In the Fall 2005 Issue of Handgun Hunter Magazine on page 52 there is an article titled "Four Out Of Five Ain't Bad" it is about Larry Rogers whom took 4 of the African "Big 5" with a handgun.
Larry took a Rhino with a Freedom Arms 475 loaded with 425 grain WFN by Cast Performance Bullets. Larry shot the Rhino twice and got 4 1/2 feet of penetration with the first shot and 5 feet with the secound bullet.
With this level of performance how could one want more?
If any one questions the penetration there is an esteemed member of our forum that can vouch for Larry's account.

I read that article and that's pretty remarkable penetration! I wonder how fast that load was going...... Curious as to the load he was using.

Well guys, with a Freedom with the short cylinder and the depth the 425 gr boolit has to be seated, I would say a hefty load was what was used.
About what we are shooting in our guns with my WFN that is seated deep enough to fit a Freedom. 1329 fps is what I get with the BFR. Whitworth uses 1/2 gr more powder in his SRH and the Freedom would need that little bit more too because of the twist rate. So it would be a tad higher.
Goes to show that anything that uses a .475 boolit no matter how it is labeled or loaded will sure do the job from any gun.

That PorkyPine I shot yesterday with the 400 Gr. Lee want down like a sack a Quills!!!!!

I believe we have determined the twist rate on the SRH and the FAs are the same. I'm curious as to why it's okay for one brand, but too fast for the other if this is indeed the case.

The load in question was 24.0 grains of 296 behind the 425 CP WFNGC if I remember correctly.

The Ruger has a 1:18 twist and I believe that the Freedom is the same. 24 grains of 296 is a pretty mild load -- goes to show that you don't need to push 'em real fast for deep penetration!

Appears to be 2.5 grains less and not much over 1200 FPS also I'sd say...

I may actually get a chance to shoot that revolver and clock the load later on this month. If I do, I'll let everyone know how fast it was going.

Excellent! Looking forward to hearing all about it! It's obviously an effective load -- hell, he took a rhino with it -- BIG game...... VERY BIG game.......

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Excellent! Looking forward to hearing all about it! It's obviously an effective load -- hell, he took a rhino with it -- BIG game...... VERY BIG game.......

And that is what the 475 is all about..

MS, the SRH and Freedom both have 1 in 18" twists. The BFR has a 1 in 15".
The BFR uses about 1/2 gr less powder for top accuracy but will shoot a much heavier boolit more accurately then the other two.
I am talking strictly accuracy with no regard to velocity.
The same velocity can be reached with all three guns but each (SRH and Freedom VS the BFR.) needs a different charge for the best accuracy.

24 gr's is a mild load but only accurate enough for close range. The most accurate load with that boolit from the Freedom would be 26.5 gr's.
It only depends on what someone wants for groups and not how good the gun will kill big game.
There would not be much difference in penetration between both loads but for 100 yd's and more, I prefer the most accurate load.

He got FIVE feet of penetration out of that load! WOW!! That's a three-ton animal!! Yikes! Can't argue with that kind of penetration and dare I say that you would be hard pressed to get that kind of pentration from a rifle (choose the caliber! ).......food for thought......

bfrshooter,

You simply still DO NOT know what you are talking about, or still are on your FA envy kick. I spoke with the man last night and the load in question is plenty accurate enough to shoot deer at over 100 yards and headshots on groundhogs out past 40 yards.

Considering Doc Rogers is within 250 kills of having taken 11,000 groundhogs with handguns; he probably knows a thing or two about it. Given the number of deer he's taken with handguns, he know that game well too.

You still are the only person I have heard having trouble shooting heavy bullets accurately from a FA chambered for any caliber. I've just got wonder if it's not just you.

MS Hitman, I know what you are talking about.

No one can say how well a gun is going to shoot just by the load. Every gun shoots differently, every gun needs to find what works best in a particular gun. The reason for load development.

BFRshooter, how can you say one load will not work well in a FA ?

Accuracy can be different from one gun to another in the same manufacture.

I've made headshots on groundhogs out to and slightly past 50 yards using the Lee bullet, which according to some is not accurate in the FAs. The blanket statement that FAs will not accurately shoot the heavier bullets is patently false, and will remain so regardless of how many times it is made.

I have never considered the FA revolvers innaccurate, but on occassion -- as is the case with all makes -- you get one that doesn't shoot well. That said, they are a very finely constructed firearm -- a bit pricey (understatement!), but very fine. They do have a short cylinder, limiting bullet choice -- which is the gist (I believe) of what bfrshooter is getting at. My Ruger also has a shorter cylinder than the BFR offering, and this has prevented me from trying out some of the longer nosed bullets out there (even though I could seat them deeper). The FA has an even shorter cylinder than the SRH. That said, is it a problem? Nah, you can always seat the bullet deeper in the case, and you don't need a boatload of velocity anyhow........ Not trying to cause a pissing contest here -- pause for visual:

Whitworth,

The FA does have a shorter cylinder. This requires different bullets than what may be used in the BFR or Ruger conversions. That is not my objection to bfr's statement. I understand each different maker will have a product that is not up to snuff. Again, I do not have a problem with bfr's statement regarding an individual revolver that may or may not shoot to his expectations.

His blanket statement that a FA revolver will not shoot a heavier weight bullet accurately is simply not true.

My conversion has nearly the same bullet limitations as the FA......but I am fine with that! I found the bullet I like and that is that! I hear exactly where you are coming from.

I am eager to hear about the chrono results of that load! I'll bet it is not going much faster than 1,200 fps and it has proven to be a performer and a half!

MS, I am talking EXTREME accuracy, not general purpose shooting and hunting. I have spent four years working with various Freedom's and they will indeed shoot heavy boolits good enough for practicle purposes. But I want you to show me actual groups to 100 yd's with heavy boolits. You are making a larger blanket statement then I am!
I have found that the Freedom .475 needs a lighter boolit to go under 1" at 50 yd's and as boolit weight goes up, so does the velocity need to go up.
It is funny that when I state different guns need different boolits and loads to perform at their best, that someone jumps down my throat.
This conclusion is based on the twist rates and actual testing, not assumptions.
If you get that gun to play with, shoot with the 24 gr load, POST GROUP PICTURES. Then work up and if groups don't tighten I will back off from the truth.
Just because I said the SRH and the Freedom needs more powder does not mean I knocked the chip off your shoulder.
Witworth has seen it first hand in that his gun needs 1/2 gr more powder.
What in the hell did I say to rile you up?
I think Freedom sends a shoulder chip with each gun!

I am not afraid to post pictures. How about the best of 10 individual chamber tests done on a Freedom .357. This gun has had two new barrels and a new cylinder installed before measurements were to specs.
Anyone that tells me that all Freedoms are perfect is dreaming!

How about a beautiful Lyman semi-wadcutter in a Freedom?

I have no accuracy issues with my Freedom 475 and the twist rate is the same as all other 475 revolvers from all makers( linebaugh, Huntington,Bowen, Clements,etc) except the BFRs ..

This is fun. Keep going. I love to read all this.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bfrshooter:
I am not afraid to post pictures. How about the best of 10 individual chamber tests done on a Freedom .357. This gun has had two new barrels and a new cylinder installed before measurements were to specs.
Anyone that tells me that all Freedoms are perfect is dreaming!

bfrshooter,

I am curious on how you conducted your test. Did you use a Ransom Rest or over sandbags?

All I did was to state that the Freedom and SRH needs different loads then the BFR. I said nothing about how accurate they can be if loaded properly.
And that goes for all of the other custom guns with the same twist rate.
However those that have not done the work and testing I have done have come out of the closet again with accusations that I am biased against all Freedom guns. Notice that nobody said anything about the load difference the SRH needs!
JWP, you know me better then that! What did I say that was wrong?
It gets my goat when everyone thinks the Freedom is perfect and every one of them will shoot. I have news for those guys, some are tack drivers and some suck just like any other guns on the market.
I have some 460 gr boolits here that I will send to a Freedom owner to try. OH, I forgot, they won't fit! Come to think of it, they won't fit the SRH either. Does that imply that those guns are bad???? NO, it only means they need different boolits and loads.
Why do I get beat on when I state that?
How hard is it to understand that with the slower twist, the longer the boolit gets, the faster it has to be shot for stability? That once a boolit gets too long you CAN'T get the velocity needed. That only means there is a boolit weight limit for accuracy---JUST LIKE ANY OTHER GUN.
Darn funny how when I ask for group pictures at 50 and 100 yd's with heavy boolits that I get no response.
JWP, do you have any group pictures? Marko has shown what his SRH can do at 50 yd's with the proper load and that load would be great in the Freedom too. We do not hide behind words.
By the way, my 45-70 BFR shoots best with 300 to a max of 380 gr boolits. I have boolits to 540 gr's and I will never say the gun shoots them as good. The gun is not magic like the Freedoms are where you can shoot from 325 to 460 gr's with the same accuracy.
My BFR .475 HATES anything under 400 gr's too, but maybe I should say it is accurate with ANYTHING I feed it and I sure will not post any group pictures. I will just say so.
But accuracy is in the eye of the beholder. Some are happy with 2" groups at 25 yd's and come here to brag about it.

The .357 was shot both from sandbags with three shooters and also from Creedmore. This is NOT normal for a Freedom but is just one of the bad guns. They DO get a bad one just like all Rugers don't shoot good.
One club member brought a Ranson rest for us to play with. It had Ruger grip holders and I actually outshot it from Creedmore so don't think it is foolproof. I have a Freedom .475 here also that I get groups under 1" at 50 yd's from Creedmore with a 350 gr boolit. As I go up in boolit weight, groups start to open. I figure about 420 gr's is max for good accuracy and that is about 2" to 3" at 50 yd's. The SRH will get about 1" with the same load. Any heavier boolit needs such a short nose and has to be seated so deep that enough velocity can't be reached.
No matter what anyone says, the Freedom has much more limits then any other revolver.
The .454 we have worked with for years has trouble getting better then 1-1/2" at fifty yd's with a leupy scope on it.
Freedom owners hate BFR's, WHY, because they take any boolit and shoot better on the average with much less work. They also cost a lot less.
I am not afraid to post pictures and these are average BFR .475 groups at 50 yd's. I shot the can twice at 100 yd's. These groups are with a variety of boolits, not just one. Some Creedmore and some sandbags.
I have yet to see a Freedom owner post groups with all weight boolits from all calibers.

I forgot, the large target in the middle was shot at long range, 4 shots that I had left. I won't say how far, nobody would believe it anyway.

Any Freedom owners going to post pictures? I am interested in heavy .475 groups. Show me 420 to 460 gr groups. You might shut me up!
I don't want 20 yd groups snuck in either, tell the truth.
Someone was giving me crap that I could not shoot and said what I get with the Ruger .45 Vaquero was bull. I grabbed 5 rounds and went down to my range and shot them at 50 yd's Creedmore. This is a 347 gr boolit with 21.5 gr's of 296.

Only Witworth knows the truth about what I say but he is doing his best to keep the piece. I applaud him for that but I will only state the facts. I don't care if I rub some the wrong way.

Keep the peace?? Hell no, I am ready to raise Caine! Haha! I will attest to bfrshooter's shooting abilities -- he is all that and a box of donuts -- even though he bitches about old age, unsteady hands and rheumatism, and bad eyes, and arthritis and all that BS -- then, he shoots circles around you!! He must have been hell on wheels when he was a young buck!! He has humbled me on many an occasion.........

Like the man said, there is a bad gun that makes it through every now and again from every manufacturer.........it just happens to cost more if its a Freedom.......

For a man that doesn't even own one you've presented yourself as an authority on all things pertaining to FA. Since your infamous and error filled "Warning...!" post it's obvious you can't resist the urge to put in a "dig" every time the subject of FA's comes up.

You're no doubt a good shot, experienced handloader and kitchen table gunsmith but on the subject of Freedom Arms......you've got some sort of grudge mission going............

BFRShooter, You witnessed first hand the fine groups fired by Whitworth and his SRH. The SRH has the same twist as the Freedom Arms revolvers as well as the Huntingtons. the Linebaughs, the Bowens, the Clements, etc.

Dangit jwp, I told you that in my case it's voodoo magic! Haven't you learned anything here?

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Dangit jwp, I told you that in my case it's voodoo magic! Haven't you learned anything here?

ROTF LMAO

Exactly, JWP. That is because we did the work and it needs different loads. I can't change that.
Yeah, I know, I had a broken Freedom that would contact the firing pin at rest and I called the part a transfer bar instead of a hammer block and will never hear the end of it. Freedom owners are so defensive it will never go away.
I had shot them for years but it was the first time I had one apart and had no instructions. I ssen a part that was supposed to move up and down that didn't and named it wrong so I have to live with it.
Had I misnamed a part in any other gun I would have been corrected nicely but the Freedom guys went haywire.
The same as mold or mould. Which is correct? Seems as if, according to the dictionary, both are for both the stuff that grows and for casting. I used to print mould and was told I was wrong so now I say mold and am still told I am wrong. Strange how mold makers use both on the box the mould comes in!
But I have fun when I say Freedom! It just drives the kooks crazy.
Doesn't matter if I state a fact or make something up either!
I hate to see you side with them.

Give the guy a break, he has a few of them!! LOL!!

Isn't mold a fungus??

I not sideing with Freedom, per say, but every 475 that I have ever owned, Bowen, Huntington, etc have had a 1 in 18 twist barrel

It sure is Whitworth! But so is mould. the words are interchangable and both also mean something you cast in.
Since we call lead bullets boolits, maybe we should call what we cast lead in moolds!
Can't be much different then calling a hammer block a transfer bar!

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:

Doesn't matter if I state a fact or make something up either!

By your own words........