If the Raging Bull can handle the 454 Cassull at ~1.77" COL, OR the 480 Ruger, case dimensions nominally a shortened 475 L, then why not ream out the chambers of a 480 to 475 L?
Wouldn't this be a super-simple conversion?
A double-action, 5-shot 475 that dodn't instantly induce CTS!
Surely someone's already doing this, right?

the .475 works at greater pressures then the .480 and with less meat in the cyl walls then you would have with the .454 i wouldnt try it. Id bet if it would work Tarus would allready be doing it.

My brother did it to his Ruger, but I wouldn't to my Taurus 454. It is simple, but there's not as much metal on the Taurus cylinder as there is on the Ruger. I think his Ruger was built a tad tougher too...

Anyone heard of the double firing 500 Smith and Wesson problem? Two rounds firing consecutively. My smith just told me tonight that S&W caught it on high speed film.

As I understood it the double firing phenomenon encountered with the 500 Smith was due to the use of pistol primers. Smith now advises the use of rifle primers in this round.

That was the rumor floating around if I remember correctly.

hangunnr

The gun is not likely to fail catastrophically, but you'll have sticky extraction long before you reach anything like Linebaugh performance. In fact, I've seen FACTORY cases stick in Ruger .480s. With such thin cylinders, they lack the rigidity (not the strength) to prevent the brass from expanding excessively, resulting in sticky extraction.

If the problem of cylinder rigidity did not exist, then the slightly smaller case capacity of the .480 could be almost completely overcome with proper powder choice (much like the .44 Special and .44 Mag--in a .44 Mag revolver you can get damn near the same performance level out of both cartridges). It would fall a little short at the max end of the spectrum, but you could get pretty close. But rechambering would be unnecessary unless absolute max loads were required.

If I had to choose one to modify, a Taurus might be a better choice than a Ruger because I think the cylinder is thicker--if someone knows, please correct me on this.

475/480, that's good news to me. Thanks for sharing the info.
As for the SRH's lang chamber, the Raging Bull should be equal since the same gun is chambered in the 1.77" 454. And it IS a five shot, so you may have a bit more safety margin.
As I mentioned, once you get into bullets of .475" seating + .485" then I'm not sure how the gun would know it wasn't a 475 chamber and brass.
Speaking of who's got the tougher brass, has anyone tried trimmed Linebaugh brass?

The problem with the early S&W 500s was light bolt springs. Basically, upon firing the bolt stop could recede back into the frame allowing the cylinder to rotate (corrected by the factory in late 2003; this only happened on certain guns with heavy 440 grain loads). Smith's recommendation to use rifle primers was more the result of operating pressure, not functionality (49,000 CUP is about max for large magnum pistol; the other consideration is that a lot of folks are reloading the round to 60,000 CUP).



Lee Martin

www.singleactions.com

I think the sticky extraction on the 480 SRH is due both to (relatively) rough chamber bores, and soft Hornady brass. Personally, I don't have a problem with it, because I find it is a nice way to know where you are pressure wise. You can work up quite powerful loads that will just drop right out of the cylinder. I've also found the Hornady brass will take many, many loading before very small neck cracks begin.

If you want to try and match the 475 you don't even need to ream out the 480 chamber to 475, all you need is a bullet with a long nose, or crimp on the first lube groove. Lee's 400 gr bullet has dual crimp grooves to allow 480 shootes to load it out to 475 COL. My buddy was pushing them to 1350 fps from his 480. I also have a custom long nose 400 gr gc Mountain Mold. I have another custom mold from Balisticast that drops 460 grs and crimped to the first lube groove I've gotten to 1100 fps. The 460 is so long that it has to be crimped in the first lube groove, because seated deeper the gc will bulge the case.

If you want to know what the real limiting factor is, it's recoil management in a double action frame w/ no muzzle brake. I find a 400 gr @ 1200 fps to be quite manageable, but pushing it 100 or 200 fps faster will dramatically increase the recoil, with a limited increase in terminal performance.

The 480 w/o modifications or hot loads is enough gun to drop any game one wishes to hunt with a revolver. It matches the blackpowder 45-70 performance.

I interviewed Herb Belin at S&W on the issue of the cylinder bolt and the problem is not due to weak bolt springs or primers it's the shooter - same with the gun going off twice. And yes they have this on high speed film.

You can check out the gist of the interview here 500 4-Inch

If S&W is pinning the cylinder rotation on user error, that's unacceptable. I agree that the problem does seem to tie into how the gun is held; regardless, that's not a valid answer. Think about it.....if the cylinder is rotating under heavy recoil, that means the bolt stop isn't staying put. And what holds the bolt stop in place? You guessed it.....the bolt spring. Jeff Quinn wrote an excellent review of an early .500 on Gunblast.com. Like others, he experienced the problem with heavy 440s and fixed it with a stronger spring (I know of 6 other X-frames that have been corrected the same way).

Lee Martin
www.singleactions.com

My brother got 475 LB MV out of his Ruger, but recoils from it bites like only a SRH can! The FA is WAY better, not even close to each other!

Paul is right. Seat the bullets out and it's a 475 LB.

That was a pretty good explanation on the 500 Smith double fire. Dave, my smith, said he'd "not" of believed it hadn't he saw it with his own eyes, 3 times in a row. He said it happens SO FAST you can not even tell there was two rounds fired, but if you're shooting it, you feel a tab more!

I don't want to argue with you over the bolt sprint issue but take the revolver and pull the trigger like you would if you fired it but holding the trigger back. Now move the trigger part of the way forward to its normal position and then pull it rearward again. What happens? The bolt drops out of the way and the cylinder is free to rotate. The shooters finger is forced forward by the more heavily recoiling rounds. Do this and you'll immediately see how the shooter contributes to the problem.

Also, how would a weak bolt spring cause the firing of two rounds?

One last thing to think about. A gun is like any other mechanical device if it's not operated properly it may not work like it's supposed to. So why couldn't the shooter be responsible for the cylinder rotation?

So, the 475 will do 1400 with a 400g and *5.5" bbl*, so add another 100 fps for the 8" bbl. We're looking at 300 fps more than Ruger loads.
If you can get anywhere near that in a 480 seated out to 1.75" I am all ears.
As for recoil, the Raging Bull by most all accounts is immanently more shootable than the Rugers.
And it's ported as well. I'd give it a go.
Now, I know Linebaugh's data falls under that pre-chrono wildcat category, where pressure testing was not routine, so does anyone know what the max is for the 475? I think it is 50k. And the Ruger is 48k IIRC. The 454, though rated at 65k, is loaded from the factory at more like 55k (even Buffalo Bore).
I would think that, given the shorter barrels of most 475's, a longer barrel in front of a 475 loaded to a mere 48k would produce some impressive velocities.
If the 480 is 1.285" (?) long, then to reach 1.77" COL you'd need a bullet at least .96" long to have a caliber seated. That's prolly a 450g or so, right?
Wonder how they cut those chambers, if the max case length is really the max case length, or if you could just cut your cases longer anyway....

If the max pressure is 55K for the FA 454 then it is 55K for the 475L in the FA 83.
Concerning the 450gr bullet nowadays you can get a mould made with a .500" nose specificly for the long SRH cylinder,I had Dan at mountainmolds make me a 480gr WFNGC mould with a .500" NL that shoots 1100 fps MAX in my SRH 480 but NL is to long for my FA 83 475L,also have a 460gr LFNGC mould from ballisti-cast but with a .400" NL that will chamber in the 475 L.You really dont gain anything trying to make a 480 into a 475L except trouble if it blows .
Sean

The max OAL is 1.775".In the SRH you have more options on OAL because the SRH cylinder is so long, which gives you more powder room.I read(John Linebaugh) that as you approach MAX with X heavy bullets pressure raise very quickly ,has to do with the room the powder has to work in 480 case compared to 475 L case.
Sean

I have a srh .480 cut down to 4.5". I get 1220 fps with a 420 gr custom mold and a col of 1.76". 3 more inches of barrel gives you 100 fps more. I feel it is exactly the same as a .475 L as far as load data. My cases all but fall out of the gun at that level. I'm at the lower end of loads listed for the .475L in the Hodgdon manual and really have no desire for any more. According to Hodgdon this should be about 40,000 psi. I think case capacity is everything when it comes down to velocity produced at a given powder charge. It really doesn't matter what is stamped on the case. The saami spec for the .480 is 48000 psi. I have been told they are proofed at 90000. Anybody ever break a .480 srh by hotrodding it?

I'm not attributing the double taps soley to the bolt spring issue......only the fact that the cylinder often rotated backwards after firing. One thing to note: a lot of people sent X-frames back to the factory because the cylinder became unlocked with heavy loads. The factory shipped the guns back, claimed they fixed the problem, and now the guns work fine. That being the case, it's not totally related to user error (my friend had this done to his .500 and found that they in fact installed a stronger bolt spring).

Lee Martin
www.singleactions.com

My .480 Ruger SRH wouldn't come close to .475 Linebaugh performance without the cases sticking in the cylinder so hard I had to tap the cases out. This happened with Hornady and Starline brass, so I don't think soft brass is a significant issue. I used 390gr and 425gr cast bullets from Cast Performance crimped in the lube grooves and would begin to get case drag at around 1400ft/lbs of muzzle energy. I even had case drag with factory ammo...disappointing for .44 Mag level performance.

Liljohn is correct; the .480 Super Redhawk suffers from excessively thin cylinder walls because Ruger foolishly chose to make it a 6 shot. The cylinder deflection limits the pressure that can be handled. Combined with mediocre accuracy, limited and expensive components, and poor consistency, I was not impressed. I sold mine.

Going from a 5 1/2" barrel to a 7 1/2" barrel will only add 50-60 fps. One must be careful when looking at 475 data and sizes, because the shorter cylinder of the FA 83 reduces the OAL from the original Linebaugh desing, but by a measly .030".

Anyhow, using the SAAMI 475 spec, you have a 1.4" case, and bullets .37" from meplat to canalure for 1.77". Taking the 1.285" ruger case, and a custom .51" crimp to nose mountain mold makes for a 1.795" COL, only .005" shy of the original linebaugh.

With all that said, if you really want a 475, then by all means get one, but you aren't going to get it for the $500-600 of a Ruger or Bull, you're going to be spending $1500-2000 for an FA or custom bisley.

Ask yourself this, if you can't effectively kill an animal with a 400 gr bullet at 1200-1300 fps, or a 450-460 @ 1100 fps, is another 100 fps really going to make a difference? If you are marginal @ 480 levels, you'll still be marginal with a 475. I have a simple solution for times when the 480 isn't enough, it's called a rifle, specifically a 458 Lott.

Look at the results of the linebaugh seminar from two years back when my 460 gr WFN @ 1100 fps from a 480 penetrated 38" through wet newsprint, and another bullet did 2-3" bone and 12+" of newsprint. The 475's and 500's bettered the newsprint penetration by a few inches, say 10% more. To get that extra 10% of penetration, you're going to increase recoil by 50%.

To the accuracy comment, I find that curious, but know Rugers products can varry. My 480, as well as a budies have been amazingly accurate. When I had the scope on it, I was able to make every cast bullet I tested group 1" at 50 yds for five shots. I never cherry picked the chambers either, just dropped five in and shot. I wouldn't be suprised if the gun is capable of slightly better accuracy, I'm the limiting factor. With iron sights, I can group 2-3" @ 50 yds.

No offense, but you don't know what you are talking about. If the stupid cylinder jumps time with loads that are within spec to people that ARE EXPERIENCED BIG BORE SHOOTERS, then either the gun or a part of it is faulty. PERIOD.

If the gun was designed to work in a way that is not compatable with the techniques of experienced shooters, then the design sucks ass and should be changed. It's a F'ing revolver, for God's sake. It works the same goddamn way that they all do and should be fired using the same techniques. It actually recoils less than many others I fire on a regular basis, and these other ones don't jump time.

I've been shooting heavy recoiling handguns for over 20 years, and so have many of my shooting partners. We've all tried my 500, and we've all experienced the timing jump problem. We already shoot using techniques that prevent the trigger finger from rebounding, but the cylinder UNLOCKS ANYWAY. The problem is the goddamn gun and that's all there is to it.

Otherwise, it would not be fixed by a heavier spring, would it?