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I have done that before and I saw no Elephant, has one been added? I have some of the 510 GNR loaded by Andy Roe and I found the 350 grain bullet to be rather soft and not hold its form very well _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I reloaded my own from Montana Bullet works, worked great on my black bear, was not a hot load either, right around 1200 fps. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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Not really the case. The bullet in question has a really wide meplat. It's a beautiful bullet, just a bit on the light side for my taste. The meplat on the left is a WLN, while the one on the right is the 350 grain bullet being discussed. Excuse the lousy quality of the photo.  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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I have no doubt that it will handel Balck Bear with ease _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Glad you posted that. However, that's a bit of the irony. The meplat is nice and large, despite Reeder seeing red every time someone mentions a large meplat bullet. The other thing that drives him nuts is heavy for caliber bullets, and, well, you can imagine how well he would fit in with this group on that subject. Someone ought to post the bear story where he swears the heavy bullets he used did very little damage to the bear, and that the PH he was with will not allow heavy for caliber handgun bullets now. | |||
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What are you saying, that they are both clueless? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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He and I went back and forth about that bear guide before.. I told him, every bear I shot with a hard cast bullet died within 25 yards of the shot. I have taken 6 black bear, all with WFN gas check bullets. Lots of hogs as well.. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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Are you talking about Gary and his Guide.. I have gone round and round with Gary about hard cast and black bear, my guide loved the results of my WFN hard cast bullets. There was no tracking needed to find my bear. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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I am refering to GS's post, certainly not you. I remember that you hammered your bears with hard cast _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I would not say either are clueless, one had several bad experience's with lost bear, (The Guide) And does not trust hard cast bullets.. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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Oh yea, hard cast all the way for me, wide flat nose for me.. Even in a lot of my big bore rifles. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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One thing that is consistent is that Gary Reeder is selling a product. He identified a niche market, the .510 GNR, and, he tends to favor tales that validate the caliber, his views, and his bullet selection. Combine that with Andy Rowe's dirt cheap ammunition offerings, by far the least expensive .510 Ammunition I can find, and, he may sell a lot of em. He's identified a couple valid concerns, and made his own observations, and come to his own conclusions. Often Mr. Reeder doesn't let facts get in the way of his opinions. Try debating what The Republican congress, and George Bush did with their majority, from about 1997 until they lost it, and, well, it really wasn't a discussion based anywhere in facts. That said, to sell the big bores and the conversions, Reeder has a few good points. 1. Excessive shooting of full power guns can cause nerve damage, flinch, and worse. He's trying to find something his customers can shoot, has his name on it, is a .510, and that they can shoot a lot. Also, from a liability point, if you design a cartridge that harms the user, and, in his case it would be his cartridge, his gun, his design, so he's going to have put himself in a bad situation if the shooter injures himself with repetitive use, and, he, the designer knows the potential for injury, and did nothing about it. Anyway, my point was that he's trying to come up with a .510 that kills like a .500 Linebaugh, without the potential for injury to his customers. In this quest, facts can go by the wayside. Seems most of the guys here that shoot stuff with 525 grain .510 bullets, LFN's, at a measly 1100 fps say they hit and kill like the Hammer of Thor. | |||
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Amen to that sentiment! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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I suggest the outline for Reeders' forum rules are a true clue to a lot of the stuff posted. The forum costs him a lot of money. He wants a return on his product. Therefore every bit of wasted bandwidth that doesn't bring a sale of his product is something he doesn't want to read, and, does not want on his site. He doesn't want you to mention another gunsmith, for that matter. So, if you take that single focus on Reeder's forum, then you can see a consistent focus and goal: Sell people his guns, and, get anything that contradicts that goal out of the forum. One wag that spends a ton of money, and stretches the limit pretty much states that the only reason he gets away with it is he buys a ton of Reeder's products. | |||
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when i was switching from taurus 454 raging bull to a higher quality product, i was looking at gary's revolvers. i asked him how they compared to FA fit and finish, he got real short with me. i didn't order one, i have later seen some and they were really really nice and i intend to order one in the future, but................if i want 350 grain bullets, i will just use my 454, and they are adequate for elephants, if i'm gonna bother getting a 500 at some point (i have a redhawk begging for a customization) i'm gonna shoot BIG bullets. here's my list of powders that have never let me down in any caliber. trailboss.........don't think gary needed a new caliber, he just needed to talk about this powder imho. hs-6, works great in 454, 44 and 475, not sure why it wouldn't in a 500L H110 or W296, perfect for anything approaching full power. i can run loads from mild to wild, shot by my 10 year old daughter to unmanageable by 99% of all shooters, why would i need new calibers? | |||
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Tradmark: I once asked Hamilton Bowen to compare a FA with a custom of his doing. IIRC: He said something like when I get done it will be beautiful, but it will still be a Ruger. However, we now have the best of both worlds: A Ruger made in 17-4 stainless, called a BFR, for less then half the cost of an FA. What are your HS-6 loads for the .475? You forgot the Holy Grail of big cartridges: 4227. Dillons meter it a bit better, or are supposed to, then H110. At least that's what the guys at Dillon said. No problems using it in a 550, for 454 level 45 Colt loads.... | |||
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4227 is very good in the 500 Linebaugh with heavy bullets. W-296/H-110 is the best for top end loads from the 500 JRH and down just as tradmark posted _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I'm usually looking at the bottom of the reloading tables, and, the least pressure possible, without threat of detonation. 4227 is very good for that. As for my shot variation, when using lighter powder charges, and the wrong primers, you can end up with some pretty extreme velocity variations. I was looking for Taffin's article on the .500, and found this primer test. http://www.leverguns.com/artic...johnk/primertest.htm I'm pretty sure Andy Rowe used the winchester primers, primers that give 132 fps extreme spread in this test, with velocity average a full 138 fps lower then the CCI 350's with the same powder. Statistically, those are some really extreme fluctuations, considering the starting point. To start with the winchester primers are a full 18% slower then the CCI 350's. E.S. is nearly the same. What's really scary is how well large rifle primers work in this case. The Federal 215's move the bullets at an average of 977 fps, with only a 28.4 fps variation. Thats 22% faster then the Winchester primers. Anybody using 215 Rifle primers in their .500's? Taffin is usually where I start looking for reloading information, or my old reloading books, but, some of these predate the .500 Linebaugh. http://www.sixguns.com/tests/Tt500.htm "Top loads for the .500 are normally achieved with WW 296 and proper primer choice is absolutely critical. I have found only one primer that will ignite these large doses of WW296 in cold weather and that is CCI's #350 Magnum Pistol Primer. Other pistol primers tried resulted in bullets stuck in the barrel, large amounts of unburned powder clogging both barrel and cylinder and one memorable round that read a whopping 90 feet per second over my Oehler Model 35P. For use in cold weather, I would forgo WW296, normally one of my favorite powders, and stay with #2400, Blue Dot, and H4227. All of these seem much easier to ignite in the big .500 case when the temperature drops." So, seems you better specify your primer if you are ordering from Andy Rowe, CPE. Also, JT's article points out loading for the .500 Linebaugh does have a few quirks and problems that you won't see reloading for lesser calibers. I REALLY liked this test because he listed the Extreme Spread. His groups are pretty darn good, considering it's 25 yards, standing braced, and 35 degrees. | |||
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Seriously GS, have you ever reloded? Rifle primers are not a good idea in these pistol cases. Call John Linebaugh and ask him, he has pressure tested them and presures can be 10,000 greater with rifle primers without a corrosponding increase in velocity. Dot another primer test in a different gun and or different pwoder and or charge weights and get different results. Even different lots of primers will give different results. Every wonder why good reloaders very charge wieghts to even out a load? I enjoy reading Taffin, but all of his data is not good. Case in point Back in the 80's a friend loaded some 350 grain bullets useing a load that Taffin published in an article. Taffin's load called for a charge of W-296 that was so heavily compressed that one shot would break crimp and tye tie the gun up. I doubt that Taffin shot that load with a full cylinder _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Ummmm, large rifle primers are not a good idea. They create way too much pressure. As far as the extreme spread is concerned, it serves you right for using such light bullets in the Maximum. The use of heavier bullets may have resulted in more consistent ignition. The light bullet steps out and dislodges before the primer completes its burn. All around a bad combination. Did you specify LR primers and the light bullets from Andy? "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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You are pretty sure, how? How do you know what Andy Rowe is using for primers? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I asked Andy Rowe after I tested the .500 Linebaugh 350 grain loads. I assumed he would use the 350 CCI. My mistake. Considering the price it was still a decent deal. After that, experience, I moved to his 435 grain bullets, with CCI 350's, and 28 grains of 4227. Guess that's what I get for trying Gary Reeder's ideas. And, no, I don't think I've really loaded anything but .500 Max recently, and some .475, and that was with JRH watching over my shoulder using a rock chucker. Likewise the chronograph results. I'm going to get another Dillon 550, give up on the 650, and go back to a press I spent a lot of time on, but, that was for .45's, when the big guns didn't exist. As for your expertise guys, I admit you have far more experience then I loading the big guns, and, I'm just finding stuff out the hard way. It's really nice by the way, to be out 2 or 3 grand on ammo, and have to tell you you were right about light bullets in the big guns.  I've decided to stay with heavy bullets, low velocity for almost all my needs. | |||
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[Quote}I enjoy reading Taffin, but all of his data is not good. Case in point Back in the 80's a friend loaded some 350 grain bullets useing a load that Taffin published in an article. Taffin's load called for a charge of W-296 that was so heavily compressed that one shot would break crimp and tie the gun up. I doubt that Taffin shot that load with a full cylinder[/QUOTE] Darn. Taffin actually made a mistake? How dare you say that? Next you'll be spitting on God, and saying the Pope is gay. Funny, but Reeder emailed me that Taffin warned him I was a "know it all". Guess that can be applied to you as well. Most of these folks are after a relatively small market, and, they want to get you to follow their products, and give you their money. Their word sells their product. My experience with reloading was pretty limited. I found a couple loads I liked, found a couple calibers I liked, after some experimentation, and stuck with them. Loaded hell out of 451 Detonics, .45 ACP, and, .45 Colt. Didn't have much use for anything else, except rifles, and, that was just .308 pretty much. Forgot test shooting for BRI, but, I didn't load the sabots, I just pulled the trigger when Vern got a sore shoulder. My point is some of us have knowledge of very small specific areas that others don't have. I'm sure you have extensive knowledge in this particular area. I recognize that. I'm only posting what I have experienced in having loads done, and, the little I've reloaded for these calibers. Taffin has to appear to have extensive knowledge in all areas, mainly because he is a real gun crank, and, has probably experienced more stuff with guns others will in 3 lifetimes. Wonderful thing about the internet. It is a place you can meet your heros, and find out some of them are real assholes. | |||
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I wont argue with the guys that stomp on useing large rifle primers in the 500 but will say the round was based on the 348 case and back when we made them our selves the large rifle primers worked just fine. The 500 operates at relitively low pressures to start with and i never had a pressure problem using the. That been said the newer brass is cut for pistol primers and 350s are all i use in the 475 or 500 unless im using a powder faster then hs6. I want reliable ignition and they give it. JWP i know john as well as anyone here and respect him more as well but his take on primers never sat well with me. He uses standard pistol primers for all of his 500 loads. He said he never saw a use for mag pistol primers. Now to defend him he lives where it doesnt get that cold and maybe he gets by with them but ive personaly seen big problems with them using 110/296 and aa9. John in my opinion is probably the most knowlegable pistol smith in the world but he spends alot more time building them then shooting them. If you doubt my knowlege on this. It comes from my own shooting and from the advice of my buddy Al Anderson who is one of Johns best friends. Feel free to ask him if AL knows what hes talking about. Al has pulled the trigger on more linebaugh caliber guns then probably any 5 on here including myself. I wouldnt scare people off with blanket statements on large rifle primers not working or being dangerous. Like any other senerio in handloading its just something you have to have a bit of knowlege to work with. | |||
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John Linebaugh lives in Wyoming, has the climate changed? It gets to zero and below in Wyoming, I guess you don't considere that cold. I have used mine in 30 below zero with the Large magnum pistol primers worked and they worked just fine and they worked just fine for the 7 years that I lived in Alaska, I guess that's not cold either Loyld have you pressure tested any of them, John has and he knows. There is less than 40 grains of powder in the case, no need for a flame thrower to light the powder. The 500's work in low 40,000 PSI for a reason and that is the larger holes in the cylinder, get above this and the saftety margin is gone, but be my guest. No need to advocate it to other though _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Lloyd, GS and I were talking about his .500 Maximum. He was experiencing a wide variation in velocity with the same load and he was using light bullets -- probably would have presented a problem no matter what primer he used with light bullets, but the problem is exacerbated by using LRPs. Had he used a less aggressive primer, it may not have varied so much. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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LLoyd: THANK YOU FOR POSTING. Would you elaborate on the 'big problems' using regular pistol primers and AA 9 in particular? Somehow this got lost in translation. The loads in question started out with the idea of using Gary Reeder's .510 GNR ammo in my Ruger .500 Maximum. (I've got about 100 rounds of Maximum brass that is all loaded with 525 grain bullets, and 296, for 1350 fps. Likely to stay that way.) That said, I ordered well over 1000 rounds of various loads from CPE, Andy Rowe, in .475 and .500 Linebaugh. I originally liked the idea of the smaller case with the lighter bullet that the .510 GNR uses, but, having the bullet seated out seems strange, ugly, and not something I want in my gun. So, instead, I ordered a lot of .500 Linebaugh brass, and had Andy load it with a minimum pressure load behind his 350 grain bullet, using AA 9. The ammo we tested, 5 shots, had extreme velocity variation. The load was 27 grains of No. 9, which should have been right around 1350 FPS. These were the results: 7-2-2010 Ammo velocity testing 500 Linebaugh Recoil Energy of 25 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 21 fps. 350 grain AA9 27 grains .510" 1040 fps 1071 1477 1242 1121 " E.S.=437 fps I asked Andy what primers he had used, and, he said Winchester. I'm pretty sure the Winchester primers are the pistol primers that provided 20% less velocity and extreme variation of around 130 fps, in the testing of primers I posted above. Apparently the Winchester primers work fine, just not in .500 Linebaugh cases. For what I paid for it, I can shoot off the stuff and be happy that I got a good value, if not perfect ammo. 29-30 grains of No. 9 would give velocity in the 1477 fps range. I can't help but think that with the light bullets, attempted pretty much minimum loads, and the wrong primers, well, learn from my mistakes. The last batch from Andy was CCI 350's, 435 grain bullet, 28 grains of 4227. Hoping for around 1200 fps. Hope this clears it up. | |||
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Gumboot I was looking for a project a couple of years ago and always wanted a 50cal that I could carry on my hip. I used ruger blackhawk, 5 shot cylinder and new 5 1/2" barrel. added a bisley grip frame. The cart. is the 500spl. 500Smith shortened to 44mag length. I use 50AI load data. Fun to shoot and easy to carry. | |||
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One wonders why you didn't go with the .500JRH? | |||
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Dale , I,m not familar with that round . Where we now have the 500 S+W there is lots of power available .But in a 4 lb gun with too much recoil . I want as much power as I san handle one handed and keep pullin the trigger . For me the 1 perfect shot is wishful/hopeful thinking .. .My ballistic goal is a 425 ish gr WFN bullet @ 1250 fps . I know I could handle that in a Bisley but would prefer a d a . what are the ballistics for that round ? .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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gumboot, it's a .50 caliber cartridged with a nominal case length of 1.4-inches. The loads bfrshooter and I developed push a 440 grain bullet right around 1,350. It's stout, but controllable. It is a cartridge that is available in the BFR line of revolvers. Oh, and it's really accurate!  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Sorry, I realize now that you were inquiring about the .50 special. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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GS, MikeG an Adminstrator on Shooters Forum and a friend on mine just finnished developing some loads for the 500 JRH using a 44o grain cast bullet with W-296 powder and Winchester Pistol primers. Mike got an SD of 11 You ask, why? work for a couple of reasons 1- the bullet was not light for caliber 2- he adjusted the poeder charge up until the 296 was in its optimum pressure range There is nothing magical about this _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Witworth, alot of this is a learning experience for me . So all the info I can get is great . is th 500 JRH a .510 of .500 diameter bullet ? It seems .500 dia bullets are more redily available .??? .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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The 500 JRH is .500 diameter  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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You can use .500 Smith brass cut down, but the rim will have to be turned down if used in a prodction revolver. It's a great round! Take a look at this: http://www.americanhunter.org/...esearch-bfr-review/] "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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So, the case size difference between the .475 and .500JRH, and the .500 Linebaugh, and .500 Maximum have nothing to do with how well the primers work? With the same logic, I'll be using why not use Winchester pistol primers in my .375 H&H? | |||
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Also if S&W case are used the case portion where the bullet seats will have to be turned to proper thickness inoreder to chamber the loaded round _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Let's see you are now comparing a case with a powder column of about 2 1/4 inches or so with a cartridge that has a powder column of about about 7/8 of an inch or so. Also you are comparing a cartirdge that holds 70 plus grains with one the holds 27 to 30 grains of powder Do you ever think before you post? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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You do realize don't you that most 1000 yard BR shooters use large rifle match promers instead of magnum match primers, don't you? The reason is because the less violent ignition gives a more consistent load with a lower extereme spread and SD _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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