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OK If you want one hole per bullet take a look at Hawk bullets. They have a 200gr 41 bullet with the .025jkt. I have not shot anything with their pistol bullets, but I have taken a fair amount of game with them in 286gr .035jkt., 9,3x74R, and with the 300gr .025jkt., and 400gr .035jkt., in my 450/400. They have performed excellent. All the deer, pigs, baboons and impala I hit with them have been DRT. www.hawkbullets.com DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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That line made me smile. Surly you've never missed?  | |||
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youp50, Don't get too worked up over fpe. It is a calculated value used to sell different cartridges and firearms. It does not transfer except into thermal energy. You need to be considering transfer of momentum. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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I can't say I never miss, but I don't miss much.  Several AR members have seen me shoot. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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LBT BULLETS BearTooth Bullets IMHO these two little books should be required reading for anyone contimplating using cast bullets to hunt. Handgun hunters should read them twice. These two bullet and mold men have been doing this since gunpowder. These books will tell you in detail how FN low speed bullets kill and why plus a bunch of NTK handgun tuning stuff. Love Those .41s' | |||
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Those Barnes bullets are not marketed for bear so why use them? If i was hunting for bear I would choose a 250-280 cast with a nice big metplate. If your shooting and concerned about hitting a dog or someone else in the hunting party why are you pulling the trigger? Penetration and shot placement kills quickly not bigger numbers on paper i.e. velocity and expansion. | |||
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that is the same Elk. The Elk lifted his head as I approach and I shot him in the rib with the handgun Another analogy of the inaccuracy of FPE is the 22-250 shooting a 55 grain bullet at 3600 FPS equtes to 1583 FPE. A 454 shooting a 360 grain bullet at 1400 FPS equates to 1567 FPE Shooting a Mature bison the 55 grain 22-250 would not make it through the heavy muscled shoulder yet the 360 grain 454 hard cast will exit a high percentage of the time Despite having close to the same amount of energy the two are not equal by any stratch of the imagination _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I've often wondered how I can hit a 30 pound steel gong with a bullet generating 3,000 ft lbs. of energy at impact and only move the gong 18 inches. Something for sure doesn't add up when trying to use foot pounds of energy to judge cartridge killing power. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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So it's momentum as a function of velocity and weight that's important, rather than energy? Anyway, what was the range on the rifle shot with the elk? The exit hole looks about like what I see on deer with an '06 at 100 yds. They drop instantly to that same rib shot. Of course, the elk is thicker. I see he was already down when hit with the .500. Did he drop instantly to the shot with the rifle? Analogies on this are possible but you have to pick and choose which ones. I like mine better on the .348 vs. '06. The problem with the 22-250 is those aren't used for bison. Momentum or energy, whichever or whatever, are not going to be exerted where need be and would be quickly dissipated producing a surface wound. You could get into DG hunting with this I guess. Some of those fellows might like taking part. If you're doing charging bull ele at close range, which gives a greater margin for error, a .450/400 with 4K lbs muzzle or a .416 with 5K both with same weight and shape projo.. | |||
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Our math system works all of the time in any direction, not sometime. If our present math system did not work in all directions and all of the time then it would be invalid My 338 Lapua shooting a 300 grain SMK at 2800 FPS and that calculates to 5222 FPE. A 458 win shooting a 500 garin bullet at 2050 FPS has 4665 FPS. No way no how is the 338 Lapua the equal, muh less better than the 458 Win for Shooting Elephants The fact that when shooting a ballistics pendelum and measuring the distance of the swing give the amount of MOMENTUM transfered should be proof enough of what is transfered. Momentum is transfered, not energy The Elk was shot originaly with the 300 Win at I 286 yards if memory serves me correctly. No he did not go right down _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Is there a math formula for figuring the momentum? I assume it has to be different from the energy formula. | |||
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Mass times velocity ='s momentun _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I see. Anyway, there's only one "formula" I've ever been really interested in on this. It's real simple. Does the deer drop instantly when I pull the trigger. I'm not sure the math matters if that part works. If everyone says energy is meaningless, fine. But, just to be on the safe side, I think I'll keep on using a minimum of near or above 1K foot lbs in rifle and handgun. I understand it may be or probably is just coincidence it gets that result, but what I like about it is I know exactly what will happen when I do my part right. 286 is a nice shot. | |||
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I took the Antelope on the right woth 1 shot and it drop straight down at the shot and that was that The distance was 777 yards, the velocity was about 2000 FPS at impact for about 710 FPE. The Antelope didn't seem to mind that the FPE was below 1000 FPE.  The 1 on the left also dropped at the shot and the distance was 280 yards. Bother were shot with a 180 grain bullet from my 300 win mag There are many factors as to whether or not an animal drops at the shot. 1- shot placement, 2- bullet performance, 3-the difference in biological make up of individual animals, etc _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I took a hog once at 218 yards with ny 45 Colt and the Buffalo Bore 325 grain LFN hard cast bullet. When the bullet hit the hog was knocke dover like a gallery target. Not a lot of FPE, but plenty of momentum and direct applied force. O'yea the bullet exited _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Well, like I was saying what counts is what works. If you want venison for supper you first have to get the deer stopped. And everyone here knows what all will do that in handgun and other loads and what won't. So I guess it's kinda pointless really splitting hairs over momentum, energy and hydrostatic shock. Anyway, I'm looking forward to hearing how the .41 does on the bear hunt. | |||
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No, it is not splitting hairs. Educating those who do not know better is always a good thing. Problem is, this nonsense is so deeply ingrained at this time. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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Just a thought, but since this ENERGY issue keeps popping up, maybe a dedicated sticky is in order. | |||
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I would not call the truth "splitting hairs". Go to the University and ask a Physics proffesor. Energy transforms into other forms of energy in an inelastic collision is a fact. Hydro static shock is a slag term, for hydraulic pressure. The faster the bullet the higher the hydraulic pressure that is created. This is what allows your 243 to blow much larger holes in Deer than it other wise would by simple crushing the tissue with the frontal area of the bullet FPE is like horse power in an engine it is calculated, not measured _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I am staying out of this one...lol  If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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Why do folks keep deleting their posts?? "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Because they can...  If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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Oh.......  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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