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I drew a Wisconsin Bear tag this year. I plan on carrying my Redhawk. The bears are hunted with hounds. Some years they are heavy in the corn fields. They do not like to leave the corn and you have to go in and get them. Over penetration may get a dog on the other side of the bear killed. It is a corn field and shots will be up close and very personal. Bears may be 200 to over 500 pounds dressed. 3 to 4 hundred being more realistic. I think I am leaning towards the Barnes 180 gr. I have no experience with this particular Barnes. It is light do you think it has momentum enough to shoot through? I have the 210 XTPs on hand. Not sure if it is up to breaking the shoulder of a good black bear. I have no problem with shooting until I am empty and he ain't moving. The dogs tend to pile on after the shootin starts. | ||
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Cottonstalk, hopefully will respond to this thread. He has taken or been in on over 200 kills on Black Bear mostly if not all useing dogs. Some up to 500 or more pounds and he prefers the 45 Colt with 300+ grain wide flat point hard cast bullets. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| one of us |
I know of several people who have shot bears in the corn one was monster 536lbs he shot with factory 240gr soft points. Others use there rifles. I use a 215gr hard cast out of a Lee mold in my 41. Only saw two bears finshed off with it. One a head shot on a 220lb bear in one side out the other. The other a 250 lb bear shot down through the top of the shoulders didn't want a hole in shull. bear stopped moving. I guess I would go with a good hard cast over 200 grs loaded with a max load of h110 that combo seems to work well with just about any cal 41 44 45. What area in wis do you plan to hunt it. | |||
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How much did that Bear wiegh? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Here is 2002 bear. 380 dressed on a scale    | |||
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youp50, did you use a handgun and if so what caliber and bullet did youuse? Thanks _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Would you use the 240 XTP on a 400ish pounder? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| one of us |
Makes my mouth water. I have eaten bear meat many times---oh boy is it good. | |||
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Given the fact that the 240 XTP did not exit on a 150 pound Bear, you'd feel comfortable that it would give adequate penetration on a 400ish pounder from any angle? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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youp50 -- very nice bear!!  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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In 2002 I did not own but a 22 revolver. A number of years ago in Michigan there was no legal way to carry a revolver on a 4 wheeler. I peddled my revolver. This bear was killed with a Savage Model 99 308 caliber. He treed and it was my last day to hunt. On the subject of bear meat. Prior to butchering a boar bear, take a piece of meat and cook it. Some boar bears are not fit to eat and cannot made to be edible. It is much better to find this out before you have invested time or money into the processing. I am under the impression boar hogs have the same meat quality issues. Is it safe to assume I will be satisfied with the 210 XTP? | |||
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| one of us |
youp50 One thing you could do is to follow the "plan" of a lot of cape buffalo hunters. Carry your chosen jacketed expanded bullet, or two, with the other rounds in the cylinder hard cast bullets. If loaded to similar velocities they should hit close together. Then, as in hunting cape buff your first shot or two is an expanding bullet, for max damage... Then if the bear is still up, and runs away, or TOWARD you, you have some "Solids" for deep penetration/skull busting. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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While I haven't shot anything 500 lbs with the 210 XTP, I think it would do just fine. That being said, I've recently been working up some loads with hardcast stuff just to see what the fuss is all about. Assuming POI is pretty similar, I think the 2 soft noses and then going to hardcast would be a great set up, assuming you're using a revolver of course. .41 mag rocks. | |||
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The Barnes 180g will more than likely pass through at dog bayed range. The Sierra 170 Sports Master would be a better choice if you want the bullet to stay on the inside. I know a pistolsmith who uses that bullet to hunt elk from a .41 wildcat at around 2000fps and it does the job. Love Those .41s' | |||
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Using a proper meplat hard cast the answer is ,yes IMHO _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I am thinking the 41 gives up little to a 44 here. Multiple shot kills are probably closer to the norm. Take your best shot and run to the bear shooting as you go, just don't get a dog. I used a borrowed 357 for the first bear I ever killed with a pistol. I used all 5 shots available to me to get it done. Bear bailed out of a tree, one in the ribs on the way down. Second missed the spine, but got into the chest cavity from less than 5 feet. Two in the guts as the bear laid on its back and was drawing dogs in to the jaws. A bullet in the belly makes them let go and the dog is shielding the chest, neck and head. The final shot was a head shot. Except for the first shot all under 5 feet. Elapsed time less than 1 minute. A deceased buddy brought some junk bullets he loaded in a 44 mng. Penetration was measured in inches. Two shots to the back of the head knocked the bear silly, not dead. I am quite certain the bullet will be the answer. The nice thing about the Redhawk is the sixth shot. Just in case the bear is winning I can give him a corpse to chew on not a live body  | |||
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Not trying to pick a fight, and I certainly bow to your much greater experience, but as someone who has read a bunch of these hunt reports on the .41 and the XTP, it seems that the vast majority of them aren't recovered because they exit. I've also noticed that a whole bunch of the hardcast kills aren't immediate one shot kills, even from you guys who are very experienced. I can say that I decided to do a penetration test in the dirt of the burm at the range (admittedly not the best media), and got sick of digging. I didn't recover any bullets, but all, including a JSP went at least 14-16 inches into solid dirt from a few feet away. Not saying that the "any angle" thing always applies, but I think on any shot that should be taken it will work. | |||
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The desired endpoint as I see it is systemic hydrostatic shock. The only way that happens is for a bullet to dump every foot-pound of energy it is carrying into the body. I know bears are strong, so the idea of using a hard cast bullet in what may be a very quickly-played scenario is somewhat questionable to me. If that bullet exits, energy that could have been used for incapacitation is wasted on whatever the bullet hits next. It would be quite hard for me to make an incapacitating shot at a moving target: brain or spine. It is a proven fact that lungs don't get it done if the animal has air in the bloodstream: the muscles will work until the oxygen is gone. For that proof, witness a lung shot animal. MOST (not all) will run about 60 yards or so and then go down. Same thing with an arrow. When the fuel for the muscles is gone the body dies. Having said all that, I would elect for a quick-opening jacketed bullet and try to get heart and/or lungs if I knew I couldn't break the animal down, and just hope the hydrostatic shock did the rest. Especially since shooting the brain destroys any chance at a trophy since the skull cannot be scored (if I understand the rules correctly). But I will quickly admit that most of the time my opinion is diametrically opposed to the popular one... | |||
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I agree. The 41 performs bigger than it is IMHO and experience _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I can remember seeing a report here once of a grizz being taken in a self defense situation with a .41. I think it was one shot. I have no doubts there are other such cases too. Nothing was said about the bullet or load, but it still speaks quite well of the .41. At any rate, I've used C-B's .41 mag 210 gr jhp (1350 fps) on deer and they can blow right on thru. It's a different bullet design than the xtp, less open at the nose. While I've never shot a black bear, I would venture a guess with either bullet style in 210 at 1350 there'd be an excellent chance of complete penetration so you'd have no choice on waiting til the dogs are out of the way. I'd do that no matter what I was using. | |||
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My "Big Load" in my Smith 357PD (.41 mag Ti-Scan) is 15.5 gr. of 2400 under a 265 gr. Beartooth WNFPGC bullet. It's my "outdoor defense load" and I think it's around 1,100 fps from my 4" bbl. Anyway, that would be my choice in bear country. Regards, Robert ****************************** H4350! It stays crunchy in milk longer! | |||
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youp50 asked because he is concerned about OVER PENETRATION. Shoot through the bear, kill the dog on the off side, bad ju ju. The Barnes 180g isn't a good choice because they don't blow up and at spittin' distance there is a very good chance it will get through. It will untimely come down to a carefully picked and placed shot being mindful of where the dogs are. Love Those .41s' | |||
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The FPE BS has reared its ugly head again. There are 2 types elastic and inelastic. A bullet strike is an inelastic collision. FPE is transformed into other forms of energy mostly thermal also sound, etc. There is a small amount of energy transfer but this is untracable and unimportant. The wound channel is causedby the amount of direct aplllied pressure (meplat size) the amount of hydraulic pressure created (directly related to the velocity) and the amount of penetration Here is a picture of an exit in the rib cage of a 6X7 bull Elk from a 180 grain from a 300 winn mag impact velocity of about 2600FPE which is 2700 FPS  Here is a picture of the exit of a 440 grain wide meplat flat point from a 500JRH with a muzzle velocity of 950 FPS for 888 FPE  The damage was larger from start to finish with the 888 FPE bullet FPE is a very poor indicator of terminal performance _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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+ 1 jwp! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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You miss the point, guys... Tell me why LEOs have gone from the 9s to the 40s, then back in a whole lot of cases to the 45? It is because that big slow bullet knocks perps on their butt because it's travel time through the body is slower, resulting in more energy transfer. If you remember, when the 10 MM came out, it was quickly determined it had too much energy: it was too hot: it shot through people and they kept coming. The whole idea of my post was to get the bear on the ground so he didn't eat up the hunter. Surely you can see that... There is a world of difference between hunting something where you don't care how far it goes after being shot, and having to knock something down within just a few yards to keep from being eaten. It goes back to one of the laws of physics: double the mass, retain the velocity and energy doubles. Retain the mass and double the velocity, and the energy is squared. Now, argue with physics. | |||
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I am not argueing with physics, you are. Momentum is transfered in all collisions, NOT ENERGY as explained above. Check the facts the FBI rejected the Full Powered 10mm load beacause of RECOIL and had Federal to load the 180 grainer down to 950 FPS, the same as the 40 S&W is loaded today Increases the speed and increase the momentum that should be easy to comprehend Before eletronic chrono's a Ballistics Pendelum was used to figure velocity. The pendelum was shot and the distance the pendelum swung was measured and this gave the AMOUNT OF MOMENTUM that was transfered, NOT ENERGY. Once the amount of momentum transfer was known then the velocity could be calculated. Note that ENERGY is not measure, but is calculated Now ague with Physics if you must, and if you prove them wrong then I m sure that a Pultzer prize awaits _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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So there is no energy transferred in a collision? Okay; I quit. But you might want to check out an inelastic collision, since you are obviously talking about physics on a molecular level (which I have no idea how it applies to the current discussion). And you will find that the pendelum testing was subsequently determined to be flawed (but you don't mention that either). | |||
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 Perhaps you need to do some research and studying up on the dynamics of wound trauma incapacitation and learn what is actually transfered. I would suggest this book as a starter. Here's an analogy you may understand. A 200-lb man running a 10-flat 100 (that is 30 fps) -- generates 2,797 ft-lbs of energy. There are NFL football players heavier than this who also run faster, yet they get up, dust themselves off and go back to the huddle after most collisions. If foot-pounds of energy were the key to terminal performance, each NFL game would fill a morgue. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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jwp, I'm afraid I'm not getting a lot out of that elk pic. Is that two holes or are there supposed to be two pics? I'm only seeing one. And, do I understand correctly that energy has nothing to do in hunting with terminal results? And that what does is momentum as a function of velocity and mass? Just trying to be sure I understand. I also think what's many times overlooked about the energy figures is its role as a reference ON PAPER for comparing two cartridges. Let's say you're trying to decide whether to buy a gun with an unusual cartridge. For instance, I've always wanted a Model 71 lever gun in the delux grade. It's chambered for the .348 Win. Now, if I've never shot a .348 and want to study it first, I'll just compare it to a cartridge I do know, the .30-06. A quick reference check will show its energy level and what I find when I look that up is, it's almost the same as the '06. In other words, I now know the two are "in the same ball park" and I have a useful comparison to work from. I trust no one will take serious issue with that. There's another way of doing it. You could look up the exact bullet weight and then the velocity of one cartridge, then the exact same figures for another and compare them. But, isn't it easier and a lot faster to compare two energy figures than four of the others? Btw, if you turned that football player end on so the point of his helmet transmitted a concentrated 2797 foot pounds, and then ran him into an elk, well, who knows...for that matter if you could throw folding chairs with enough force to hit a deer with 1000 pounds of energy at 100 yds... | |||
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So now I am an idiot, and I don't understand... Okay; welcome to my ignore list. You just took it to a personal level. | |||
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No where did I remotely infer that you were am idiot, that is an icrediable jump to say the least _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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In the above pictures show the exits in the rib cage of the ELK. The picture of the smaller exit is from the 300 win with 2700 FPE, the larger exit is from the 500 JRH with 888 PE Even with the great advantage of FPE the exits as well as the entire lenght of the wound channel from start to finnish was bigger with the larger calliber projectile even with 1/3 the amount of energy. Compairing 2 cartridges of different calibers on the basis of FPE will not give an accurate comparison and does not take into account the larger frontal area of the larger diameter bullets nor does it take into account the adde momentum of the heavier projectile and is an apple to oranges comparison at best. Most of us growing up reading the gun rags bought into the FPE BS. After years of experience and farther study we learned the fallicy of the FPE transfer theory _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Well let me say this with dogs,imo only calm,good clean shots need to be taken.I have seen great pistol shooters go to pieces around bears with hounds around.Over penetration is a concern but under penetration is more of a concern.If you keep your head and pay attention you can cleanly take a bear with a bullet that completely penetrates,on the other side a bullet that doesn't do the job will cause dogs to be hurt and even at times people.I have 2 suggestions for you,go hunting before the season with the hounds as much as you can before firearms are brought out.Don't road hunt as soon as the dogs bay up be there,watch the dogs work,how the bear acts and responds to pressure from the hounds,if they happen to be the hounds you will use for kill season,which was is the aggressor(usually every pack has a stand out)if you had to shoot what angles will work,what won't,how far are available opportunities,if it goes bad what will my options be,does the hound owner have any preferences(head shot,body,shoulders).The more you learn and experience before hand and the more you practice the better your odds will be that you will harvest your bear and no one including the hounds,as well as yourself,will be no worse for wear.I do not have alot of experience with the 41 caliber but heavy for caliber loads are best in the 44 and 45.I prefer hard cast wfns in handguns with straight wall cartridges @ normal pistol velocities.I have seen tried everything from 38 - 454 and some are appropriate and others are not,but like I said earlier,keeping your head and staying calm goes a long way.Just my 2 cents worth.Good luck. "If you get to thinkin' you're a person of some influence,try orderin' someone else's dog around" unknown cowboy | |||
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In my opinion if you have to run and shoot you are shooting from to far away,step and shoot would be more like it.You better be sure what is expected from the houndsman,because that would never fly here,and dogs hurt not by the bear get to be expensive.Hard to consider it a fun hunt when you have to fork over $1000 or more for a dog you shot. "If you get to thinkin' you're a person of some influence,try orderin' someone else's dog around" unknown cowboy | |||
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Several valid points and several more questions. First is a 41 mag 'enough gun'? I hope to let you know come Sep/Oct. Help me to understand this comparison. 44 Rem Mag 240 gr bullet at 1300 fps (reasonable?) offers 900 fpe at 10% greater diameter or more importantly .145 sq in area. 41 Rem 210 gr bullet at 1600 fps (reasonable?) offers 1200 fpe at .132 sq in. The 44 offers almost 10% greater surface area. The 44 offers 14% greater mass. The 41 offers almost 23% more velocity. According to an energy calculator the 41 offers 33% more fpe. 900 for the 44 vs 1200 for the 41. DO these numbers make sense? It has been my observations that animals hit in the vitals with a harder slap from higher velocity bullet usually react accordingly. To be certain dead is dead, but dead right there trumps dead on its feet when bears and dogs get together. | |||
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If you choose a wide meplat bullet the 41 will do the job. If you want to step up the food chain then the 45 Colt with 300 to 325 grain wide meplat hard casts are a significant improvement over the 41 and/or 44. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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The other picture is up now _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| one of us |
Personally on a bear or a pig [I have shot several bears, and a bunch of pigs], I would be leary of the Barnes Expander. It is marketed as a deer bullet. As it is designed to expand a lot I would be concerned about its penetration on an animal bigger than a deer. I think with a 41 Mag, on a bear or a pig I would take a look at the Federal 210 Swift A Frame, if I wanted some expansion or the Federal 250 Cast Core, or equivilent handloads. I agree with the other posters in that you need to be very careful when you shoot around dogs. But not enough penetration always is a bigger concern than overpenetration. Also it is better to only have to shoot once, or maybe twice then the have to shoot a bunch. Think about this, a hard cast into the spine might break bone, penetrate and be an instant killer, where a Soft exanding bullet might not. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Cotton, I have been to the Great Dismal and the Okefenoke, you have some men swamps there. I guess the coast is similar. I think you may be misunderstanding me. I slip in ad take my best shot. I like the high shoulder. Breaks him down, but leaves the jaws functioning. Better run IN and finish it. IME at the shot the dogs get much bolder and I need to get much closer. I did get too close once and the bear balled up on me. If this takes place in a cornfield, I am sure the first shot will be less that 10 feet. For this application I want one hole per bullet. | |||
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jwp, did both elk drop instantly to the shot? On the .41, I cannot imagine it not being enough gun. Like I said, we know it's taken grizz in self defense. As for velocity in the 210, on deer I know 1350 works and I'd be real comfortable with 1450. But not so sure how good an idea 1600 is. Too much expansion for a jhp and maybe more than needed for a h/c? Sounds high to me. Anyway, a question for the bear hunters here. Is it physically possible to get close enough to kneel down and take an upwards shot that would miss the dogs? Since I've not done this, just curious (I've only been invited on one bear hunt and it wound up getting cancelled). Btw, I used to know this girl who lived in the Pacific Northwest. Her ex was a bear guide and in the divorce she somehow got the dogs. Needing a job, she took up bear guiding. The thing was, she hunted only with archery. No firearms. When not working, her idea of entertainment was to take off into the mountains with her dogs, camp out by herself and archery hunt black bear. I asked what happens if a bear took exception to all this and she said "sometimes they get a little ornery". I asked what then, and she says "I stick them again". If you met her and knew her folks you too would have no doubts this was true. So I'd have no qualms about getting the job done with a .41. | |||
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