by me] that a 44 Mag, 4", with Garrett's loads will penetrate through a cape buff skull, down into the neck, and through a cow elephants. skull, into the brain from the side. This is why I say a 10MM or a 45 ACP is good to go in non bear areas, and would be OK, [just OK] in bear areas, and a 41 Mag and up shooting 200gr+ bullets at @1200 will be good to go in bear areas... Heavier bullets even "mo betta". All of this is with hard cast or rugged FMJ bullets of course. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Now my serious reply. Working in the woods, I'll have either a .44 or .45 with me. On occasion, I will be surveying property that I know has a hog population. Those times, I will have my .500 Linebaugh on my hip. Working in the urban jungle; it will be two revolvers and both will start with a "4". If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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My place is about 15 miles NE of Sandpoint up the Cabinet's. | |||
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Shortly Iam heading out for a walk in the woods bear and wolves are both in the area. Most likley I'll have my glock 23 on with 165gr golden sabers. Why because thats the holster on my pants and I don't feel like changeing it. If I walk in grizz country then my 41 mag or my 44. Or what ever I have on that day. | |||
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sdkidaho, A gun like yours is currently on my "wish list". Looks great. My current favorite for woods carry is this 4.25" .45 Redhawk:  It has had an action job and its cylinders numbered by Magnaport. It seems to like 280-310 gr bullets. | |||
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It depends on what kind of Bear you are dealing with.I live in a area heavily populated by Black Bear .Two bears were killed on my property last fall. The average bear killed around here weighs 200 lbs.Last year some over 650 lbs were killed with in a mile of my house.I had over a dozen different Bears coming to bait Stations.I feel a 357 to be more than adequate for Black Bear.years ago you could shoot Black Bear on a Small Game License as they were considered Vermin.We would run them with dogs.The majority of Treed bears were killed with 22 mags out of a rifle. | |||
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Boxhead That is nice country. I have driven through Sand point a few times, using the road from Moyie Springs most of the time. Seen lots of bears, black and Griz,and moose up there. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Depends on the brand of bear. Black bear aren't hard to kill. If I was going to use a big bore magnum for black bear I would definitely use some sort of jacketed expanding ammo. I don't want a hard cast bullet just putting a hole through and through the bear. Now that hard case might be good for a big Brown or Grizzly where you need penetration. I won't get into a discussion on the reliability between a revolver and semi-auto here. I will say the auto's are far more reliable then one may think. Revolvers have their problems too. | |||
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I have to disagree a lot of jhps well not give even close the penatation needed. Having recovered several differant types of hand gun bullets from bears. I good hard cast wfn is very hard to beat. Having shot several bears through the head one 500 pounder I can say a good hard cast wfn goes in side out the other. 41mag at 1050fps 215 hard cast wfn. My 44 315 gr cast wfn at 1300 will shoot through 3 plus feet of black bear I saw a 350 sow shot in the neck with 180 jhps 40s@w that didn't penatrate through the neck enough to break the spine. She was findly finshed off with a 12 ga slug. I have the recover bullets around hear some place. You might asked why was I carring my 40 with 165gr jhps then. Because it was handy and I know head shots only at close range. When I know there is a good possibilty of having to shoot a bear my 41 or 44 mag with a hard cast wfn goes along. | |||
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P Dog I won't argue with you on a 180 grain jacketed. Hornady will tell you that they don't even want you using it for deer hunting. Ross Seyfred was very set on recommending hard cast for hunting until he got hundred's of letters back from angry hunters that lost their game because of through and through shots that left very little blood trails. Now he recommends expanding jacketed loads.....the right right ones...not ones too light for the applications. Like I've said many times before and other forums we didn't evolve to jacketed bullets today because they were inferior to cast bullets. Hey, I love shooting cast bullets too. How many serious African big game hunters use cast bullets? Sure I know there are a few, but is it recommended? No. Do any of the armies of the world use cast bullets? I don't think so. By the way a bear shot through the head is finished no matter what type bullet it is. Notice I said through. | |||
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This just isn't true. He still prefers a good hardcast bullet to a jacketed expanding bullet from a big-bore revolver. I am curious where you got this tidbit of "information." "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Get a clue. Most all African PH's working DG hunts use solids for good reason, they penetrate and kill just like a good cast bullet from a large bore revolver does. | |||
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They use solids (not cast) because they need penetration and bone breaking bullets. A cast just won't hold up to that as RELIABLY as the factory solids and you know it. | |||
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I talk to Ross on a regular basis and he is still a big proponent of cast bullets and doesn't care for expanding bullets. SmokinJ, let me ask you this. Do you hunt with hardcast bullets? Have you ever hunted with hardcast bullets? I ask because unless you are driving them way too fast, they are absolutely reliable even on heavy bone. The trouble with many is that they lump all cast bullets together and characterize them as all being the same. It's just not the case -- all jacketed expanding bullets aren't created equal either. Deer are thin skinned, narrowly built and not particularly hard to kill. I too sometimes use expanding jacketed bullets on them, but when I want/need uncompromising penetration and a big wound channel, give me a hardcast bullet, with a big meplat, at moderate velocity any and every time. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Whit, Yes I hunt, or should say have hunted, with hard cast bullets. Right now for the smaller critters up through whitetail deer and black bear I use a 50/50 alloy of wheel weights and pure lead. For hunting I air cool them. For punching paper I'll use air cooled and water quenched. Let me ask you this. Have ever shot any game that your recovered and upon examination found that the animal had been shot before with a through and through shot from either a bullet or an arrow? I have and so have my friends. What's that tell you? Tells me if you don't hit a vital organ that the animal may live and those recovered animals we saw are proof. Now there is no doubt in my mind a hard cast bullet through the heart or lungs are going to anchor the deer. I have friends and myself that have experienced the bullet holes sealing off with fat and sometimes the skin sliding over the holes which results in very little blood leakages. I'll give you one example. Many years ago I shot a buck that was facing me with a Model 94 Winchester in the 45 Colt chambering. I had the load doing about 1600 fps. The bullet was a hard cast RCBS 255 grain with a very flat nose. The shot was 30-35 yards and the bullet entered his left chest and exited his right rump. The bullet was parallel with the deer. He jumped and ran off. Only drop of blood I found was about dime size on a flat rock. This was on my property so I brought my two German shepherds down to see if would trail him. They are not trained for this being just average pets. They smelled around where the deer was shot, but that was it. So the next day I started a circle search from where the deer was shot and widening it. I found him over 300 yards away and he was all bloated. I hated to see the meat wasted. I switched to that alloy mentioned and I've never had any failures with it. It was many decades ago that Ross wrote that in G&A when he had a regular column. I remember him promoting hard cast then. Another bad choice is too light a jacketed expanding bullet such as a 180 grain 44 magnum. Hornady will tell you that they don't recommend that for deer hunting because they believe it doesn't have enough penetration. It may not on larger bodied deer. Don't get me wrong, I love shooting cast. | |||
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Of course, you don't hit the vitals it matters not what you shoot them with. Again, all hardcast bullet designs are not created equal. What types of nose profiles are you using? Semi-wadcutters by chance? Many "Keith-style" (most misused term in the industry) bullets will not have a very big meplat. If you are experiencing a through and through with minimal damage, perhaps you aren't using a very good bullet design. Have you used any LBT designs? LFN? WFN? WLN? Just curious. I have found that typically, when folks claim that hardcast bullets slip through without doing much damage, they are not using a very good bullet. What would you rather have, one or two holes? I have found that they tend to bleed more when they have yet another orifice to bleed from. That said, every animal is a law unto itself. Some drop on the spot, others absorb bucket loads of lead before they succomb to their wounds. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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I liked that question about would I rather have one or two holes. Hmmmmm. If I have a heavy bullet with lots of energy I'd rather that bullet dumped most, if not all, of it's energy in the animal. I have friends that will argue the bullet style to a degree with you because all of them have lost animals with all sorts of bullets, even the one you mentioned. By the way that 45 Colt RCBS 255 has a pretty big meplat on it. | |||
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That RCBS bullet is a semi-wadcutter and has a pretty small meplat relative to what we are talking about here. In .45 Colt I use 335s and the meplat is 81% of the diameter, and they make a large wound channel. If you have never used LBT bullets (and it sounds like you have not), I would recommend using them before drawing judgement on "hardcast" bullets as again, they are definitely not all created equally. As far as energy dump is concerned, please see the thread bellow this one on the .45 acp penetration on a hog, it's a good reality check for muzzle energy proponents. Now, if you believe in energy dump, I have a slightly used bridge for sale real cheap in New York.  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Yes compared to some of the new cast bullets it's meplat is no comparison, but still large for a run of the mill SWC. Some of those friends I told you about shot deer with heavy full wadcutter cast bullets with the same bad results. We touched on a through and through shot hitting no vital organs. It a high velocity expanding jacketed bullet there sometimes is enough hydraulic shock to a vital organ to nail the animal. This is still no excuse to make bad shots. I like to see a bullet dump lots of energy in the animal, but still have enough left to exit it. | |||
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That's just it. BULLETS DO NOT DUMP ENERGY INTO THE ANIMAL. In case you did not catch that, energy dump is a myth. If you don't hit the animal properly, it really doesn't matter what you shoot. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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Exactly!!!!!! SmokinJ, I have seen deer hit with high powered rifles that were 1 lunged that went a VERT LONG WAY and left little to no blood trail Energy dumped is total BS The ballistics pendelum clear proves that it is momentum that is transfered and not energy  energy mostly transforms into thermal energy Hard cast bullets put animals on the ground pronto and I have done so for decades    Here is the exit in the rib cage of a 6X7 bull Elk from a 300 win mag with an impact velocity of about 2600 FPS for 2700 FPE  Here is the exit in the rib cage of the same elk. This exit was produced by the 500 JRH revovler shooting a 440 flat point hard cast about 950 FPS for 888 FPE  In both photo's I am holding a loaded 300 win mag for size comparision It is very clear that the round with the most energy lest the smaller wound channel _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I see what you guys are talking about. That's in movies a guy gets hit with a slug and it literally throws his whole body. We know that's not true at all in a real life shooting. You are right. I've seen deer hit with some of the largest and highest velocity rounds, and although it killed them, it didn't blow them off their feet and in many instances they moved from where they were standing when shot. I believe I stated it wrong. I'm talking more hydraulic shock damage and an expanding bullet does that. It makes a larger permanent and temporary wound channel. I believe the large flat nose on hard cast helps them some by more tissue damage and hydraulic shock. Right now, on a particular forum devoted to cast bullets, the trend is towards hollow point expanding cast bullets. Why do you think that is? | |||
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I beleive that that you are refering to hydraulic pressure and that is a functinon of velocity. The higher the velocity the higher the hydraulic pressure if the pressure is high enough the tissue is stretched past its elastic limits and the tisue is ripped apart The frontal area of the bullet crushes tissue. The wound channel is created by the amount of momentum transfered, the amount of direct applied force and the amount of hydraulic pressure. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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No clue as to why that is. The nose has to be cast soft to expand reliably and after it wipes off, you have a large meplat shank of the bullet. Why not ust start with a large mepalt and retain more weight of the bullet? If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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They don't know any better, I'd say _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I'd have to say you are correct. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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I am a member of Castboolits and have been for years, and most of those who hunt large game with revolvers and cast bullets still use flat nosed designs that aren't meant to expand. Hydraulic pressure is minimal with any handgun round due the rather anemic velocity. When your bullet is starting out at nearly a half an inch in diameter, why do you think you need expansion? You need to invest in some LBT designed bullets, kill some game, and perform a necropsy on each one. Then maybe, just maybe, you will understand what it is we are talking about. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Sounds like he was in 44man's needs expansion velocity zone...1,600 fps. | |||
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Ain't exactly handgun, but my .44 mag Trapper has flattened evrything she's hit from 30-85 yds using factory open sights. Load is 300gr Castcore WFNGC's over 19.5 grns of H110. Bang flop no running. Granted all were head or heart shots. Got to hit where it counts. Saying that I would caryy my 7 1/2" SBH in my cross draw and my Colt .45 ACP w/ 230grn in my high carry strong side. Covers everything pretty much. To each his own. The things you see when you don't have a gun. NRA Endowment Life Member Proud father of an active duty Submariner... Go NAVY! | |||
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