quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Redhawk, I wasn't trying to be smart but the thought of a roll in the hand made me think of something.
When I was involved in target archery I used to rub my bow hand with cocoa butter. Talk about slippery! But the grip would seat exactly the same shot to shot and prevented torque. The thought of greasing your .500 made me laugh.
Back to the roll, mine don't and maybe it is because of the size of my hands. I hear guys that don't like the rubber grips complain about rubbed palms and blisters, I don't get that either.
The problem I had with relaxing for deer was that my arm would come up too fast, not the gun rolling. I have to straighten my elbows more and keep my wrist stiffer.
If you think the boolit is gone before the gun rises, shoot a target with your two hand hold, then shoot it again with one hand and post the picture. Why does a fast light boolit hit low and a slower heavy boolit hit high? Why does speeding up a boolit lower the point of impact?

I know what you are talking about. It is like shooting a 38 and a 357 Mag, or a 44 Special and a 44 mag.

That is also why people get different size front sights.

As JWP stated, the reward momentum starts as soon as the trigger is pulled. As the bullet travels down the barrel, the muzzle will start to rise ever so slightly.

As for why a slower bullet is hitting high shooting it out of the same gun, as you do a faster bullet, your sights are set for the faster bullet not the slower bullets. The reason the faster bullet hits lower is because it leaves the barrel before the barrel reaches it rise, the slower bullet is in the barrel longer and the rise effects the bullet more. It does not take a lot of muzzle rise to effect a bullets impact. Even the slightest rise will effect the trajectory of a bullet. Also the distance you shoot will effect how much you notice the difference.

If you shoot a 38 in a gun you normally shoot 357 Mags in, and you are shooting at say 5 feet, you will not notice a difference in the impact, now move out to 15 years, you will see how it is different. You will notice a big difference in impact.
The amount of time a bullet spends in the barrel effects the muzzle rise also. But like I said, all this happens in milliseconds.

Also I know what you are talking about when relaxing while hunting, I guess we get in the mind set like rifle hinting. When I shoot my rifles, I am relaxed, you can't do that with these big boomers. I always have to remind myself, I am handgun hunting.

It is like the first one or two rounds at the range, you have to tell yourself to have a tighter grip.
I have seen guys step up to the line and miss there first shot all together on a 18 X 18 inch target. Once the realized the were actually shooting a handgun and got the proper grip, did they start shooting and hitting the target.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
There are a number of variables involved with this process and even a slight change in any one them can create a noticeable difference between point of aim and point of impact. Another reason, if not the reason, that consistency is vital in the shooting sports.

Agreed 100%. That is why I like to shoot as much as I do. "Consistency" That is why I can pick up any of my handguns and shoot them well, I use the same grip every time. I never limp hold any handgun.

Now we are all on the same page!
My problem with deer was because they don't excite me and I was shooting too relaxed and loose unlike on the range. It always worked with the .44 but the added recoil of the .475 doesn't work the same. I am half asleep when hunting and needed a kick in the butt. I even dozed with a buck under me while waiting for a shot.
A lot has to do with gutting the deer, getting it to the house and butchering. Sometimes I just don't want to! That is the part of hunting I have gotten tired of.
I do the same with squirrels. I use a .22 pistol and only shoot enough for a few meals. I hate to skin the things. Old age I guess.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
When the bullet is leaving the barrel, Newton's law kicks in and an equal but opposite reaction occurs. The rearward force creates a "moment" or turning force at the point of the grip frame that is being held the tightest.

At the risk of being accused of brown-nosing the moderator...

Hitman is absolutely correct on the dynamics of shooting a single action. The grips do not have to slip in your hand for the gun to "roll." To understand a proper "roll in the hand" think of a parachute landing where the paratrooper allows his feet to hit first (butt of the single action) and then spreads out the rest of the impact by rolling backwards.

While it's not a perfect analogy, a double action grip is more like a paratrooper landing flat on his back instead of rolling.

The force gets spread out over time with a single action grip instead of hitting straight back all at once. I think shooters must be losing their common sense - we used to know this and only used single actions for the heavy hitters like the Casull. With a double action or a factory Encore or Contender, the web of your hand arrests the roll and absorbs the brunt of the recoil. To me, Pachmayr grips only make things worse. (Yes, I've been initiated into the Fellowship of the Red Hand )

Once I figured out why my hand and shoulder hurt so bad when shooting my Encore pistol in 454 Casull, I started holding it lower which allowed it to roll, and then it became tolerable to shoot!

The only thing I find wrong with MS Hitman statement "When the bullet is leaving the barrel, Newton's law kicks in and an equal but opposite reaction occurs."

Actually Newtons law happens as soon as the bullet starts to move, not when it leaves the barrel.

DrHenley, I know exactly what you are talking about with the roll and that is why none of my single action guns have rubber grips.

Shooting light loads in a hogleg with a loose grip can allow the grip to slip in the hand. I can see that. That is why the guys that buy cannons and try the looser grip thing will have the gun roll and scuff the palm.
Maybe we should not call it "roll" but "wrist break" when a large bore is held right. It seems that we are talking about two different actions during recoil.
If the gun is held right the wrist will break up and the forearm will follow and the grip will not slip, or "roll" in the hand.
The wrist is not strong enough to hold a gun down but the forearm is and can prevent over shooting even when the wrist bends up.
That is where I corrected my overshooting on deer, NOT by holding the gun tighter but by preventing my elbow from letting the gun rise too quickly.
We all are on the same page but are confusing two different actions by using one word for both.
Picture "roll" when your arm and wrist does not move but the gun barrel rises to vertical as the grip slips in your hand.
Guys that shoot a hogleg like that will always say the Bisley and double action will not "roll". Held right, the hogleg has the same feel as any other gun.

Yep, Redhawk is correct, I should back up a millisecond and said leaving the case, not the barrel. Sometimes I just get too far ahead of myself.

MS Hitman -- you are alotted a milisecond......

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
Yep, Redhawk is correct, I should back up a millisecond and said leaving the case, not the barrel. Sometimes I just get too far ahead of myself.

I just did not want anyone to get confused...lol

Well, if there is a question, let 'em touch one off. That should clear things immediately.