quote:

that Flat Top is one heck of a guy . He spends much of his time and money helping those in need...is a kind and loving husband and father, who works hard to give his family everything they could possible want.... is involved in the church and in the community...and, is an absolutely talented gunsmith, wildcater, reloader, and shooter"..........

flat top your a heck of a guy but you are still dellusional.Use an ice pick for defense and you may kill the guy who attacks even though they may have killed you,and your family and made it back to the hang out.Use a sledge hammer for defense aand the attack will stop instantly.I like sledge hammers

I do admire your passion for the 44,and it has done alot but in todays world there are better tools.Moving dirt with a shovel still gets dirt moved but moving it with a front loader makes it so much easier.

+1 Cottonstalk!

It gets it done, but not impressively IMO. The bigger bores do, as a matter of fact -- something you would know had you actually gone out and hunted with a big bore. This is where you seem to miss the point, flat top, most of us here started with the .44, but have since moved up. You, on the other hand, have never stepped up to a bigger caliber yet you are laying claims about them being only as effective as a properly loaded .44. Pure conjecture until you have actually done the deed.

Now I know penetration testing doesn't reveal everything about terminal performance, but it does give you a good idea. A .44 has never done very well at the Linebaugh Seminars compared to other revolver calibers. Odd, isn't it??

Whit; Your 405's will be in the mail today...FT is also a man of his word.

Whit and Cottonstalk; First off, if both of you started with the 44 mag and didnt see, or understand the "virtues" of the caliber, you need to revisit your decision to move to the more "limited" large bores. I have used the 44 mag for everything from small game (squirrel and rabbit) to furbearers, coyote, and deer. With the right bullet and load (and for any of these it does not take top end loads and heavyweight bullets to get the job done in short order), it takes game, and leaves them edible, and thier pelts in usable condition. To have a handgun that can be used exclusively for all of my handgun hunting is a real plus, and, to have that same handgun with the right load and bullet be able to take any animal on the face of this earth...is more than you can have with any other handgun cartridge. It "is" the most versatile handgun cartridge ever developed. I have friends that have taken all large North American Game with the 44 mag, and they have no complaints.... elk, moose, griz, blacks, browns and polars...no complaints! They still shoot the 44 mag and have no intentions of moving on to anything larger. All African game has been taken with the 44 mag, and that is "recorded" history. I also knew a fella that used the 41 mag for elk, moose and the big bears...he had no complaints either, and carried his 41 for "bear protection"!!!! What handgun cartridge is most used in Alaska for bear protection...the 44 mag....thousands of people must be wrong...right?!?!?! All this hoopla about the big bores only tells me that their are some folks on this forum who own these guns because they are infatuated with shooting the biggest most powerful handgun they can get their hands on....and there is nothing wrong with that, but, to contually try to discredit the 44 mag as being "obsolete" or not up to the job, when it has done the job for longer than most of you have been alive, is nothing but sheer folly. If you dismiss the 44 mag, then you must also dismiss the 450-400 NE, the 416 Rigby, 425 Westley Richards, the 45-70, the 338, the 375 H&H, the 30-30, the 30-06, the 22lr and a host of other cartridges, because all of these cartridges have been replaced by something more powerful....this whole converstion, and the "points" that you make, are unrealistic, unreasonable, illogical.....and, pure nonsense! some of you need to get your heads out of the clouds and come back to earth!

The .44 mag has always and only been "adequate." Why you cannot see the virtue in using a caliber that goes way beyond adequate is beyond my comprehension. Adequate for me is not good enough. You don't even need to load them hot for them to be more effective on game. Now, if one can't handle the recoil, I can understand staying with a smaller caliber, but if the recoil isn't an issue, then there is no logical reason not to move up unless you just like a gun or a caliber.

Again, try it, you might like it.

Seems to me the infatuation lies squarely in your corner.

quote:

Originally posted by flat top:
Whit; Your 405's will be in the mail today...FT is also a man of his word.

and the "points" that you make, are unrealistic, unreasonable, illogical.....and, pure nonsense! some of you need to get your heads out of the clouds and come back to earth!

You may be a man of your word; however, I can sense a different place where you seem to have your head flat top.

no one is discrediting the 44 just saying there are better tools.

quote:

gunsmith, wildcater, reloader, and shooter

do you still do these things the old way?No new fangled electrical lathes(WW era),files,screw drivers,pliers etc.?No new dies,shell holders,reloading equipment?Or do you do your metal work with a blacksmithing fire and a hammer and such?The old way worked!

The fact you were a wildcatter says you like better tools,because if you didn't what has done it would be adequate.

I think it was George Sanders, in his suicide note who said:
.
.
.
"I'm leaving because I am bored......"

i agree there's better "tools" in some cases and i think flat top would as well, but, where that difference starts and exists is another thing. i would, and so would many i have hunted with, disagree that the .44 is merely adequate on anything you can hunt here in this continent and is more than adequate on anything in africa up to the hippo. with a penetrator, the right hardcast, or a punch bullet it'll kill a buff deader than a doornail and do so more than just barely. the .480 loads used at the linebaugh seminar didn't exactly light it up in the penetration dept and i seem to remember one hardcast 410 gr load breaking apart and not making into the paper after breaking up on the bone.

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
i agree there's better "tools" in some cases and i think flat top would as well, but, where that difference starts and exists is another thing. i would, and so would many i have hunted with, disagree that the .44 is merely adequate on anything you can hunt here in this continent and is more than adequate on anything in africa up to the hippo. with a penetrator, the right hardcast, or a punch bullet it'll kill a buff deader than a doornail and do so more than just barely. the .480 loads used at the linebaugh seminar didn't exactly light it up in the penetration dept and i seem to remember one hardcast 410 gr load breaking apart and not making into the paper after breaking up on the bone.

Tradmark, do you realize that many, including John Linebaugh himself, advocate not loading the .475 beyond 1,200 fps -- you know, .480 Ruger level? I know your point was directed at me because I support the .480 as a caliber. You clearly like velocity, so it's not really a cartridge that appeals to you.

Whit; Adequate; "Sufficient for a specific requirement". I could ask for no more...from the mighty 44!

MS; I understand your insinuation....now, you are not only a moderator and a shrink...but a Proctologist as well.........your parents must be proud!!!!

Cottonstalk; I know that you guys go on websites and see all the big boys with thier fancy equipment and think...because you dont know, that is the way its done. It is not. Most gunsmithing requires the majority of work to be done by hand...it is a toolmakers art, and by the way, being a life long "professional" toolmaker, I will guarantee you that the hand, the eye, and a few pieces of precision measuring equipment (I am sure you remember those "old" micrometers, and veniers....which by the way are still used to this day in tool shops), will produce a tolerance perfect piece...just like an EDM will. Look at the difference between a mass produced gun and a custom job. The mass produced gun was turned out by all those modern machines that you talk about...the custom gun required "hand" work to make it a "precision" piece. Machines are good for getting it out fast....the hand is good for getting it out right! Ask any of the custom gunsmiths and they will tell you that the largest percentage of their work is accomlished by hand...that takes time and expertise, and that is why custom firearms cost what they do. There is one piece of modern equipment that we do have in our shop that is absolutely necessary for the work that we do...especially on firearms. It is a computerized, digitally controlled, liquid cooled TIG welder...very expensive... but it gives us the flexibility (heat and depth control) to do the very precise and intricate work required for our firearms trade.

Yes, flat top; as a matter of fact, my parents are very proud of me. Thanks!

The weight of one's opinion is directly related to the amount of experience they have. So, again, I must ask: Have you ever used anything bigger on game than a .44 magnum? If not, this is all conjecture and wishful thinking.

Flat top;
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Linebaugh seminar, June, near St Louis, Mo.
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I'll see you there.

Whit...I had my hunting partner read this thread, and he just called me and is ROFLHAO! He hunts deer with a 38 Special revolver, and is deadly with that gun! He has taken 150 to 180 class bucks in the 200 pound plus range many times, and drops them where they stand. He finds your musings about the big bores to be absolutely preposterous! He told me that if it takes that kind of power for someone to kill a "little" southern deer, that maybe golf or stamp collecting would be a better hobby. As I have said in previous posts, I hunted deer with the 45 ACP and 44 Special, and they work just dandy!!! I guess for deer hunting even I am "overbore" with the 44 mag!!!

MS; .....I have no doubt!

257X50; When in June? Get me some dates. I travel for my seasonal job, but, if I am in town, I will be there!!!!

Tradmark; What a breath of fresh air...somebody that knows what he's talking about!!!! I knew there had to be somebody on this forum that understood!!! Thanks for your input....too bad the rest of the 44 shooters here dont voice thier opinions...."if" there are any here...I think I just wandered into this "big bore only" forum by accident.

Flattop;
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Don't laugh, I don't know.
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We were talking the other night and he asked if I could be near St Louis in june.
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A man asks you to drive near 2,000 miles you figure he has a reason.
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I said I'd be there, details can sort them selves out.
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Give him a call and see who is setting it up.
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Or I'll get a hold of him after work.
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Either way he said there is a seminar that weekend...........

quote:

Originally posted by flat top:
Tradmark; What a breath of fresh air...somebody that knows what he's talking about!!!! I knew there had to be somebody on this forum that understood!!! Thanks for your input....too bad the rest of the 44 shooters here dont voice thier opinions...."if" there are any here...I think I just wandered into this "big bore only" forum by accident.

Don't get too happy too soon, tradmark's hammer of choice is a .454 Casull -- not a .429.

I rarely hunt deer in the South. You keep talking about deer. I hunt deer only once a year -- in the winter. No one here is advocating the use of big bores on deer alone. Does your buddy laugh at the fact that you load 405 grain bullets in your .44? He should, cuz I know the deer out your way don't require "that much bullet." Afterall, your buddy uses a .38 special. Oh, and what weight bullet does he use, 110 grain JHPs? Or did I miss something?

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
The weight of one's opinion is directly related to the amount of experience they have. So, again, I must ask: Have you ever used anything bigger on game than a .44 magnum? If not, this is all conjecture and wishful thinking.

Looks like I need to post this again......

deer have been taken successfully with a 22 so what's the point with the 38 deal?

quote:

Cottonstalk; I know that you guys go on websites and see all the big boys with thier fancy equipment and think...because you dont know,

Now you jumped on Hitman for assuming about you, yet you feel the need to do the same to me,(because you know nothing about me)are you a politician?(meaning it's okay for you but not for others?)

Sometimes it's just better to move on.Next topic,please.

quote:

Originally posted by cottonstalk:
deer have been taken successfully with a 22 so what's the point with the 38 deal?

quote:

Cottonstalk; I know that you guys go on websites and see all the big boys with thier fancy equipment and think...because you dont know,

Now you jumped on Hitman for assuming about you, yet you feel the need to do the same to me,(because you know nothing about me)are you a politician?(meaning it's okay for you but not for others?)

Sometimes it's just better to move on.Next topic,please.

I'll vouch for cottonstalk being no internet warrior -- we hunted bear, deer, and boar together last year.

Just more pointless drivel on the op's part. Now to see what else is posted.

quote:

Originally posted by cottonstalk:
deer have been taken successfully with a 22 so what's the point with the 38 deal?

quote:

Cottonstalk; I know that you guys go on websites and see all the big boys with thier fancy equipment and think...because you dont know,

Now you jumped on Hitman for assuming about you, yet you feel the need to do the same to me,(because you know nothing about me)are you a politician?(meaning it's okay for you but not for others?)

Sometimes it's just better to move on.Next topic,please.

It's that little gun syndrome

Sometimes known as caliber envy.....

Or delusions of mediocrity maybe?

quote:

Tradmark, do you realize that many, including John Linebaugh himself, advocate not loading the .475 beyond 1,200 fps -- you know, .480 Ruger level? I know your point was directed at me because I support the .480 as a caliber. You clearly like velocity, so it's not really a cartridge that appeals to you

1) i like velocity for certain loads and certain bullets, others i don't much care about excessive velocity.

2) i like john linebaugh and his writings and for the wonderful things he's done for handgun hunting and i also, if i read him right, realize he said he thought with big hardcasts 1200fps was plenty and more not needed for most chores. doesn't mean you don't gain something penetration and wound channel are not synonomous and the .480 results i speak of are simply what was published from the linebaugh seminars.

3) i also am a fan of scientific testing, and the linebaugh seminars are not. they can be misconstrued in many many ways, i'm basing my observations off of published results from them. there's so many holes and so many different ways to take the results it's silly. everyone has a "horse in the race" so to speak and so i just base my opinions on the handgun hunting i've done or witnessed. you've made many many assumptions of me based on my posts but you fail to realize that i feel that there's no ONE best tool for any job, many may be good all around but no ONE best for all jobs.

there's times i'm very comfortable with a fast small jacketed bullet and prefer it in west texas, then there's times that i like a big hardcast moving nice and slow so as to lower the chance of it busting apart. then there's times i like an all copper expandable moving out real fast. then there's those penetrator/punch bullet times.


on this forum there's a bias against and for many things. i don't think a .500 linebaugh is all that, it's a great round but i'm not overly impressed and never found it did anything my 454 or 475 didn't do. i've found that if the bullets hold up and you use the right ones the 460 and 500 smiths are devastating rounds, just don't like the size of the pistols. i've found that the velocity in those sure does help, even if not in newspaper. i see a difference on large game with my calibers based on increases in velocity. i also have NEVER seen a difference in terminal performance b/w a 45 colt and 44 mag. i also never saw a reason to demean the .44 like happens on here so much. those are my obs, and there's many that agree with them but to vocalize them here means to get shouted down loudly.

and don't go taking my comments to the extreme either. i did not say i didn't think the 500 linebaugh was a crappy round, nor did i ever say the .480 was a poor round either. they're quite fine.

How is consistent testing not scientific? Same day, same medium, same conditions. Are they the last word in testing? No, but a pretty good indicator as to how a bullet will perform in a tough medium against another bullet. The results are telling. We have performed similar tests and I don't see how "there's so many holes and so many different ways to take the results it's silly." Interpretation of test results is the difficult part for those who do not observe well or perhaps don't understand what they are looking at. The results of bullet performance on game are also dependent on the observation abilities of those present and are also open for interpretation. I believe often people see what they want to see. Now, perhaps if the penetration tests were performed in a sanitized, climate-controlled environment in some lab operating on government grants, the results would somehow be credible? I'm sure if one tries hard enough, they too could find holes in those test results.

I've got news for you, there's a bias on virtually every forum. This one has one great advantage over all others in that they are not taking advertising dollars from any bullet/ammo/firearm manufacturers, therefore are beholden to no one. I have also found that this site is occupied by some real handgun hunting experience that goes deeper than most. Hell, jwp had the very first .475 Linebaugh ever built by Hamilton Bowen.

The only .44 bashing going on here is a reaction and result of the bashing of the bigger calibers. I have hunted, loaded, and shot the .429 magnum for many years, and while I do have a soft spot in my heart for the caliber, it is in no way in the same league as some of the bigger calibers in regards to terminal performance -- period.

Dang, tradmark, is the shift key broken on your computer? Are you protesting capital letters?

Whitworth;
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Tradmark either likes e.e.cummings, or he is protesting against THE WAY JOHN TAFFIN ALWAYS POSTS.

quote:

Originally posted by 257x50:
Whitworth;
.
Tradmark either likes e.e.cummings, or he is protesting against THE WAY JOHN TAFFIN ALWAYS POSTS.

LOL! I just spit coffee all over my keyboard!

In order of importance...Whit, your bullets are in the mail, look for them on thursday or friday. Contact me by email with your results if you would. Also thank bfr for his assitance. Thanks!

All handgun bullets will kill game. If you prefer a .500 Loudenboomer so be it, but, that does not make all other handgun cartridges obsolete....remember "big bore guys"...you are in the minority (except on this forum). A bit after I came on here, I saw that there cannot be a rational discussion of any handgun cartridge here, because most (and a small number at that) are so skewed towards the larger bore handguns, that anything under 475 is considered minimal at best. It seems to me that your "cause" is to discredit anyone that doesnt think like you. You big bore folks remind me of the used car salesman whos boss has asked him to get rid of a big gas guzzling car that has been sitting on the lot for a long time. Customers come to the lot and look to buy small and mid sized fuel efficient cars that will take care of thier needs. The salesman pushes the big gas guzzler by saying: "You will get to work, or to the grocery store "better" by driving this big car, and just think what your neighbors will think when you pull up in the driveway with this big car...boy, will they be envious! The small and midsized cars will get the job done for the majority, but there is always someone who has to have the biggest and the best...not because he needs it....but just because he can have it. You guys can drive that big gas guzzler, and I will stick with my mid sized, and both of us will get to work or the grocery store, because both types of cars produce the same results. I think that some of you here work for the gun rags, because you are sure beginning to sound like them..."salesman"!

MS; If the 44 mag is so mediocre...why do you still own them?

"little gun syndrom....caliber envy".....not in the least guys...not in the least. Matter of fact, I am proud that I have the ability to cleanly take game with a "lesser" cartridge...just shows that my hunting and marksmanship skills are up to snuff. Next deer season I am going to carry my 44 Special, and leave the 44 mag at home...dont want to be "overbore" for easy to kill game such as deer.

MS; you are doing a fine job of setting the direction of this forum. Just keep insulting the forum members and you four or five will have this place all to youselves. Then you all can get on here and agree with yourselves about everything big bore...now that is what I call productive and exciting!!! But, remember not to hurt each other patting yourselves on the back!

Whit and Cottonstalk; I made no mention of Cottonstalk's hunting or shooting ability, but, his lack of understanding of gunsmithing. How many of you have built a custom handgun or rifle? How many of you do maintenance on your own firearms? Anyone that does so "knows" that 90% of all firearms work is "handwork", or "hand fitting". I have built custom firearms for most of my life... for hunting and competition purposes...many from scratch, so, dont tell me what you "know", because I guarantee you that I was doing this before some of you here were even born! My custom firearms have competed and hunted successfully all over the world, and I may not be the worlds greatest hunter (which some of you here think you are...as long as you have a big bore in your hands), or the worlds greatest shot (even though I had a pretty successful career as a competitive shooter), but, I will guarantee you that I can build custom precision firearms of unequaled quality. So, when it comes to this aspect dont try to feed me B.S. because I know better.

Cottonstalk; You make an excellent point about the 22lr! So, what is all this hoopla about big bores?!?!?! Seems to me that you are a good enough hunter and marksman not to have to count on anything larger than a 44 mag or 45 LC for anything in NA. As far as MS and my comments to him.....he is not a "moderator" on this forum. His title should be "instigator", or maybe "Supreme Ruler". He started on me with his wise a--, condescending statements, and I just answered in kind. You reap what you sow! One thing that I can agree with you 100% on....."its time to move on". This forum is nothing but a waste of time and effort. I will leave it to the four or five regulars who wont allow anyone to get a word in edgewise without demeaning everything, but thier precious big bores. This forum is nothing but a "mutual admiration society", and believe me, I do not fit in here!

257X50; Keep me posted (PM or email) on the Linebaugh seminar....If I am in town I would sure like to make it.

On Linebaugh: Truly a remarkable individual, and talented gunsmith and cartridge developer, who was not afraid to "think outside the box". He has proven by his research and experience that the "minimal" cartridges that you speak of are more than capable of getting the job done.

I originally came to this website (Accurate Reloading) a number of years ago because of my life long love affair with African hunting, cartridges, and rifles. I was asked to stop in here (Handgun Hunting)...I did...and what goes on here does not interest me. Most of you (of good humor) have probably noticed by now that my comments have been facetious, to say the least. The atmosphere of this forum does not deserve or promote "serious" discussion of the forum topic...it is meerly a format for the few to belittle anyone who does not accept thier point of view. This forum probably turns more of its readers off to the subject than it does to promote it. For those of you that just dont get out much, "handgun hunting" is accomplished with many different calibers both large and small, and a hunters success is to be judged by hunting skill and marksmanship...not the sixe of the bullet he sends down the tube. To all of you that shoot the "lesser" calibers, I wish you good luck, and good hunting!

In order of importance:

-I have found through your posting, flat top, that it is you that is irrational in discusion. .44 mag this, .44 mag that, you need nothing else, every type of game has been taken with a .44, blah, blah, blah. One can't get a word in edgewise with you. If the .44 is so great on the bigger game, then why have all those who started on the .44 moved up when given the opportunity??

-I can't speak for MS Hitman, but I think he keeps a .44 around as a training caliber. Got to start the kids off on something. Most younger folks start out on the smaller bores then move up.

-I have found that it is much harder to master the big guns than the smaller-bores. If you can shoot a .500 something or another well, you are quite accomplished as a shooter. Face the facts, it is easier to shoot a .22 well than a .458 Lott.

-Now we are stooping to the arguement of age. We've been through this here before and if someone does something wrong for 50 years, his/her experience is not greater than someone who has done something right for 20, or even for one. It's quality of experience that counts the most. That said, if one sticks to one caliber their entire shooting/hunting career, their experience is pretty limited as far as what different calibers are capable of. It's not very broad...... Unless you are in your 70s, I don't want to hear squat about age, none of us here are wet behind the ears.

-It requires skill to hunt with a handgun, period. The bigger and harder the kick, the harder it is to master.

Don't forget that it is you who cannot see past .429-inches.

Flat top, have you ever taken any realy big game animals? What have you ever taken larger than a deer?

Tennis anyone???

I have read this entire thread from beginning to end and here are my observations.

First, one poster created a straw man and then methodically tore it down.

Second, there doesn't seem to be a lot of bashing of the 44 Magnum. Rather, it seems more like good-natured ribbing between men who share a passion for handgun hunting.

Third, the unnamed and anonymous hunter who swears by the 38 Special should join in the fun and share his knowledge.

Landrum

Thank you Landrum for bringing objectivity and logic to this thread!

whitworth--keep in mind, many of my comments are not directed at you and i would like to keep this civil as i've always had good discussions with you and appreciate your input, there's others here i don't.

that said, it's not the same media, same day. each bundle of newspaper is different, diffent density, different packing etc. each time you shoot through it and change it it varies. i've done my own testing and even using the exact same bundles of the same paper, the same day will yield inconsistent results at best, being in a lab has nothing to do with it.

what are the different ways one can takethese tests.

1) in the original 3 years of published loads there was the greatest penetrating load of all, one load, shot once which was a .475L load, which was an outlyer an obviously aberant, when shot through the paper and bone it performed miserably. you could take those published results and follow 475 and 500 loads that were gradually penetrating more and more the faster the bullets went. same with the .45 colt, and on those original loads there were so few .44 mag loads and no keith style .475 loads tested but somehow a comparison of poor penetration b/w the two. a crappy bullet imho versus a great bullet. not valid.


i've ran punch bullets through my own paper that one day ran 60" and the next ran 48 or so. both with 454 and 475. if the media is not consistent it's just not valid. sorry. my observational skills in the field are fine. just because they don't completely fit in the box you and a few here subscribe to doesn't mean that the person is to be ridiculed, discredited and the like.

i just recently hunted with a very experienced handgun hunter that's hunted all over the world. recently had a friend take an elephant with a handgun and he just laughs at this stuff. he very clearly said anyone thinks they see a diff b/w a .45 colt and .44 mag is delusional and he interchanges b/w 454 and 475 and then 500's depending on his mood and he laughs at this. they all kill and kill well. well, my obs agree more with his. he certainly has no lack of experience either.

Don't have the time right now to go point for point, but the increase in velocity most definitely doesn't result in deeper penetration at the Linebaugh Seminars or in the case of other pentration testing -- particularly not when using hardcast bullets.

For example. My .50 Alaskan revolver was tested three or so years ago at a Linebaugh Seminar with 525 grain bullets running 1,575 fps (chronograph verified). The WLN was able to penetrate a full 50-inches of media (same paper, same day, same bundle, same consistency). The excat same bullet -- same weight, manufacturer, hardness, etc. running a scorching 1,100 fps out of a .500 Linebaugh penetrated a full -- you guessed it -- 50-inches. Velocity doesn't mean penetration. If that were the case, the Casulls would clean house, and they never really fare well at the seminars.

The media is pretty darn consistent. John L. makes sure of it so the results are consistent. The paper is soaked the same amount, etc. When I do back to back testing, the media is the same. I don't shoot through the damaged portion of the paper, and they don't at the Seminars either.

I disagree with the premise that one is delusional if they see the difference between a .45 Colt and a .44 mag. I guess that would make Ross Seyfried delusional, but when I last spoke with him he was clear about the .45 Colt being higher on the food chain than the .44 mag.

Tradmark, are you ready to trade that .454 in on a .44 mag? Didn't think so.

I was lucky enough to buy a new Anaconda in 45 Long Colt, with a four inch barrel when they loaned a few out to writers for product review.

It does everything I could want in a revolver. I got a Wildey in 45WM with a six inch barrel setting next to it in the shop.

Rich

flat top, I don't believe you're gone for long.

I'm glad this didn't break down to the ".22 Long Rifle vs. .35 S&W Long; which is the better deer killer?" discussion. I know the answer though.

Was talking to Linebaugh last night and he got a kick out of the boiling the pet grizzly bear on the stove remark. He's got a good sense of humor.