quote:

Originally posted by dvnv:

quote:

Many years ago I shot a buck that was facing me with a Model 94 Winchester in the 45 Colt chambering. I had the load doing about 1600 fps. The bullet was a hard cast RCBS 255 grain with a very flat nose. The shot was 30-35 yards and the bullet entered his left chest and exited his right rump. The bullet was parallel with the deer. He jumped and ran off. Only drop of blood I found was about dime size on a flat rock. This was on my property so I brought my two German shepherds down to see if would trail him. They are not trained for this being just average pets. They smelled around where the deer was shot, but that was it. So the next day I started a circle search from where the deer was shot and widening it. I found him over 300 yards away and he was all bloated. I hated to see the meat wasted. I switched to that alloy mentioned and I've never had any failures with it.

Sounds like he was in 44man's needs expansion velocity zone...1,600 fps.

There is more to this story than is being told. Sounds too thin for the shot placement being claimed.

quote:

Originally posted by dvnv:

quote:

Many years ago I shot a buck that was facing me with a Model 94 Winchester in the 45 Colt chambering. I had the load doing about 1600 fps. The bullet was a hard cast RCBS 255 grain with a very flat nose. The shot was 30-35 yards and the bullet entered his left chest and exited his right rump. The bullet was parallel with the deer. He jumped and ran off. Only drop of blood I found was about dime size on a flat rock. This was on my property so I brought my two German shepherds down to see if would trail him. They are not trained for this being just average pets. They smelled around where the deer was shot, but that was it. So the next day I started a circle search from where the deer was shot and widening it. I found him over 300 yards away and he was all bloated. I hated to see the meat wasted. I switched to that alloy mentioned and I've never had any failures with it.

Sounds like he was in 44man's needs expansion velocity zone...1,600 fps.

The "Magic Velocity" fairy tale strikes again.

My carry gun with or without bears is a Ruger Alaskan w/ 2.5" bbl in 480 Ruger with 325gr Speer Golddot soft points @ 1300fps. 2 legged or 4 legged...don't matter much. Big hole and deep penetration = lots of damage.

Woodrow, that 480 Alaskan is not up to the task.
I'd be happy to take it off your hands tho.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
My carry gun with or without bears is a Ruger Alaskan w/ 2.5" bbl in 480 Ruger with 325gr Speer Golddot soft points @ 1300fps. 2 legged or 4 legged...don't matter much. Big hole and deep penetration = lots of damage.

Woodrow, I had that 325 grain Speer fail to exit on about a 50-lb hog, and that was with the velocity afforded by the 7 1/2-inch barrel. The very next day, I used the same load on a 250-lb hog, and it worked as advertised. I hate inconsistency. I wouldn't bank on that load as a defensive piece, personally. If you really feel you need an expanding bullet, you might want to step up to a 400 grain bullet. JMHO.

To the original question...if bears are very large or a problem then a .41 Magnum would be my minimum.

My normal woods walking guns are:

S&W 357PD
S&W 657 Mountain Gun
Taurus Titanium Tracker
Freedom Arms 97 4.25"

Factory load wise it would be the Speer Deep Curl HP if I want expansion and the CastCore if I want penetraion.

Another favorite for fishing, backpacking, canoeing is the S&W 60-10 3" .357 Magnum with full underlug barrel and adjustable sights. Current load is some old 158 grain jacketed Spire Points...

Bob

Whitworth, is it possible that the small hog offered no "resistance" and soaked up the momentum of the bullet as it was pushed by the bullet? That is the omly explanation I can think of regarding the inconsistency. The Golddot softpoints are very tough bullets in the .429 caliber so why would they be softer in the .475 caliber? I will get some other bullets to trial, including some hard cast.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
Whitworth, is it possible that the small hog offered no "resistance" and soaked up the momentum of the bullet as it was pushed by the bullet? That is the omly explanation I can think of regarding the inconsistency. The Golddot softpoints are very tough bullets in the .429 caliber so why would they be softer in the .475 caliber? I will get some other bullets to trial, including some hard cast.

Woodrow,

I have seen different calibers of the same bullets with different jacket thicknesses as well as different lots of the same bullet appear harder of softer that others. While it would be less likely, due to the construction of the Gold Dots, it may have just been a hard bullet. Certainly having no resistance to upset the bullet is a very plausible explanation for its performance.

I had a Freedom Arms revolver bullet experience a jacket/core separation on an Oryx. Those bullets are supposed to be tougher than nails, but it happened. The jacket was lodged in the broken right femur and the core was found in the liver.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
Whitworth, is it possible that the small hog offered no "resistance" and soaked up the momentum of the bullet as it was pushed by the bullet? That is the omly explanation I can think of regarding the inconsistency. The Golddot softpoints are very tough bullets in the .429 caliber so why would they be softer in the .475 caliber? I will get some other bullets to trial, including some hard cast.

It didn't exit -- no excuses for that. The hog was tiny. If it met with no resistance, it should have easily punched through. There are much better bullets for the .480 from a terminal standpoint. I am just saying that if I carry a revolver for backup duty, I wouldn't compromise it with light expanding bullets. If factory loads are needed, Buffalo Bore makes a great 410 grain WFN load and Grizzly has a great 425 grainer that offer uncompromised penetration. I am assuming that the gun is a defensive piece -- correct? Sorry but this is just my opinion, take it for what it's worth.

Hitman is correct about different calibers featuring different jacket thicknesses. I have seen this before.

Advice well taken. I will try out some of the hard cast in the 400-425gr range.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
Advice well taken. I will try out some of the hard cast in the 400-425gr range.

I do not believe you will be disappointed.

Well all of this discussion and theories, brings me back to a post I started a long while back...

If you could only have one load for everything...

A 240 Hard Cast Keith SWC at 1100 to 1200fps, would be hard to beat.

Throw in a double handful of Speer 44 shotshells, and you would have a good woods combo. Just IMHO, of course.

Add a good controlable Urban defense load, say the 200gr Speer short barreled load, and you have all bases covered...

Put it in a 44 Mag S&W Mountain Gun, with a couple of good holsters, city and woods, with some speed loaders and speed strips, with a lot of practice, and you would be well armed for most situations...

I think you can do a heck of a lot better than a semi wadcutter. Might as well take advantage of the newer and better bullet designs out there. JMHO.

Whitworth

Better than a Keith SWC

The Ghost of Elmer will be upon you...

LBT, my friend, LBT!!

One round, to cover all bases. Maybe not ideal for any one thing, I,ve been goin with .429 WNFPs, 310 grain cast bullets. Lookin for around 1100 fps out of a 5 inch Smith, with #9 powder. That gun, and that round, comfortable to shoot, and carry...
I,ve never personally shot a bear in the head with a hollow point, so I can,t say that I,ve seen em flatten, deflect, fail to penetrate, whatever..
But if I,m puttin my money where my mouth is, I,ve got a lot more faith in solids.

I feel perfectly comfortable carrying my 4" S&W 681 .357 magnum loaded with 158 grain XTPs at just a shade over 1300 fps. Black bears are a remote enough possibility that I don't really worry about them. Mostly I like to carry a handgun because I usually have my beagle with me and she's just dumb enough to want to be friends with coyotes.

If there were more/bigger bears about, I'd probably carry a 4" .44 magnum (probably a Ruger Redhawk) loaded with 310 grain hardcast.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
OK for sake of discussion, how much "power" do you feel is necessary for a carry handgun, when Woods Walking/Fishing/Rifle or Bow hunting?

Consider 2 sceneraios, Bears, and No Bears.
Local animals and 2 legged varmints are a consideration also...

You can include the type of handgun you pick as well.

Lets "try to keep it friendly".

I was happily carrying my 1911 for years until I started archery hunting in Idaho. That was the 1st time I had been in on large bears and my first experience with wolves. Shortly afterwards I purchased a S&W329pd. I wanted something that I would actually carry and yet have a lot more "umph" than a 45acp. When I'm out in the woods I don't care if it will shoot through 3 bad guys back to back.

The key for me is "carry" - it doesn't do any good to leave the hogleg behind because it is just no fun to pack around.

44mag isn't a magic death ray, but it is better than my bare hands and bad breath

Welcome to Idaho. The land of the foreign species the Canadian wolf and all that goes with it.

When I'm out and about in the great outdoors here in Idaho, it's always a question for me as to what shooter to take. If it's in a populated area with a lot of bandidos around my thoughts have gone to a 9mm with some Federal HST 147's in it. When the game is bigger and the area more remote I usually step up the horsepower to a 44Mag with 300grain hard cast at 1,372 fps in a crossdraw holster.

I've entertained some ideas of a tweener in these situations and come up with a Glock 27, short and light at 19 oz so easy to always carry, stuffed with some Federal HST 180g alternating with some 180g hard casts at 1,150 fps. Another tweener for me was a Glock 30 with all hard cast 230g at 965 fps.

Always seems to be a decision time when heading out. Lately my wife is more interested in packing her Glock 19 with those same HST's in it when we head out in the hills. I'm proud of her.

whatever you can shoot extremely well.If you can't pack it comfy you want pack it.So that being said any caliber is better than "bare hands and bad breath". however I think it needs to start with a 4.

dla

I agree with your thinking. I carried my Commander in 45 ACP on my first two black bear hunts. Did not get one of the first trip.

On the second, I crawled into the thick bush 2 different times looking for bears other clients had shot.

After I shot my bear, and saw how big the bones were, and how much fat they carried, [my bear squared 7'- 2"], I have carried a 44 Mag with hard cast bullets eversince when bear hunting, except when I hunt with my 475L, then I carried the 1911 as a backup.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Well all of this discussion and theories, brings me back to a post I started a long while back...

If you could only have one load for everything...

A 240 Hard Cast Keith SWC at 1100 to 1200fps, would be hard to beat.

Throw in a double handful of Speer 44 shotshells, and you would have a good woods combo. Just IMHO, of course.

Add a good controlable Urban defense load, say the 200gr Speer short barreled load, and you have all bases covered...

Put it in a 44 Mag S&W Mountain Gun, with a couple of good holsters, city and woods, with some speed loaders and speed strips, with a lot of practice, and you would be well armed for most situations...

I never really get this. The keith I do, but an LFN would be better.
Whot shot shells? Never use them. Judge paranoid.

The 200 Grain Speer short barreled load? Please explain why .44's need a light bullet, in either .44 Special or .44 magnum as defense loads?
If you are going to use a light bullet, shouldn't it be an LFN, or Keith style, getting the wound channel and penetration from velocity? One of the things that got me out of .44 Special was
the anemic loads offered by factories for defense.

What velocity do folks get with that Speer 325 grain, 1300 fps? I've heard that bullet creates a 4" wide, not very deep hole on hogs, with more velocity.

Still, why don't more folks use the heavy for caliber hollow points, like the 400 grain Hornady XTP, at around 1350 fps?

At worst it would be a 400 grain wadcutter, right? Is it poorly made? What about the heavy for caliber hollow points?


What about Hawk's offerings in .475?

.475 Linebaugh

Flat Points
265 grains x .025 FP...........$40.00
300 grains x .025 FP...........$41.00
350 grains x .025 FP...........$42.00
350 grains x .035 FP...........$47.00
400 grains x .035 FP...........$48.00

Hollow Points
265 grains x .025 HP...........$40.00
300 grains x .025 HP...........$41.00
350 grains x .025 HP...........$42.00

Whitworth I was under the impression the heavy for caliber LFN's in .475 penetrate better then just about anything, rifles included. I guess in the woods that makes a bit of sense, likewise with bears.

P

I carry my 1911 in 10mm with 200gr hardcast LBT style bullets at 1200fps. I also have loaded some 200gr xtps at 1250 that work really well out of my pistol. I don't have to worry about bear here in Southern NV. Mt Lion is a different story. Two legged critters pose the most danger here. When I was working up in Western WA I still carried my 10mm with the hard cast bullets. It is light weight holds 9+1 and that hard cast penetrates very well. If I were to be in part of the country that has big bear then I would be carrying my 5.5" 45lc with 325gr LBT at 1200-1250fps. If my 480 Ruger had a shorter barrel I would carry it. The 7.5 is a bit cumbersome.