have to laugh at this whole post! Guess a guy shouldnt be aloud to own a colt either. Instructions!!! Hell if your that stupid you just get a paper cut reading them and probably sue the paper company, the gun company and God to if you could get away with it.

quote:

Originally posted by kenoneill:
Freedom Arms doesn't put a transfer bar on the Mdl. 83, and never did. They never called it one. It isn't there. It never was. How the hell is it supposed to work if it doesn't exist?
This type and frequency of post is too tiring.

Rabbitcreek,

If you want to contribute some information or useful knowledge to the forum, by all means do so. If you want to have a soapbox for what seems to be a personal vendetta, take it somewhere else. To be honest, $20k in FA revolvers just isn't that many.

Either that, or explain it a little better. I didn't understand a word of it! I think we should make English the official language of this forum.
Peter.

Like I said, if he has something meaningful to add to the discussion, by all means add it. Personal attacks are not tolerated on this forum.

it's funny, as i'm a very perfectionist type, i hate anything not perfect, and i've yet to have a freedom arms revolver not be perfect, sure something gonna slip out the door at some point, but i've yet to see it.

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
it's funny, as i'm a very perfectionist type, i hate anything not perfect, and i've yet to have a freedom arms revolver not be perfect, sure something gonna slip out the door at some point, but i've yet to see it.

Ditto! Since this whole "stink" erupted I bought two Mod 83's and am nothing but pleased with fit, finish and function. Next will be a Mod 97 in .41 or .44 spl.

quote:

Originally posted by monte burgher:
In my not so humble opinion, a brief FAQ should be pinned on every firearm forum regarding the instructions of the so called Freedom Arms safety device used on their Model 83.

The short of it is, that hunters have died and have been injured in the field because the FA was loaded with five rounds and the hammer struck inadvertantly.

The FA 83 should have a transfer bar, the 97 has one for crying outloud.

When folks here head to the bush full of adrenaline and bear tales it's a mite difficult to convince them to just load four cartridges.
Even the owner of FA Bob Baker mentioned he had both his FAs (.475 & 454) fully loaded on a recent brownie hunt in which he fired all ten rounds.

As an RSO at both public ranges I mention the safety problems involved with both the old Rugers and the 83 and yet mostly recieve a blank look or a, "why would I only carry 4 or five when it holds more?"

A holstered and fully loaded Ruger OM Blackhawk .44 Mag nearly removed a gals leg when the guns hammer bumped into the jeep. The wounds from a near contact distance 180HP nearly killed the gal.

We as part of the gun community need to get the word out that certain firearms require special care, have ya checked out any old Remington triggers for safety lately?

If you're still around I want you to source your "hunters have died and been injured in the field because a FA was loaded with 5 rounds." Died? When and where? Injured? How many incidents? When and where?

any product you choose not to follow the directions on is not the fault of the manufacturer. it is not their responsibility to make it so you can't not follow the directions, it's our responsibility as consumers and in particular as gun enthusiasts not to be morons, not FA's responsibility, or remingtons.

and yes, one complete idiot from ohio was hurt severely b/c he didn't follow the directions and won the first part of his suit, hopefully mr. baker will pursue this moron and appeal repeatedly.

Man, I thought this thread died years ago.... I am still waiting for someone to sue God because he let them be born idiots. That said, normally keeping four holes filled on the FA, I have yet to shoot off my foot, good thing too, I think the 454 might take off a few toes and its hard to pick up women with only 7 toes.

My guess is that this thread is being started by someone who has financial interests in creating a rumors of a design flaw. I wish that we could get some type of legal reform so that the product would only be defective if it caused injury when used as intended.

John

I feel the morons are the companies that design hammer block safety's and transfer bars that wear out or don't work as stated, then warn you ONCE that after all the design work, don't load a round under the hammer.
We all know of the safety problems with the old Colts and Rugers but Ruger solved the problem real simple and you can beat on the hammer with a sledge without firing the gun. Hundreds of guns have fool proof systems so why does Freedom have systems that takes hundreds of dollars worth of machining, then are not safe? Why didn't they go with the original Colt system and put 100 warnings in the paper work?
Seems to me they didn't want to pay royalty's. Maybe they wanted all the clicks, safety, half cock and full cock. A bunch of shit when hunting and trying to pull back the hammer without making noise. Sounds great at cowboy shoots though.
I can't side with any of you for Freedom when they could have made a safe gun, fully loaded, without advertising how great the hammer block is and how safe the transfer bar is, then tell you it is not safe to leave a loaded round under the hammer.
I have a bridge to sell!

One other thing, if the gun is used for IHMSA that takes 5 shots at each stage. If you have a 5 shot revolver that is not safe fully loaded, it should NOT be legal at a shoot unless you load 4 and then reload 1 more.

well, i blame anyone that doesn't read the manual, bfrshooter, i think the warnings are obvious and unlike most, i don't think any company needs to state a warning more than once and don't have an obligation to incorporate any particular design others might use. it's our job as consumers to decide what we want. if consumers felt freedom arms needed to change a design and forced them to do so by drops in sales that'd be fine, but an idiot in ohio and a judge, now that's a different story.

bfr,

You remain to be the loud minority in this matter; I would almost say the sole voice.

One of the things lost when Ruger went to the new system was an excellent trigger pull.

Apparently the decision makers at IHMSA have a different notion as to the functioning safety of a FA on the firing line and chose not to require a ridiculous scenario you propose for competition purposes.

Let's leave this dead horse alone.

The following is a quote from the Model 83 owner's manual.

"As a firearm owner, you assume very demanding
responsibilities. A firearm is a potentially dangerous product and must always be treated as such."

The same paragraph further states the following: "The safe handling of your Freedom Arms® revolver is YOUR responsibility.".

This pretty much sums it up as far warnings go; as well as just who's responsible for the safe use of the revolver.

quote:

If you want to contribute some information or useful knowledge to the forum, by all means do so. If you want to have a soapbox for what seems to be a personal vendetta, take it somewhere else. To be honest, $20k in FA revolvers just isn't that many.

Hmmm, Hitman eh? Chuckle, your comment bring to mind the question, how many FAs are in YOUR collection then?
As a MOD are you not supposed to bring some neutrality as it appears you are taking sides and not mediating nor moderating.

"You remain to be the loud minority in this matter; I would almost say the sole voice."

Our country was formed to allow the minority equal footing wasn't it? A MINORITY created our revolution against the Brits as I recall?

Someone mentioned the olde dead horse beating and I have to agree tho I'm sorely tempted to email Hannity and Savage to come visit this curious group of Muslim fans.

Good Day Sirs!

quote:

Originally posted by Rabbit Creek:

quote:

If you want to contribute some information or useful knowledge to the forum, by all means do so. If you want to have a soapbox for what seems to be a personal vendetta, take it somewhere else. To be honest, $20k in FA revolvers just isn't that many.

Hmmm, Hitman eh? Chuckle, your comment bring to mind the question, how many FAs are in YOUR collection then?
As a MOD are you not supposed to bring some neutrality as it appears you are taking sides and not mediating nor moderating.

"You remain to be the loud minority in this matter; I would almost say the sole voice."

Our country was formed to allow the minority equal footing wasn't it? A MINORITY created our revolution against the Brits as I recall?

Someone mentioned the olde dead horse beating and I have to agree tho I'm sorely tempted to email Hannity and Savage to come visit this curious group of Muslim fans.

Good Day Sirs!

Why don't you then?

It would be interesting to see blind idiots like these two, who would not know the truth if it smacked them at both ends, have to say on an open forum.

AR does not depend on Robert Murdoch's pockets being filled by advertiser posing as news, and the blind sheeple swallow it hook, line and sinker.

[ $20k in FA revolvers ]
In the year 1997 my model 83 cost with tax and S&H $1986.00. There were other options I could have ordered, such as additional cylinders for around $370.00 each. If you had said $100K then I would be impressed with the number of guns you have worked with.
Another thing that has crossed my mind and made me go to the safe and double check before I open my mouth is the half-cock safety. The firing pin is on a spring and with the gun on safe I have been unable to set off a primer even after wrapping the hammer with a soft hammer. I have carried mine with 5 rounds many times and have not so far experienced any problems.
Andy

Okay, I can no longer stay silent. Let me start out by saying that I don't have a dog in this fight, but I would like to make an observation based on the tone of the replies to this thread. Freedom Arms owners seems to get very defensive if anyone levels any criticism at their beloved revolvers. Why is this? I know that the price of admission for owning an FA product is higher than what I would consider perhaps more practical revolvers like BFRs, but why is this debate so emotional? Just curious, so don't send the lynch mob after me!

No fight, just a Freedom owners mindset against facts. They can run down all the guns I own and I would never get that defensive. Some of my guns are ugly and I would agree with them about that.
As far as Ruger losing a good trigger pull, when did they ever have one? The old model was VERY hard to get a good pull on but the current ones are very easy and anyone with any sense can make them better.
My list; Old Army-30 oz.
SBH-24 oz.
.475 BFR-26 oz.
45-70 BFR-19 oz.
.45 Vaquero-24 oz.
Both Mark II's- 28 oz.
Every Freedom brought here needed trigger work to lighten them so what is the big deal?

Whitworth,

Mark Twain spoke rather eloquently on the subject of remaining silent; absolutely wonderful advice for walking around.

It is no secret that I own several FAs. I also own many more Rugers and S&Ws. bfrshooter and many others on this board have long had disagreements over the performance of FAs in certain applications. His experiences have seemingly held to be exactly opposite of most every other individual in the shooting world.

bfrshooter began this thread with an inflammatory heading and misleading information. Even after he was corrected by several members on the forum, he continued to stir the pot until it seemed to not be any more fun for him. He renewed his participation in this discussion with an implication that FA was selling a product they knew to be unsafe and they were just too cheap to make it "correct". This is going all the while he claims to wish he owned several.

Rabbit Creek interjected himself into the discussion with personal attacks and requests to be sued. He continued his participation with further personal attacks and the "threat" of calling out journalists on a bunch of muslim fans. This is not what a reasonable person would consider a meaningful addition to this discussion.

I believe practical to be in the eye of the beholder and a personal matter.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
Mark Twain spoke rather eloquently on the subject of remaining silent; absolutely wonderful advice for walking around.


________________________________________________

Not quite sure if you are suggesting that I shouldn't offer an opinion in this discussion and I need to remind you that this is a forum and by the very definition, a place for people to offer their opinions. I said nothing offensive to anyone, just offered my view on the behavior of folks on these FA threads. Nothing more, nothing less.
________________________________________________



I believe practical to be in the eye of the beholder and a personal matter.

Absolutely. Couldn't agree with you more. Again, I am exercising my right to offer my opinion. But in doing so, I strive not to offend, just hoping for healthy and intelligent discourse.

Well, I have never heard of Hannity and Savage, but I do wonder what "muslim fans" have to do with Freedom Arms revolvers. I assume this is a slam at our host? If so, what a doofus! If anything, Saeed is a credit to his faith. Perhaps that is what Rabbit Creek doesn't like.
Peter.

Whitworth,

You are correct, this an open forum. Speak your peace and offer any opinion you want. Just, what do you plan to do with your dog once you do get into the hunt?

Why hunt with it! That's what I plan to do!

Nothing seems to get the blood pressure up on the handgun hunting forum like these FA arguments -- just like .45/70 as a DG caliber in the big-bore and African Hunting forums.

I'm just not clear on why folks get so defensive. You can certainly deride my penchant for purchasing and hunting with Rugers and that is fine by me. No one has to like them. As long as we don't resort to insults and name calling. Polite discourse.

No harm, no foul.

I am going to admit up front I have never handled a FA Revolver ,but have only read about how high quality they are.That being said,I do not understand why a Revolver that you would carry as self protection from dangerous game can not be made,to make full use of its cartridge capacity.I have several Colts and know enough to only carry with the Hammer on an emply chamber,but do not understand the thinking behind the manufacture of a modern revolver that can not carry full capacity.I am not trying to Flame FA,I just dont get it??????

OH MY, Olbiker, you just flamed them!
Just the mention of the name has put you in the pot.
I understand Baker is in dire financial straights going from 70 workers to 5. Gee, I wonder why?

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
I am going to admit up front I have never handled a FA Revolver ,but have only read about how high quality they are.That being said,I do not understand why a Revolver that you would carry as self protection from dangerous game can not be made,to make full use of its cartridge capacity.I have several Colts and know enough to only carry with the Hammer on an emply chamber,but do not understand the thinking behind the manufacture of a modern revolver that can not carry full capacity.I am not trying to Flame FA,I just dont get it??????

Hey look! A decent question. Not being a FA engineer, I can only attempt a reasoned guess, but here goes.....

FA designed a pistol that would be used as a primary hunting arm, and as such, the design criterion favors certain trade offs. First, the trigger should be light, crisp, and consistent. Unfortunately, Rugers transfer bar design hasn't lent itself to decent trigger pulls without substantial work (and even so, far behind the FA). As much respect as I have for the mod 83, I would consider a SA revolver a good defensive arm, a DA may be a better choice. And when the chances of being gored increase, I look to a rifle capable slinging a good sized ball of lead at a good speed. But I digress.

The number of holes seemed to be secondary, I guess they figured if four rounds of 454 couldn't do it, a fifth wouldn't matter, and after all, most rifles had 3 or 4 rounds in the box.

John

I remember reading a post a while back by a bfr shooter or .44 man that he was NEVER again going to post on the subject of Freedom Arms. Since then every chance you got you've taken a swipe at them. While you claim to have no personal grudge or vendetta against the company or owner it would appear there are some unresolved issues at work here........Have you considered a session with Dr. Phil???

Just my thoughts:
As a tool maker I seek perfection in not only my job and the products I make, but also in the toys of my hobbies. Freedom Arms guns are among the tightest I have ever seen and deserve to be defended vigorously! Try taking a dial bore gauge and checking the cylinder ID on 1000 FA guns. Then do the same with Ruger, S&W, Taurus and the various "generic" brands on the market. Measure the cylinder gap! Get a Cadillac height gauge and measure the length of the cylinders. You will find the FA guns closer to perfection then other "off the shelf" revolvers on the market(these are not pistols-they are single action revolvers)! It was stated earlier that the SA (single action for those not familiar) that started all this scuttlebutt was in fact a Premier Grade. WHY WAS THIS GUN NOT SENT BACK TO FREEDOM ARMS FOR CORRECT REPAIR!!????????????!!!!
As far as making the new component from tool steel-What kind of toolsteel was used? Did you heat treat it? Did you temper it? Did you grind the part to dimensions the way it would have been done in Wyoming, or just use a Bridgeport and a file? These guns are made from 17-4 stainless thruout. 17-4 is an excellent toolsteel. I can't think of a better material to make replacement parts from, I am sure RJC did his research when creating this gun. Originally from 4140. For even more safety 17-4 was selected for the pressure capablities. If the customer sends his SA to Freedom for future repair, will your modification void the warranty? If it were my gun I'd be pissed-off that the smith/dealer I trusted my monstermasher to had the audacity to perform a repair that may infact void my warranty and cost me more money in future repairs by the manufacturer. Not saying that you are incompetent, you may be a fantastic smith. I ask again WHY NOT SENT TO FA FOR REPAIR????????
I am almost done. My factory trigger/action job is smooth as wet ice. Three lbs is as light as I want to go with this beast. My only complaint is I think I would have wanted a faster twist. I can hit the headlight of a pickup offhand with ironsights from 100 yds. I want to try with 400 grain cast and see if they stabilize.
Andy

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
I want to try with 400 grain cast and see if they stabilize.
Andy

Andy, what bullet weights are you currently using?

Big bore, the gun WAS sent back two times and it cost the owner BIG bucks for next day air. Baker even charged for return postage once. I guess he thinks everyone can spend over $100 on shipping.
I did state I was not going to post about them anymore but you guys opened it again. You never know when to quit.
I don't care how perfect you think the gun is, I can't defend a poor design. Why did they put all of those parts in the gun and then tell you they don't work, don't trust them and don't load a round under the hammer? Why didn't they use the Colt setup and knock $500 off the price of the gun?
I also want to know if they are so good, why were the first two barrels not only way oversize but also way out of round? Baker blamed my customer for it. He told him he must have shot lead boolits and then jacketed which ran over leading and bent the barrel out of round.
I have copies of all of the correspondence between them and am appalled at the stupid accusations against the owner. He is so disgusted that the gun has been here in the shop for 1-1/2 years, he doesn't even want to pick it up.
It is perfect now with a new cylinder and the third barrel. Does it shoot? Hell no! Five separate individual chamber tests have shown each chamber shooting to a different side of the target. Some marked chambers are scattering shots, some shoot tighter. The best chamber will shoot into 1-3/8" at 50 yd's to the right of the bull. The worst shoots 4" groups and 2" left of the good chamber.
I will not defend a pig in the poke wall hanger.

quote:

I did state I was not going to post about them anymore but you guys opened it again. You never know when to quit.

So, bfrshooter, it is all our fault?
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. Now, please stop posting on FA revolvers.
"I can't defend a poor design."
No one is asking you to. Rest assured that if you are an advocate for BFR firearms, I will NEVER buy one! I would buy an FA if I could afford one.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Rest assured that if you are an advocate for BFR firearms, I will NEVER buy one! I would buy an FA if I could afford one.
Peter.

Dang, Peter, is that a reason not to buy one? Does the expression "bang for the buck" mean anything to you? If you are on the market for a single action, then the BFR is worth looking at (and, you can load really long bullets as there are no cylinder limitations -- which is something I can't do with my Ruger .475).

Whitworth, you are correct of course! Just cutting off my nose to spite my face. My BIG concern, and the main reason why I would never own a BFR, is not bfrshooter, but the gun itself. They just LOOK ugly. I think firearms should be things of beauty, and the BFRs just look butt ugly! Now, the FAs on the other hand, are beautiful, and, despite what bfrshooter says, shoot very well. I just can't bring myself to spend nearly 2 grand for one when my Rugers (and S&W 629) look pretty good and shoot prety well for less than half the price!
Peter

I have several Rugers that have Crisp clean triggers of 2 1/2 Lbs.Are they as good as a Freedom Arms?Probably not.Is the Cylinder Gap anywheres near as tight as a Freedom Arms???Probably not,But do you really want a Revolver that has no slop in tolerences.Again probably not.I do not want to take some thing in the field where my life might depend on it ,that could be seized up by some refuse.Yes I would love to have one for target or long distance shooting.I think one of the newer ones in 44 Special would be fun to own.Again,just my thoughts!!!OB

For me form follows function. The fact that you can load that BFR with long bullets, that they are strongly constructed and damn accurate, trumps the bling in my opinion. Plus, with the savings you can dump a grand into customizing it and in the end you will have one really slick shooter....... But, to each his own. Yes, the FAs are beautiful guns, no doubt. I love my Rugers (and Smiths for that matter), but had to build a custom as I wanted a .475 Linebaugh. If someone wants a factory Linebaugh, I personally would look no further than the BFR.......JMHO!

I looked at everything before I purchased a FApremier454, nothing was as fine or as tight,it printed the 300xtp-31gnW296 in the same tight cloveleaf clusters as the factory test target...looking at wall full of FA units at a show some 10yrs later showed nothing had changed in build quality or feel...some feel they are as bit pricey, but its all soon forgotten when you have one...i would buy another in a heart beat.

quote:

Andy, what bullet weights are you currently using?

I have used many. Hornady 240s at 2180fps-factory-very accurate(1"@100yds). I have also used Corbon-penetrators 320, and 360(5/8-3/4@50yds). Their jhps don't group well(12 ga buckshot does better @50yds).Corbon JSPs work ok(1-2 inches@25yds). I really like cast. I used to live in the DFW, Texas area and had visited a friend in Tioga who makes excellent hard cast bullets-used to be 4W ammunition(some of you might know J.R.). He made a 45colt load that shot remarkably well-325gr @1325fps 7.5"bbl. I have also used many from Buffalo Bore. I like theirs too, esp 360gr. I was just curious about heavier cast. From what I have read maybe it would be a waste of time with a 1:24 twist. I also have a Browning 1885 in .454 it has a 1:23 twist with a 28 in bbl. Maybe 400s will stabilize in it. Whatever the case may be I want to use the same ammo in my FA as I use in my Browning.
Andy

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
I also want to know if they are so good, why were the first two barrels not only way oversize but also way out of round? Baker blamed my customer for it. He told him he must have shot lead boolits and then jacketed which ran over leading and bent the barrel out of round.

People consistently argue against you because your experiences are not typical.

The 454 is not a 45 colt, lead bullets are rarely up to those kind of pressures. If I were to shoot any lead bullets through the 454, I would be using a hard cast bullet with a gas check. The tolerances on the bore are such that there is little room for leading.

As for customer service, my wife was thinking about a mod 97 in 41 mag. She called the customer service line and inquired about the trigger reach versus the model 83, they spent 30 minutes on the phone with her to make sure all of her questions were answered. She commented on how well they talked to her as a person and not just another "girl" calling in with a dumb question.

As for design, it is poor legal practice to advocate of the mod 83s manual safety, there is no external indicator showing its engagement. I am sure, for that reason, they recommend using it over an empty chamber. The original colt design is not $500 less because of the lack of three parts, rather, it has much more to do with not being able to handle the additional 40kPSI of pressure generated by the 454 rounds.

Nothing against Rugers or BFRs, both are excellent pistols, but every design has its limitations. But the one thing FA isn't known for is poor quality control or crappy customer service, your experience is truly unique, and may have a lot to do with yours or your customers attitude.

John

quote:

and may have a lot to do with yours or your customers attitude

How true! I have found this to be true in just about ALL my dealings with CSRs. I have very rarely come across a CSR who I dealt with politely and courteously, and who responded with rudeness and surliness.
Peter.