Big bore, my customer is a very soft spoken fellow and I have never seen him get angry. His attitude is always polite and I have his E mail to Baker also. There is nothing to indicate anger.
OK, you have a gun with tight tolerances (Not that we have seen as far as the bore, the new barrels were measured first before shooting.) Does this mean lead can not be shot? For your information ALL leading (Almost none, by the way.) was removed and the gun cleaned before any jacketed and vice versa.
Now let us say a tiny speck of lead is missed, would a jacketed bullet then bend the bore out of round? How many of you shoot jacketed to remove leading? I don't do it but it is common. Have all of you ruined your barrels?

bfrshooter
one of us
Posted 12 November 2007 04:14 Hide Post
I'm not going to say it, I'm not going to say it. OK, I will. Why does Freedom say to leave an empty chamber under the pin????? A 4 shot revolver no less. Don't they trust thier system? It looks good to me, not like the old Colt revolvers that would shear the trigger if dropped and fire. Of course the Freedom could break the trigger but it should not fire. I will stick with putting 5 shots in it. I put 5 in the BFR's and 6 in the Rugers and S&W's.
The only guns I consider unsafe for this are the old original Rugers and Colts and their copies.
It is hard to believe that Colt never upgraded the single action. Neither have any of the Colt clones.

One seems to contradict oneself after reading a previous post. Earlier in this thread bfr states he would only put 4 crtdgs in a FA. In a different area he says 5. Make up your mind sir, which is your "professional" advice 4 or 5 ???!!!!!!!?????????

This is a very dangerous and maybe fatal flaw in the design.
If I owned one I would immediately check this. You can do it easy be seeing if the hammer is all the way down or just push a cleaning rod with a jag on it through the bore and cylinder to see if the hammer moves back when the jag touches the firing pin. An unsafe condition is when the pin is projecting so the jag can push on it. A gun in this condition is only safe with 4 rounds in the chambers.



The above is from the the first post that started this controversy. BFR please make up your mind. Do you like FA or not. Will you advise to load 4 cartridges or five. All of us here are awaiting you reply.

An interesting thread. I can't speak as to the design flaw of the mdl 83, as I don't own one and hence can't pull it apart to fully understand the issue. Can a fully loaded, i.e. round in every chamber mdl 83 be dangerous? Absolutely, as my co-workers husband was killed by an acccident with just such a gun.

Is the mdl 83 a fine gun? Yes, the finest revolver I've ever shot was a limited run mdl 83 called the Alaskan Master Guide series, a 5 1/2" mdl 83 that was roundbutted. I regret that I didn't have the $ to by my friends when I had the opportunity.

As to Rabbit Creek aka Monte, yes he does know plenty about big bore sixguns, and I've fired several of his FA mdl 83's, as well as other custom Ruger SA's. No, his interpersonal skills won't get him elected to public office

Was the originaly post education or inflamatory, perhaps a bit of both. Are some FA owners a bit over sensitive to any criticism of their six (er five) gun of choice, sure, just as any group who is fond of a paticular gun.

The safest way to carry any gun is with an empty chamber, long gun or short gun. You can't be safer than having nothing for the firing pin to drop on.

BTW, I do have an old model ruger sa that has not, and will not have the safety bar fit. I'm content to carry it with an empty chamber under the hammer.

i think the final answer to this question can be summed up by the demand for
FA arms revolvers. obviously they have a hard time selling them.

it is true though, that the bfr is not getting it's due. it's so far above the ruger grade it's ridiculous. is it possible to like more than one brand of gun

I will sound like an idiot here telling on myself, but I just HAVE to get in here...

The summer of 1997 I was talking to a friend at work who had been shooting IHMSA since the early 80s, right after Elgin Gates started the game... I was also casting a 275-grain (nominal) bullet in .410, as well as a 250-grain spitzer style that was custom cut.

My friend at work took a handful of my bullets to the IHMSA Internationals at Fort Stockton, TX, and showed them to Randy Smith. When he came home, he handed me two cards: one from Randy Smith, the Marketing Director for FA (at the time), and one from another individual, a man in Oregon, if memory serves. I was told that Randy wanted to talk to me. So I called him.

In short, he asked me for 50 of each bullet, cast of pure linotype, and requested I never say to anyone that I had sent him the bullets.

In early November I was in Idaho hunting elk, and once my buddy and I found my bull, I had a day or two to goof off, so I drove to Freedom. Randy met me, introduced me to Wayne Baker, and we all talked. I was shown the prototype of what became the 654 Silhouette, and was told I didn't see the revolver. Randy also told me that my cast bullets were used to set the cylinder length for the revolver, and they were the first bullets sent downrange out of the prototype. Okay, so what?

Well, I bought a 654 and played the IHMSA game for a while... The same friend that showed the bullets to Randy told me when I got my revolver to be "determined when you cock that revolver, and do it smartly." I subsequently ended up with timing notches that looked like I had been fanning the revolver. 17-4 is strong, but hard cocking will damage the timing notch. And that is what I did, by cocking the revolver as hard as I did, I set the cylinder mass spinning too fast, and the timing notches showed the results. BFRSHOOTER, so help me if you ridicule this as being another weakness in FAs I will leave this site. You simply don't know what you are talking about...

But when I sent the firearm back, FA replaced the cylinder free of charge. I was accused of fanning the revolver, and told the man on the other end of the phone I had done no such thing. Now, I ask you: knowing that the cylinder is inserted into the frame, the barrel is removed and all five chambers are line-bored through the frame to ensure everything is centered and then the barrel is replaced, how much did FA lose by taking care of me gratis? I would offer you the idea that it probably would have paid one of their machinists two or three days wages.

Ask me why I am faithful to FA, and I will tell you the above story once more. The preceeding should also tell you why rantings like bfrshooter's get under my skin...

bfrshooter, did you ever have a situation during your IHMSA days where you and FA got crosswise? I have to wonder... Nothing personal, I just wonder. Because it seems to me you have grit in your craw about FA that nothing on the face of this world is going to get rid of. And I truly wish that were different, if it is the case.

Take care, guy.

I have stated over and over that I love the fit and finish and the perfect machining and would love to have several. However I don't think I would buy anything other then the .41 or .44. My gripe is that they have design issues that should be fixed. All of my customers carry 5 or 6 rounds in their guns even after reading the ONE warning. They all believe that the parts work as stated. That is my gripe. I have to warn them.
Some calibers should have the frame and cylinder lengthened a little, some should have the twist changed.
NO, I don't hate the gun, just the stubborn attitude of Baker and some owners.
Even Ruger pulled the .480 off the market until they fixed it with a 5 shot cylinder. They too, were too darn stubborn to make it right the first time.
ALL I WANT IS FOR THE ISSUES TO BE FIXED and to stop putting parts in the gun that don't do what they were designed to do. Then make the gun more reloader friendly even though they all state that reloads should never be fired.
I do NOT hate the gun or Freedom arms but get a little out of sorts when everyone knows things could be better yet defend them tooth and nail.
The same with Marlin and the 1 in 38 twist in the .44 mag. Does that make me hate Marlins? NO. Pressure has made Marlin change the .444 to 1 in 20, yet everyone defends the .44 mag when it can be 100% better if they complained enough. Then if you accidently dry fire a Marlin just ONCE, the firing pin can break. Is this an issue, you bet your life. Why don't they fix it???
Everyone bitches about the Ruger .45's with undersize throats and everyone agrees. But when a Freedom is found with oversize, out of round bores, even mentioning it is a hanging offense. GUYS DEFEND IT AND MAKE EXCUSES FOR IT.
This is what makes me taunt some of you because too many accept a $2000 gun with flaws that can and should be fixed.
Freedom should get rid of all of those useless parts and put in REAL transfer bars. They should pay more attention to barrel specs. Line boring does not fix bad barrels.
And don't anyone here tell me they can't get a perfect trigger with transfer bars.
S&W has a hammer block that has worked forever with fully loaded cylinders.
It is the hard headed response of Freedom owners that has kept them from improving and advancing and that is the only thing that will save them.

quote:

And don't anyone here tell me they can't get a perfect trigger with transfer bars.
S&W has a hammer block that has worked forever with fully loaded cylinders.

Guys, I am lost here. bfr talks about transfer bars and hammer blocks as if they were the same thing. I do not believe they are, but perhaps someone can educate me? In this same thread, back in May of '07 I thought we agreed that the FA (in the caliber under discussion) did not have a transfer bar. I guess bfr is saying that they should? I don't know. Then he talks about hammer blocks on S&Ws. I routinely remove mine as soon as I get them as the drag that they cause is noticeable.
Peter.

Everyone must remember that anyone that can hold 3 inch groups offhand with his revolver and can occasionally hit a pop can too like BFRSHOOTER can must always be listened to.
I bet he and Monte (50AE) are identical twins.

Well, I guess all I can say after reading your response is this: if I were building a revolver, I think I would build it like I wanted it. I am old enough to know that there are folks that just cannot be pleased. Period. The older we get the more opinionated we are, because we know more.

Having said all that, I sincerely wish you would buy a .41 from FA. I will say right up front that the 275-grain NEI I cast (290+ out of wheelweights) fits the cylinder just fine, and the 1-in-14 twist in my 654 does wonders for that heavy bullet. You have seen me post that I have gotten 1800fps out of that bullet. I will repeat that. How much more do you need?

If you want to shoot heavier bullets in your revolvers, the twist has to be faster, and pressure goes up even more... FA is not going to build revolvers that shoot the extra-heavy bullets because of the energy vs. velocity issue. Double the weight at the same velocity and energy doubles; double the velocity of the same bullet, and the energy is squared. It is just that simple!

Peter, they are not the same but serve the same function, to keep the firing pin from hitting the primer unless the trigger is pulled. Ruger, BFR and many single and double actions have transfer bars. S&W has a hammer block. Why anyone would remove it is beyond me. If you can feel that drag you are unbelievable. I suppose you still load 6 rounds too.
Freedom claims to have both but they are not to be trusted. WHAT IN THE HELL DID THEY PUT THEM IN THE GUNS FOR? If anyone can explain that, I will call you nuts.

"WHAT IN THE HELL DID THEY PUT THEM IN THE GUNS FOR?"
They put them in so you can carry 5 instead of 4...it does require that you know enough to set the safety, and, of course, that it works... dvnv

quote:

Originally posted by Me_Plat:
Everyone must remember that anyone that can hold 3 inch groups offhand with his revolver and can occasionally hit a pop can too like BFRSHOOTER can must always be listened to.
I bet he and Monte (50AE) are identical twins.

You know, I've shot extensively with bfrshooter and I have hunted with him. I can honestly say that he is a remarkable marksman with a handgun. I thought I was good until I started hanging out with him........

There are definately some folks that can do things with handguns that one wouldn't think possible if they hadn't seen it with their own eyes.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:

I understand Baker is in dire financial straights going from 70 workers to 5. Gee, I wonder why?

I don't know if there is any truth in this or not but hope this is another "fact" that you have gotten mixed up. My question is this; WHY would you take such apparent glee in the demise of an American firearms manufacturer? You're entiltled to an opinion but there is obviously some sort of personal axe to grind. If you don't like the doggone things don't buy them.

Btw... While I can't consistently hit pop cans in the next zip-code I do own three BFR's (almost embarrassed to admit that) and two FA's. The FA owners manual states repeatedly (Not just once) the warning against having a loaded round under the firing pin. If I choose to carry a Model 83 with 5 rounds loaded and trust the HAMMER SAFETY POSITION I've been duly warned.

I sure am glad he is a "remarkable marksman". Now if he can just get those 3 inch groups smaller he may hit those pop cans more than occasionally.
Evidentally he is more accurate with his shooting than his knowledge of a hammer block and a transfer bar.

Me_Plat, I don't know where your 3-inch claim comes from, but you don't have to resort to insulting the man. These discussions don't have to turn into a pissing contests. We can all agree to disagree without resorting to insults.

I have been watching this thread "unwind" and it strikes me funny that there is so much given to a design that was obsoleted many years ago. Kind of like arguing which brand of 8-track player is better...

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:

quote:

And don't anyone here tell me they can't get a perfect trigger with transfer bars.
S&W has a hammer block that has worked forever with fully loaded cylinders.

Guys, I am lost here. bfr talks about transfer bars and hammer blocks as if they were the same thing. I do not believe they are, but perhaps someone can educate me? In this same thread, back in May of '07 I thought we agreed that the FA (in the caliber under discussion) did not have a transfer bar. I guess bfr is saying that they should? I don't know. Then he talks about hammer blocks on S&Ws.
I routinely remove mine as soon as I get them as the drag that they cause is noticeable.
Peter.

And not one answer to his question.
Shame on you guys!
Why are these forums here but to help one another and to educate?

My dad told me YEARS ago:
“The difference between ignorance and stupidity is that an ignorant person has not yet learned, but a stupid person has learned but fails to acknowledge his education. There is nothing wrong with admitted ignorance, but there is plenty wrong with stupidity.â€

A transfer bar “transfers†the action of the hammer by moving “into†place as the trigger is pulled, allowing the hammer to strike the firing pin. (RUGER, etc.)

A hammer block, blocks the hammer from striking the firing pin until the trigger is pulled, and then moves out of the way to allow the hammer move fully forward to strike the firing pin. (S&W, etc.)

I have been shooting with guys for several years having a collective shooting experience in the 100’s of years, maybe more like a couple 1000 years. Some have over 70 years shooting experience individually.
I have learned lots from these guys, because they have all been there, done that.
The most important thing they have taught me is to be familiar with the weapons you handle.

That being said, unless it is a replica of and old design (Colt SAA, clones, etc.) and for authenticity and parts interchangeability reasons it uses the older (obsolete?) and less safe design, when you handle a modern factory firearm, especially something as “universal†as a revolver (SA or DA), it should be a relatively familiar, safe and uncomplicated design. You really shouldn't have to out think a revolver.

I have shot and owned many, many different types and brands of revolvers. FA, BFR, S&W, Colt(SA &DA), Ruger (SA &DA), Dan Wesson, Taurus, as wells as other revolver makes of supposedly less stellar quality.
If my old Model 29-3 S&W 44Mag can have a SA trigger pull as nice as the FA’s I have shot (and a relatively light and smoooooth DA pull), in the opinion of vetran shooters other than myself, why can’t FA do it with some sort of workable safety that is passive?

I have no bones with FA, but I can see the point in utilizing a passive safety that works as others manufacturers have done for years.


I almost forgot, I NEVER remove any passive safety on a firearm unless I am the only one to EVER handle that firearm. To do so is inviting tradgedy beyond comprehension.
Rather than remove the safety, take it to someone who knows S&W triggers (or send it to S&W Performance Center, that's what I did) and have it tuned. It didn't cost much and it is unbelievably crisp.

I've stayed out of this long enough. I own a few FA 83's and have ABSOLUTELY no problem with the "safety" block on the FA's. It takes a small bit time to learn the new gun's working parts and after having read the brochures that came with the guns, common sense usually dictates what you ought to do. Having learned to use the block, I carry my FA's with 5 rnds, thank you.

New guy on the block.

Have an FA83. I like it very much. It represents me and what I believe in. Like me, it isn't perfet nor does it represents me perfectly. To wit: I appreciate precision and quality. However, my preference is coil springs, transfer bars etc.. I expect to carry a full load. The peacemaker has a colorful history and proudly so. Were there accidents? Probably more than we'll ever know as before media, they quietly buried their mistakes. Oh, I could've gotten a 97 but but I liked the 83 w/its benchmark caliber and really no different that the followers/enthusiasts of the colt peacemaker.

Now, as a 'seasoned' citizen having survived many things/events to be thankful for, I make it a point to become familiar w/those and that which I love.

I too noticed the slidding dog/block on the hammer. Never seen it before in my years of shooting but then again, never had an FA83 before either. I could see wet lube indicating a slidding movement takes place but couldn't actually see it move. Determined that its major movement is in the final movement of the hammers travel. Its manual safety does work on mine.

What more can be said? I'm old enuff to recall the early days of people bad-mouthing Weatherby rifles when most of us couldn't afford one and that was accepted because we didn't feel poor if we weren't tying/wanting to purchase one. We just accepted that they're no good and didn't want one ~ until I took one on a trade ~ wow!

All that said ~ 'Who charges into battle at the sound of an uncertain/hesitant trumpet (bugler)? Likewise w/credibility. 'The right words fitly spoken is better than apples of gold in a picture of silver'. Very few people will accept a 'chicken little ~ the sky is falling' alarm. Indeed, its tough enuff to convince people of a flood w/o precedence yet while standing next to a boat/ark. It too w/o precedence. Yes, that will get attention but little acceptance of ones case.

In closing a brief comment about legalese. Because of legal precedence, business's must say things to protect themselves and their continued existance. Thats my take on the 4 vs 5 in this case. They're marketing to cross-cut of not only our society but around the globe. They can say something and we 'hear', understand and react differently just as some of you will see this post differently than what/how I meant it to be but we try. This benefit of doubt/interpretation becomes a real thing in the hearing. One may be assured what will stand in court will be the manufacturers documented, conservative recommendation. I on the other hand have elected to carry 5 realizing I am on my own, responsible and accountable for my actions.

This not to offend anyone ~ be kind to the newcomer :-) See the disclaimer in my Sig:

There ABSOLUTELY must be something in the water down there in WV!!!

FN in MT

FA M-93 .454 Cassull
FA M-97 .44 Spcl