quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
How many what?

And while we're at it, what has that got to do with judging how hard they are to penetrate?

As I've already said, I am sure the .45 Colt has plenty of penetration with the right loads to penetrate either moose or grizzly.

I am not going to get into a pissing contest with any of you guys. I was simply observing that grizzlies are not as easy to stop as moose are. That was intended only as a personal observation of what I would want to use if I were doing it myself. And that would be the most potent handgun I had that I felt fully the master of.

You can use whatever you want. No argument here.

What are you getting defensive about? I asked a simple question about how many of the above mentioned kills were with a handgun. I'm not judging, comparing, measuring, pissing, or attacking here. Just trying to understand your perspective. Not being combative in the least.

jwp475

Sweet pictures there.

Tell us more about the hunt and the guns involved.

I would have to say a 45 can be enough gun on Bears. I have personally seen two 8 foot plus bears that were taken with a 45. One with a pass through and one with the bullet recovered in the hide on the off side. Both times the 45 slugs took out the front shoulders. This i have to say is paramount before even thinking about them be killed outright. You must first stop them from being able to get to you! They can some time hae alot of fight left in them after having the heart and lungs taken out. With all that I carry a hot loaded 44M alwaysas does my wife. But when the time comes any gun can have you wanti g for more. Nothing can prepare you for a pissed off bruin!
If you feel comfortable with the 45 then more power to you. They have been quickly killed with much less from time to time.
When I get to my computer I will try and post some pics of Bears taken with a 45. Out at the trapping cabin now with minimal pbone reception.
JM2CW

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
jwp475

Sweet pictures there.

Tell us more about the hunt and the guns involved.

The bear thatIam fleshing was taken with a 338 win with 250 partition. The revolver used was a 475 with an LBT 390 grain LFN hard cast at about 1350 fps the Moose andbear on the left of the picture

Moose are definately large and harder to penetrate than grizz

Back in 2008, before I went up to Alaska, I was talking to "Sitka Deer"/Art, over on 24hourcampfire.com. He's personally been in on the taking of numerous Brownies. He has personally fleshed out the scapula and other front shoulder bones of Brownies. The point he was making for me, IIRC, was that "brown" bears are lightly boned. He could easily see light through the fleshed out scapula. He even sent me pics and I have to agree, seemed very thin. My point is I believe tough muscle is the thing to worry about penetrating, not bone. I have every confidence a 280/300/335 gr 45 cal WFN will do the deed. Stating that, I also realize the bear may be dead on it's feet but the direction it heads after it's death roll will be the issue. I just hope it doesn't come up on all fours heading in my direction, whether or not it knows I'm the cause of it's pain or not. That's when the rodeo can start.

Alan

GSSP,

Soooo, whatcha gonna use for backup?
Benelli auto with slugs is what I'm thinkin'.

Sounds like it will be a great hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by john113wyo:
GSSP,

Soooo, whatcha gonna use for backup?

.500 Linebaugh is what I would suggest......

Not sure that he'll need a back up. The 45 Colt properly loaded inconjuction with a competent shooter will git-r-done

quote:

Originally posted by john113wyo:
GSSP,

Soooo, whatcha gonna use for backup?
Benelli auto with slugs is what I'm thinkin'.

Sounds like it will be a great hunt.

.500 Linebaugh is what I would suggest......

Why yes, as Whitworth so aptly mentioned, WHO you gonna use as backup. I stand corrected (and want to be available...)

For the record, I do not doubt your skill or the .45's killing power. But, stuff happens...

LOL! I volunteer!

"BTW, Ross Seyfried took a Cape buffalo with a .45 Colt and no back-up."

350 grain bullets, at 1550 fps? It may have LOOKED like a .45 Colt, but those were .454 loads.
It also took 5 shots, and the buffalo nearly got him. Died a few feet from him, trying to kill him.He never did it again.
He then got the .475 and .500 Linebaugh designed, and designed the .585 Nyati for a cheap backup gun for buffalo.

NOT the reference I'd use for an example of using enough gun.

quote:

Originally posted by 550375:
"BTW, Ross Seyfried took a Cape buffalo with a .45 Colt and no back-up."

350 grain bullets, at 1550 fps? It may have LOOKED like a .45 Colt, but those were .454 loads.
It also took 5 shots, and the buffalo nearly got him. Died a few feet from him, trying to kill him.He never did it again.
He then got the .475 and .500 Linebaugh designed, and designed the .585 Nyati for a cheap backup gun for buffalo.

NOT the reference I'd use for an example of using enough gun.

Ross made a bad shot with the first round and the rodeo begin. There was absolutely no problem with the terminal performance at all. I have talked to Ross about this and Ross also thinks that the 585 Nyati was not a good idea and that was in his "I need more power" days. I am not aware that Ross ever used the 585. I know that his last years as guode in Africa he used a 416 and loved it

quote:

Originally posted by 550375:
"BTW, Ross Seyfried took a Cape buffalo with a .45 Colt and no back-up."

350 grain bullets, at 1550 fps? It may have LOOKED like a .45 Colt, but those were .454 loads.
It also took 5 shots, and the buffalo nearly got him. Died a few feet from him, trying to kill him.He never did it again.
He then got the .475 and .500 Linebaugh designed, and designed the .585 Nyati for a cheap backup gun for buffalo.

NOT the reference I'd use for an example of using enough gun.

So what. Cape buffalo have been known to absorb lead from much bigger hammers in quantity, particularly when hit badly the first shot. The .45 wasn't lacking in the least, and he finished the fight on his own without backup and he used four shots, not five, including the misplaced first shot. The 345 grain bullets chronographed 1,490 fps and evidently worked well out of a six-shot Seville. Remember, that this was before Ross got his five-shot Bowen-built Bisley. Ross had nothing to do with the designing of the .475 and .500 Linebaughs but he did expose the shooting world to them.

A 45 Colt in a strong handgun can be a very capable weapon on large game. You need good ammo (hard/heavy bullets) & you need to break down the big bears & then kill them. They are shorter & more compact than moose & the heavy muscle can test any bullet.
I've taken several bears but no Browns & I've taken moose with a sixgun & been in on several others but these were Shiras moose, not nearly as big as the Goliaths in Alaska but as big as many Brown bears. All sixgunned moose were one shot kills with cast slugs.
I've always considered moose to be an easier kill than elk but have no way to prove it, just my thoughts. Again, pound them through the shoulders with the 45 to anchor them & then finish the fight, this is important with any dangerous game whether with a sixgun or a rifle. Also its fairly easy to top off a single action if you are down 1-2 rounds, you don't have to swing out the cylinder & risk dumping everything on the ground if things get western.

Two guys were sitting in a ground blind waiting for a huge Brown bear to walk by, when it got real close one guy wispered to the other.... do you smell that, his buddy whispered back, yes, I'm sitting in it!! Just kidding!!

Dick

quote:

Also its fairly easy to top off a single action if you are down 1-2 rounds, you don't have to swing out the cylinder & risk dumping everything on the ground if things get western.

Dick

You should have seen me, after dumping all 6 rounds in to my bull moose and trying to reload ASAP. It wern't purdy! Nor fast!

Alan

quote:

. Ross had nothing to do with the designing of the .475 and .500 Linebaughs but he did expose the shooting world to them.

Any support for this statement?

You don't think Ross and John L. talked on the phone?
I always got the impression that when you built something for Seyfried it was going to be to his specs, and particulars.

Yeah, I spoke with Ross last week and I talk to John Linebaugh fairly frequently. What gave you the idea that Ross had anything to do with it? He was the first to report on it in the popular gun media, but he didn't design it.

Ross give the impression that he's capable of such stuff, since in a lot of his writings, he does things like lapping barrels, etc. that most never even think about.

Also, when it comes to his customs, he's so particular about the specs, barrel, etc.

After the cape buffalo deal, I can't help but think he came back, told John L. the story, and said something like,
"Can you make something bigger?"

At the time he was one of the best shots in the world, and he got out of it with his life by a nose.

Where is Seyfried, and what's he doing?
Always seemed like a great guy, and a gentleman.

How's the little guy?

quote:

Originally posted by 550375:
Ross give the impression that he's capable of such stuff, since in a lot of his writings, he does things like lapping barrels, etc. that most never even think about.

Also, when it comes to his customs, he's so particular about the specs, barrel, etc.

After the cape buffalo deal, I can't help but think he came back, told John L. the story, and said something like,
"Can you make something bigger?"

At the time he was one of the best shots in the world, and he got out of it with his life by a nose.

Where is Seyfried, and what's he doing?
Always seemed like a great guy, and a gentleman.

How's the little guy?

Being capable and doing it are 2 different things not the same at all.

Ross's favorit revolver cartridge and about all he uses today is the 45 Colt. Ross sold his Elk Song Ranch and is in transisition

Ross is not the only one to have taken a Cape Buffalo with the 45 Colt

This post has caused me to really think about my past and the countless bears,even though black,but some extremely large that were taken with various 45 colt loadings and I wouldn't hesitate a minute to face up with a brown bear whether inner or coastal.

I think the shot placement would be king here and magnified.I have found there are people who use a handgun to hunt and there are others who hunt to use a handgun.The latter usually are better shots and handle the stressers better.

Wish Ross well, and God Bless him.
When you say .45 Colt, I gather you mean the heavy .45 Colt 5 shot?

quote:

Originally posted by 550375:
Wish Ross well, and God Bless him.
When you say .45 Colt, I gather you mean the heavy .45 Colt 5 shot?

Loaded to 30,000 psi puts in better company than the .44 mag. You don't have to load it to
"5-shot Colt" levels to be effective, and in fact I think they work better when not pushed to Casull-like levels. A six-shot Ruger can handle the levels we are talking about.

You seem to have the impression that Ross barely sorted the Cape buffalo out, but that couldn't be further from the truth. He misjudged his first shot, and then the party started. Ross and the .45 Colt proved to be more than up to the task at hand.

no not heavy just a plain ol sixshot

quote:

Originally posted by cottonstalk:
no not heavy just a plain ol sixshot

Yep, a Ruger strength level 6 shot is a hell 0f a performer IME loaded in the 30 thousand PSI range

Maybe it was his wonderful, dramatic writing style that gave me that impression.

I was wondering which gun Ross had kept?
So, it's a 6 shot, loaded between .45 Colt and .44 Magnum pressures?
Sort of the same as the .44 Special Keith/Skeeter loads?

Which of the current Ruger offerings are strong enough for such loads?

I gather not the Vaquero?

Ross has stated that the Seville 5 shot 45 Colt shot very well for him, but I believe that Ross is useing a 6 SHot Ruger Bisley in 45 Colt

Funny, but except for Cowboy loads, .475 and .480 ammo from Hornady is cheaper, and with way more punch then their .45 Colt offerings.

The key here is "their offerings" meaning Hornady's. I have used Hornady's .480 ammo (325 grain loads) and they don't punch that hard. Hornady, like many of the mainstream and larger manufacturers, they load the .45 Colt light (it has a SAAMI spec pressure limit of 14,000 psi due to all of the old revolvers out there in .45 Colt). There are much better sources for even .475 and .480 ammo than Hornady, particularly if big game is on the menu.

i like the hornady 454 and 475 loads up to elk and buffalo, i'd go a different route for bigger african and whatnot, but whit is right, grizzly, doubletap, buffalo bore, and in some calibers corbon offer really great loads. b/w buffalo bore and doubletap my two favs in 45 colt. you can run mild to wild and kill anything that walks imho.

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
b/w buffalo bore and doubletap my two favs in 45 colt. you can run mild to wild and kill anything that walks imho.

Amen to that! Grizzly also has great .45 Colt loads that we recently tested and they are awesome!

cool, i'm gonna try some grizzly loads, looks like they reduced some prices. i've heard good things. gotta stock up on the punch bullets in 454 for the inevitable elephant hunt in the next few years.

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
cool, i'm gonna try some grizzly loads, looks like they reduced some prices. i've heard good things. gotta stock up on the punch bullets in 454 for the inevitable elephant hunt in the next few years.

You won't be disappointed!

Grizzly is great ammo, and Mike Rintoul (owner)a great guy.

quote:

Originally posted by kaytod:
Grizzly is great ammo, and Mike Rintoul (owner)a great guy.

I couldn't agree more!

Didn't one of Ross's african guides refer to his Seville as the "little 458?" Reportedly because it was so effective on buffalo!!

Yup, it was effective on everything he used it on. He used a .429 Magnum extensively before taking a .45 Colt to Africa and was underwhelmed.

Welcome to the forum, tsm06!

On the history if the 475 and 500 Linebaughs, I believe that at the time, Linebaugh and Bowen were both making .510 5 shot conversions based on the 348 Win case. Winchester anounced that they were going to quit producing the 348, so they went looking for another big bore round for their 5 shot conversions. Linebaugh talked to Bowen, who had been playing with a .475 on a cut down 45-70, they worked together to standardize and produce the 475 Linebuagh.
I don't recall who wrote the article about it, might have been Seyfried, but feel free to correct anything that I may have not remembered correctly.
John said that he played around with turning the rims down on the 45-70 cases to what the current 480 rim is, but decided to leave them as is.

As for which current Ruger offerings will handle the 28k loadings, it is the fullsize frame of the Blackhawk and old Vaquero, not the newer small framed Vaquero.

Glenn, perhaps a bit more fill in for the blanks...

The 500 Linebaugh was John's own brainchild, However the idea was "borrowed" from two fellas, who's names I cannot remember, who had made up a firearm in the .51 bore years prior. John can tell you their names as this is where he got the concept and he was then able bring it into a working reality. I believe John actually talked to Homer Powley regarding the internal ballistic aspects of the 500 in it's initial development.

I don't know for sure, but I'm certain Bowen was chambering John's 500 after it's introduction. Yes, Winchester was letting the 348 "go". Bowen had already done the "475 Magnum" and was met with little enthusiasm. I believe it was closer to a 1.5" case not the 1.4 of the 500. John took it on as per conversaton with Bowen and the 1.4" version or 475 Linebaugh was "born". And Yes he thought of turning the rims down as they would look more proprotionate, but with the Ruger conversions, it was a needless step as they cleared the ratchet as did the 500 on the 348 Case.

The story of the 475 gets far more dramatic as subsequent manufacturers began getting involved in it's entry into the factory realm. It is not needed nor necessary for that birthing to be explicitly detailed here.

As per anothers earlier post, I do believe the original 45 colt Ross S. took to Africa was a Seville with an oversize 6 shot cylinder, not the 5 shot. A strong 45 colt. At one time I was privelaged to read the actual letters from Ross. Alas the details are lost to my memory at the moment.

Of course you could always call John himself. I'm sure he would be clear up any confusion. I too, would be glad to hear the details again myself. Perhaps I can again in the near future.

all the best

jwp475 had the very first .475 that Bowen built, and perhaps he can shed some light on the situation. If I can recall correctly, he had to get the specs from JL.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
jwp475 had the very first .475 that Bowen built, and perhaps he can shed some light on the situation. If I can recall correctly, he had to get the specs from JL.

I spoke to John Linebaugh aobut building me a 5 shot 45 Colt after finding the 44 mag lacking for my tastes on big game in Alaska. JL recommended the 500L, but I didn't want to go to the bother of neck reaming the 348 Win case. At that point JL informed me that he wasa working on a 475 that only required shortening 45-70 brass to 1.4" and then loadeing without having to turn the case walls down to accept the bullet. JL at that time was 6 months behind on order so I called Hamiliton Bowen and asked if he could build me a 475. He said that he had built 500L's and saw no reason why he could not build a 475. Mr. Bowen also stated that he knew that JL was working on a 475 and wanted to wait until JL had the chamber spec's worked out inorder for the chamber to be the same therfore his revolver and JL's would use the same ammo.

Back then Winnchester 45-70 brass was the choice for cutting down to 1.4" as the walls were thin enough not to require turning

I had my revolver in time for the 1988 hunting season and I shot the first bull Moose and artic Grizzly ever shot with the 475L.

Jl. is aware of this since I had stayed in contact with him since that fiorst conversation