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Today I performed a little penetration test with the 45 ACP and the Buffalo Bore 255 grain hast cast load.. The load is advertised at 925 FPS tradmark has stated over and over that "it is about the bullet" and I totaly I agree it is about the bullet The load and the weapon  The test media waa comprised of 11 gallon milk jugs filled with water  The results the 255 grain hard cast penetrated and exited 9 jugs  The exit in the lwer corner of jug #9 caused the bullet to miss jugs 10 & 11  There is no doubt that this load has enough penetration for a 500+ pound Bear and in my opinion exit an Elk with a rib cage shot placement  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | ||
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jwp, thanks for the test. How was the recoil compared to normal 230gr Ball? Have you done the same test with, normal 230gr Ball or any 44 Mag loads? That would give some kind of comparison. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Nice test. Good work. Thank you | |||
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As soon as I get enogh jugs I will line up 11 more and shoot them with a 240 grain jacketed flat point What brand of factory loaded 240 JFP do you want me to use, I am open to suggestions _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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jwp If I remember correctly you have some Remington 240gr SP and some 240 SJHP factory ammo. I think those would be good to test as both of them have a proven track record on taking not only deer but bigger game as well. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Thanks for the test. That sheds a new light on the subject. | |||
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In the test today the 255 grain hard cast penetrated over 56" inches, not bad at all I think after looking at the link that you posted _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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From looking at Steves Pages results, it looks like most of the bullets tested are good for personal protection, until they are shot through clothing. Then they behave like a SWC, ie. giving a lot of penetration... Both in hunting and personal protection, the lack of penetration has caused far more problems than over penetration... In actual Police shootings 85+% of shots MISS, so why worry about overpenetration on the 15% that do hit??? Penetration is Most important... I will admit that some times I do carry some low penetration rounds in my gun when I know I might be shooting in a situation where the bad guy will be up close and I will be in a highly populated area, like a store or a resturant. Since the bad guy will be close I do not think I will miss "too many times".  However after the first 6, I think everybody still alive will be hiding behind something,So I will be reloading with some penetrating ammo...  DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I'll look but I believe that I am out of the Remington 240 JFP, but I do have some Fiocchi and Winchester White Box 240 JFP. I belive that the Fiocchi will out penetrate the Winchester since they are rther soft and over expand I have the Remington 240 SJHP and I know from experience that this bullet is soft and expands very wide _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Well, shoot the Remington 240 SJHP and the WW 240gr SP White box. That would be a good comparison, IMHO. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Here is a test of cowboy rounds. Note the 3rd page, and, the keith bullet blowing through a bunch of jugs: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot28.htm | |||
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| Moderator |
I know from personal experience these bullets blow BIG holes through deer on broadside shots. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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I agree with you completely. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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JWP; When I introduced our 44 mag, 405 grain load at 1020 fps on this forum, and stated that the "straight line" penetration of 13 one gallon jugs was enough to do the deed on "anything"....well, many said that all that was BS. You have proven (as Tradmark has stated), and as I have known for a long time, that it is the shape, weight, mass, alloy, and momentum of the bullet at point of impact that determines penetration. Whitworth has some of our 405's for a test, and I am waiting for him to post his results. I have no doubt that the 405 will duplicate what your test has proven, and our tests have proven as well. Any decent large bore handgun bullet at a "moderate" velocity will perform well within "normal" handgun range. Thanks for taking the time to prove this out!!!! | |||
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No one ever said it wouldn't though a few of us did question the wisdom of such a heavy-for-caliber bullet as the length could affect stability in the media (or flesh for that matter). I have been an advocate of moderate velocity all along. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Yes they will, the damage from them in the deer that I shot was MASSIVE.... _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Whit; If you ever get motivated and try them, you will see that they drive straight and true...even in seasoned/aged hickory and walnut hardwoods, which are brutal on a bullet, the 405's performed. Penetration was always deep and straight with the 405 at 1020. My big concern was the bullet stabilizing in the Ruger 1-20 twist, and whether it be on "paper" at longer ranges, or into all sorts of media, this 405 never showed any signs of instability. Be that as it may, "any" large bore handgun need only drive a "suitable" bullet at moderate velocity to get the job done (at normal handgun ranges)....providing the bullet is up to the task. Take the heaviest "suitable" bullet for your 500 and drive it at a bit over 1000 fps, and you will be amazed...if you havent done that already. Its all about the bullet.........Just my opinion here, but too much velocity is disruptive to good penetration performance. Some of the best African large game calibers were very moderate in the ballistics they produced (compared to todays standards). Look at the 45 Black Powder Express (45 BPE)...a 365 grain bullet at 1700 fps....Selous killed hundreds of head of large African game with that cartridge...just as cleanly as is done with todays modern rounds with larger bore diameters and higher velocities. | |||
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Ah yes, how to define "suitable." I think in .429 caliber, 300 - 320 grains is suitable and will probably stabilize better in media (including flesh) as well as in flight. We'll see. It's not a matter of motivation, it's a matter of time and other obligations. I still think that if you are going to want that much weight, you will benefit greatly with added diameter. Shooting through wood doesn't necessarily translate to good performance in game -- wood is solid enough to ensure straight line penetration. Until this load/bullet combination is actually used on game, all of this is conjecture. How do we define moderate velocity? "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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A few points. 1- Ross Seyfried wrote about trying 400 grain bullets in the 45"S and found them to rival the penetration of the 475L in test media, but found them to penetrate poorly in game. Ross's conclusion was that the bullets did not properly stabilize in the twist used in handguns and I concur 2- Define "Moderate velocity" 1400 FPS is "slow" compared to rifle velocity 3- Higher velocity will equate to more tissue damage to vital organs 4- Untill an animal is taken with the 400 grain bullet in 44 mag at 1000 FPS the jury is out on performance. Higher velocity also aid in stabilization 5 notice that in the test I did the small meplat bullt did not penetration perfectly straight. to ward the end of the penetration path the bullet went off line and exited the nineth jug low right rear corner missing the tenth jug 4- the 400 grain 44 bullet may work well on game, but at this point it is an unknown. I hope that it does work well on game.... _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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JWP; Around the end of April I will be driving right by your house....now, do I have to drop some of these off so you can prove it to yourself, or, will you take my word for it (I doubt it )?!?!?!?! | |||
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Just drop off loaded rounds and I will buy a pig if need be to give them a proper test Drop off plenty, I may miss with a few _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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.............on my way back by your place (from Houston) can I expect some BBQ'd pork?  | |||
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That is some gritty looking water... | |||
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It's sweet tea - it's the south afterall "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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JWP: All of your concerns about the .44 magnum are noted. Please explain why the 525's in the .500 Linebaugh are so effective? | |||
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525 grains in a .510 is not that long with respect to the diameter. 405 grains in .429 is longer than half the case length. That goes way beyond what is considered heavy for caliber. Remember that the rifle guys shooting .510 calibers are using 570s and 600s. Granted, they can get more velocity out of them, but when your bullet is eating up precious case capacity, you hope you can get "enough" velocity -- whatever that may be. I would think more speed is necessary to stabilize in flight and in penetration (animal medium). It's a REALLY LONG BULLET (1.10-inches). I will photograph one later. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Meplat width is about 77% percent of body diameter, a proper nose shape and very stabile plus the fact that the composition of the cast is near perfect in hardness and holds it's form well and leaves a LARGE wound channel _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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anyone tried 700 grain nose cutoff bmg cast bullets yet?  | |||
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Jack Huntington did in the .50/110 and reports horendous recoil. But they weren't tested for any practical use. Ranger Rick sells 700 grain .50-caliber bullets to be used in the .500 Smith. I know some who have tested them but have not shot them past 25 yards and I haven't heard any reports on the way they work on game. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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That is one thing that I like about this forum....I can come on here and make a statement and everything I say is wrong, wont work, cant work, cant be done. Nothing in ballistics is written in stone, and, if you open up your minds and think outside the box, you might be surprised at what can be achieved...like excellent penetration from a too long, too heavy, too slow moving 44 mag bullet! | |||
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flat top, have you or anyone else shot any game with this bullet/load? How does it really penetrate? "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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No one has proclaimed "can't." The difference is that you have proclaimed it to work without acctualy knowing if it will or will not work on live game and only when used on game will anyone know for sure. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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JWP; In our side by side tests the 44, 405 penetrated 13 jugs.....a 45-70, 525 at 1550 penetrated 9 jugs....your 45 ACP penetrated 9 jugs. I have no doubt that "any of the above" would get the job done....By the way, I hunted (and shot) a number of deer with the 45 ACP and it did a fine job...actually, it was a bit much for deer...thats why I downsized to the 44 Special after that. | |||
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Water jugs, have no hair, hide, bones or flesh. Of course you are ignoring the results that I posted that Ross Seyfried had. Bullets did extremely well in testing but did not do well when used on animals. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| Moderator |
You have been asked several times have you shot game with this bullet. Yes or no; quit dancing around the subject. So I am asking you; have you shot any game with your 405 grain .44 bullet; yes or no? If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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As promised the 44 mag test with the 240 grain JFP  The 10 jugs  The board tipped over at the shot and the jugs all fell on the ground. I placed them back on the board for the photo in the order that I believed they were in originaly  The load penetrated through and exited 7 jugs. The exit in jug 7 was high and right and missed jug 8   Entrance in the first jug  Damage to the first 3 jugs  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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That is our public drinking water, there is a lot of iron in it. The state claims it is safe to drink, but is it? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Only if you dont mind being magnetic. I just checked with the originator of the 405 grain load, and asked him if anyone had used the load on game yet. He said no, but, the load is being carried and will be used when the opportunity arrises. I also told him that some on this forum had doubts about the load....he told me "anyone that has doubts is welcome to stand in front of it". So, for me that pretty much sums it up. I will now leave "dream world" and go back to the real world. | |||
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Try numbering your jugs from now on. I'll send you a magic marker if need be. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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