Check this out 4 hits out of 5 at 300 yards

http://www.youtube.com/texasfivegun

Nice shooting. I don't think I know him but he might be one of the Shootists. Anyone know his online name or his last name?

That's some really nice shooting. I would love to know what the load is.

There are 3 other earlier videos detailing gun work, loads, etc. He mentions shooting cast 440's at about 1150. That was the same load I used in my Bowen .500 Linebaugh. It's a very mild load and very controllable. It's basically a Linebaugh "special" of sorts but it will go through most game quite handily. The Linebaugh will get up to around 1400 with that bullet if you push it hard.

You're right about not needing to push them hard for them to punch through game. I go for accuracy first and foremost with any load I am deveolping and I let the velocity fall where it does.........

Now Whitworth, who taught you that?
This should put the 20 yd guys in their place!
Then don't all of you know a large meplat boolit is no good at over a few yd's?

I have found that the 1100-1200 range is everything I need for the 500 Linebaugh and .44 mag. That includes everything in Alaska. Both guns will deliver more velocity but I haven't needed it.

That velocity gives me exits from any angle with a good LBT bullet design. It's also more accurate than I can hold in the field. I don't really load for accuracy in my carry guns. I load for that velocity range and then I work on my field accuracy, which is more about technique than equipment. I never redline any of my guns because it's just counterproductive.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
You're right about not needing to push them hard for them to punch through game. I go for accuracy first and foremost with any load I am deveolping and I let the velocity fall where it does.........

Now that we all can agree on. I have been telling people that for years. But there are them guys that feel they have to squeeze as much velocity of there round. And that is the main reason I could care less about a chronograph. If I use printed data and stay within the Min/Max data I have a good idea I am safe.

Handgun range I don't worry about a lot of velocity.

Couldn't agree with you more, but there are those who aren't happy unless their loads are scorching fast.......but what good is it if you can't hit what you aim at??

Now if everyone did that we could eliminate 50% of the argument here...lol

Redhawk,

A chronograph can be very useful; and I'll give you a specific example. I bought some surplus powder (WC 820) and was told to load it to WW296 specs. I did this, and by the time I got to 24.0 grains, the 240 grain Hornady was going 1546 fps out of my Bisley.

I decided to load all my revolvers calibers from .32 Mag to .475 with some Alliant 2400 I have on hand. All calibers were within 10 fps of the same weight WC 820 and 2400 loads.

I am talking about using loads that are printed, not a load that someone gives me.

I have been reloading for over 25 years and I have yet to feel the need for a chronograph. Now if I was developing loads from scratch, sure a chronograph would help, but in my opinion 95% of the people the reload and stick to printed and tested data will be in the ball park on the velocity printed.

Most of the guys I see at the range with the chronograph's are the guys trying to push every fps out of there case that they can get. They usually are the ones the brag about how fast there rounds go. But you never hear how accurate they are.

Is a chronograph as good thing to have, sure it is, is it necessary for the everyday reloader using establish load data, I don't think so. JMHO.

I understand, that was the loading data given to me by the guy selling the powder. No, a chronograph is not an absolute necessity, but it can sure help sometimes.

Anyway, mileages vary.

I consider the chronograph a bit of a luxury that's fun to use when load deveolping is all said and done........ But, I do like to chronograph, don't get me wrong!

I have a chrono but rarely use it. It's a nice tool to refer to occasionally but it usually stays home.

The chronograph is a very usefull tool IMHO when developing loads, when velocity is tight (meaning a low Standard Deviation) that indicates a very consitant load. I agree it is not 100% nessecary but usefull none thae less.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
The chronograph is a very usefull tool IMHO when developing loads, when velocity is tight (meaning a low Standard Deviation) that indicates a very consitant load. I agree it is not 100% nessecary but usefull none thae less.

I agree with you 100%.I am looking for consistancy more that velocity.With out a chrono,you are just guessing.Relying on loads out of a book and the velocity that they publish does not work for me. I seldom find the velocities in most manuals to be anywhere close to real world velocity.Seldom do you have the same length barrel as the test model,nor the same make.While it can give you a generalization,they sometimes are way off.(Just my opinion) OB

They are not called "heart-breakers" for nothing.

When I was a car magazine hack, we used to refer to the engine dynomometer as the polygraph -- it would undoubtedly detect the truth!

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
I agree with you 100%.I am looking for consistancy more that velocity.With out a chrono,you are just guessing.Relying on loads out of a book and the velocity that they publish does not work for me. I seldom find the velocities in most manuals to be anywhere close to real world velocity.Seldom do you have the same length barrel as the test model,nor the same make.While it can give you a generalization,they sometimes are way off.(Just my opinion) OB

We are not talking a lot of difference in handguns as far as the velocity is concerned. I have used a chronograph in the past and I have loads I have used for many years, and they have proven themselves in the field. 98% of the shots I have taken on game with my handguns , I have never recovered the bullet, so something I am doing in working right.

No doubt a chronograph is nice to use, it's just not feasible for me to use them perhaps as frequently as I would like to, but that hasn't really had any negative effects on load development........

What does it matter if your load does not reach book figures? What animal ever complained if hit at 1300 fps instead of 1400 fps? Too many guys live and sleep with the book! All you need to know and be concerned with is minimum and maximum charges and what powder to choose.
Then the question of low SD's for accuracy! Nothing can be farther from what actually happens and almost every accurate load will have large SD's. Besides that, you can't even gather enough information about SD's unless many, many shots are fired. 5 or 10 shots won't tell you a thing.
You can have an SD of ONE and shoot the worst groups you ever seen.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
What does it matter if your load does not reach book figures? What animal ever complained if hit at 1300 fps instead of 1400 fps? Too many guys live and sleep with the book! All you need to know and be concerned with is minimum and maximum charges and what powder to choose.
Then the question of low SD's for accuracy! Nothing can be farther from what actually happens and almost every accurate load will have large SD's. Besides that, you can't even gather enough information about SD's unless many, many shots are fired. 5 or 10 shots won't tell you a thing.
You can have an SD of ONE and shoot the worst groups you ever seen.

No arguement about SD here.What I need an accurate measure of velocity for is tracking the flight of the bullet.With the approximate BC(Yes I know it changes with velocity)I can determine holdover to certain distances.I regulary shoot my handguns out to 200 yds using iron sights,cause thats how long my backyard range is.I save a lot of time if I can plot the trajectory before hand.I aint talkin precision shooting here.I am talking happier than hell I am hitting the target.When I use my scoped Contender in 7MM TCU I can make little bitty groups.

I know that at realitively clos ranges a High SD is not a big deal in-reguards to accuracy, BFRShooter likes to shoot out to 500 yards and a High SD can and will efect this type of long range accuracy. I was very surprised to hear him say that it did not mater..

Very true, none of the small SD's I have ever had shot good at any range, even with my BPCR. If you go through all of the magazines like handloader you will see the same thing. The tightest groups always have a larger SD. Long ago I started to ignore those readings and just go by groups at all ranges instead.
I find the mean average deviation will tell more.
Boolit stability at long range is much more important then a small difference in velocity.
I gave up working loads with the chrono because I was looking for the smallest SD, it will drive one nuts. Now the thing doesn't come out until I have the load working and it is for info only in case someone asks what I am getting. They are fun to play with but I never depend on them for making a load. Holes in the target show me all I need.
If I increase a load and groups open but the SD is small, guess what? I will decrease the load to the best spot.

The actual best way to find out how your gun shots at different ranges is to shot it at different ranges.

I spent some time going through gun and load tests last night and there were a LOT of loads with small SD's of 10, some less. What will catch your attention is some of the tightest groups were shot with 20 to 32 SD's, some MUCH higher.
Then the important part was two loads with 10, one would be around 2" while the other was over 6". If the SD's were so important, should not every group shot with the same number be the same size?
To be fair, there were a few loads with low SD's that shot good but I will be the last to say that was the reason. I do not believe there is any connection at all.
I would say burn rate, match of boolit to twist, the velocity both like, design of bullet/boolit and a bunch of other factors just makes searching for low SD's a waste of time.
If you are shooting 1/2" or less at 100 yd's with high SD's, the only thing that will blow long range groups will be boolit stability.
Take any bullet/boolit and load that does not match the gun and shoot them with an SD of zero, then tell me if they all go through the same hole!

Now I see the discrepence, 20 to 30 is not that high in a revolver. An extreme spread of 100 FPS is not going to shoot well at distance. 20 to 30 is high for a rifle, but not realy for a revolver.

It would be great to get every shot the same velocity. No beef there at all from me.
I just don't like SD's. Extreme spread and mean average deviation means more to me. I don't know if it is the math in how SD is figured but it seems to be lacking something. I know I have had many horrible groups with SD's down around 3 or 4.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
It would be great to get every shot the same velocity. No beef there at all from me.
I just don't like SD's. Extreme spread and mean average deviation means more to me. I don't know if it is the math in how SD is figured but it seems to be lacking something. I know I have had many horrible groups with SD's down around 3 or 4.

That is Standard Deviation (SD)is it not?

No, it is figured different. it is the average deviation between the high and low velocity. I think it gives a better picture of velocity variations. I think fewer shots are needed to see a change but with SD you should shoot a lot more because it seems to change readings based on numbers shot too much.
My pact gives all three readings plus the average velocity. I just ignore the SD portion.
For instance my chrono readings for the .280 I had showed an SD of 2.8 which sounds bad for the groups I was getting. But the MAD was only 1.9 which says each shot only varied + or- 1.9 fps from the average velocity (not quite sure how it is figure but I think that is right. Just can't add it up to equal the ES.) and the total ES was only 5.7 fps.
I have had SD's as high as 40 with a load but the ES was fairly low with this rifle. I still had groups under 1" with this load. Makes you scratch your head too much.

In probability and statistics, the standard deviation is a measure of the dispersion of a set of values. It can apply to a probability distribution, a random variable, a population or a multiset. The standard deviation is usually denoted with the letter σ (lower case sigma). It is defined as the root-mean-square (RMS) deviation of the values from their mean, or as the square root of the variance.

Formulated by Galton in the late 1860s,[1] the standard deviation remains the most common measure of statistical dispersion, measuring how widely spread the values in a data set are. If many data points are close to the mean, then the standard deviation is small; if many data points are far from the mean, then the standard deviation is large. If all data values are equal, then the standard deviation is zero. A useful property of standard deviation is that, unlike variance, it is expressed in the same units as the data.

When only a sample of data from a population is available, the population standard deviation can be estimated by a modified standard deviation of the sample, explained below.

[edit] A simple example
Suppose we wished to find the standard deviation of the set of the numbers 4 and 8.

Step 1: find the arithmetic mean (or average) of 4 and 8,

(4 + 8) / 2 = 6.
Step 2: find the deviation of each number from the mean,

4 − 6 = − 2
8 − 6 = 2.
Step 3: square each of the deviations (amplifying larger deviations and making negative values positive),

( − 2)2 = 4

22 = 4.
Step 4: sum the obtained squares (as a first step to obtaining an average),

4 + 4 = 8.
Step 5: divide the sum by the number of values, which here is 2 (giving an average),

8 / 2 = 4.
Step 6: take the non-negative square root of the quotient (converting squared units back to regular units),


So, the standard deviation of the set is 2.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation

I guess I better explain the real reason!
I HATE MATH and at my age I have trouble with 2 X 2. I even need a little calculator when cutting on the lathe.
In the old days I would just find what my guns liked and never cared what the loads were doing and it was easy. Then the silly chrono came home with me and it was fun to see the velocity. I hate to carry it all down and set it up too. (Ask Whitworth about my hill!) I will always work loads without it first.
When loading airplanes I had to count every bag, add up all the mail as I loaded it, keep track of the freight and how much weight each pit held. Fueling was a math nightmare.
For a long time after retiring I would count as I did something and have to stop myself. (I still do it even after putting cases in the block, I start counting as I size, etc.)
PLEASE, no more math!

This post has digressed and my head hurts reading it...... STOP THE MADNESS!

Kind of take's the fun out of shooting.
Sorry but I refuse to get so anal about loading up ammo.

I have been reloading for over 25 years and what ever I am doing it works.

I never could get game to stay around long enough to tell the the SD, fps, fpe of the round they were going to get shot with.

Can't survey dead animals....... Jeese, just work up a load that is consistently accurate and practice, practice, practice, and be done with it........JMHO

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
This post has digressed and my head hurts reading it...... STOP THE MADNESS!

Mental Midget....

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Can't survey dead animals....... Jeese, just work up a load that is consistently accurate and practice, practice, practice, and be done with it........JMHO

Every dead animal that I have survayed were unamamous with their opinion of the loads "effective" were the results of the poll

Dang, now I'm a mental midget......

Stop arguing minutia (how's that word word for a mental midget! I even know what it means!!), and go kill some animals!

My last deer had headphones on and a laptop!