There are some interesting facts concerning the physics of mass, weight, and momentum. Here is some food for thought: If there are two objects (lets call them solid and cylindrical) of equal weight, moving at an identical velocity and encountering a like substance, lets say clay... we would all agree that those two objects would impact the clay in the same way. Both would leave the same ident or pattern in size and depth in the clay. If we change one of the "constants" in this equation the results will be different. Lets say that we slow one of these objects down to half speed of the other object...then, the ident or pattern of the slower objects impact in the clay would change, and be less in depth...correct?....of course. Now, lets reduce the weight of one object...again, the ident or pattern in the clay would change, it would be less in depth, correct?...of course. We all agree? Good.

Again we have the two objects of equal weight and equal speed moving towards the clay, but, this time we reduce the diameter of one object. Now what happens....the object of lesser diameter will impact the target in a different way...we all agree?....good! The object of smaller diameter, but, moving at the same speed and being of the same weight as the unchanged object will have a different ident or pattern of imapct in the clay. The impact of the lesser diameter object will be deeper...........here is why: Each of these objects is made up of weight and mass but, when we reduce the diameter of one cylinder or object, we make it longer and change the way it applies that weight and mass moving at the same velocity as its unchanged counterpart. The weight and mass of the smaller diameter object, because of its longer length, allows that objects momentum to be applied for a longer duration and therefore that objects ident or pattern is deeper than the unchanged object.

"All things being equal...weight, mass,and, speed, the smaller diameter object will always penetrate deeper.............and that my friends is why the 44 magnum excells over all larger big bores!!!!!

Think about it!!!!!

Flattop;
The basic idea is good to a point.
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Let's do an end point analysis.
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A .020 diameter bullet. Too long.
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A 2.000 diameter bullet. Flying pie plate.
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Okay let's narrow it down some: to the diameter and bullet length that will fit in a Colt. Elmer like.
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44 fits nicely. Maybe a 41 would work better.
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Now go to Ruger size. The caliber can get bigger, and this is important, HEAVIER.
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Not saying the 44 isn't, but other calibers may be better.
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To your thought, why not the 41, or 42 or 375................
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You also have to contain the energy to move this heavy bullet.
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You have two walls to the chamber. And for each chamber pattern there is a "best" caliber.
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The variables for a cylinder are:
5 or 6 shot
OD of cylinder
Length of cylinder
Diameter of chamber pattern.(This could change, but I'm one of the few silly enough to change it)
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Food for thought.......
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With the smaller, heavier farther idea is OKAY, EXCEPT.
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Larger caliber is more room for more weight and powder.
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Food for thought..........what is the sweet spot for each cylinder??????

flat top

Are you saying that your 405 grain 44 Magnum loads are equal in velocity to full strength 400 grain 475 Linebaugh loads?

Landrum

Ya, it's called 'sectional density'.

It's been around for awhile now.

flattop, you're right in many respects but you can't overcome the "magic" calibers that break time and space and are magic penetrators fly flatter and hit harder than a .460 weatherby. well, what i want to know is how far out of the vitals i can shoot a buffalo with a 400 grain 475 load and kill it versus a 50 cal, and how much further that allows me to miss the vitals than if i use a .44 mag bullet of the same weight.

quote:

Originally posted by flat top:
There are some interesting facts concerning the physics of mass, weight, and momentum. Here is some food for thought: If there are two objects (lets call them solid and cylindrical) of equal weight, moving at an identical velocity and encountering a like substance, lets say clay... we would all agree that those two objects would impact the clay in the same way. Both would leave the same ident or pattern in size and depth in the clay. If we change one of the "constants" in this equation the results will be different. Lets say that we slow one of these objects down to half speed of the other object...then, the ident or pattern of the slower objects impact in the clay would change, and be less in depth...correct?....of course. Now, lets reduce the weight of one object...again, the ident or pattern in the clay would change, it would be less in depth, correct?...of course. We all agree? Good.

Again we have the two objects of equal weight and equal speed moving towards the clay, but, this time we reduce the diameter of one object. Now what happens....the object of lesser diameter will impact the target in a different way...we all agree?....good! The object of smaller diameter, but, moving at the same speed and being of the same weight as the unchanged object will have a different ident or pattern of imapct in the clay. The impact of the lesser diameter object will be deeper...........here is why: Each of these objects is made up of weight and mass but, when we reduce the diameter of one cylinder or object, we make it longer and change the way it applies that weight and mass moving at the same velocity as its unchanged counterpart. The weight and mass of the smaller diameter object, because of its longer length, allows that objects momentum to be applied for a longer duration and therefore that objects ident or pattern is deeper than the unchanged object.

"All things being equal...weight, mass,and, speed, the smaller diameter object will always penetrate deeper.............and that my friends is why the 44 magnum excells over all larger big bores!!!!!

Think about it!!!!!

Why do you leave all other variables out of the disscussion?
Such as, but not limited to;

1- Longer bullets are more difficult to remain stable after impact and yaw and or tumble this inhibating penetration in test media and animal tissue
2- Facts is in penetration tests even heavier, smaller diaamter projectiles with higher SD do not always penetrate deeper even when the velocities are higher
3 44's have not fared that well at the Linebaugh seminars. You are relying heavily on teory and ignoring acctual results

Tradmark;

Just like someone from Texas............
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Skip the bull$hit and get to the point!
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My ex father in law was from Levelland, agreat guy. We still get along. He was the same way, always respected him.........
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Anyway.........
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My rambling post boils down to;
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1.Balance or "sweet spot" for the variables we can control.
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.That's it..........
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No magic.........
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Maybe things we don't understand yet or choise to ignore........but no magic.

Nothing else to say for now

What's next flat top? Breaking into John Linebaugh's house and boiling his pet grizzly bear on the stove? This post is ridiculous.

You like .44s; that's fine. Leave it at that and stop with all the foolishness.

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
Ya, it's called 'sectional density'.

It's been around for awhile now.

Dennis, I wouldn't put a whole lot of credence in SD. Go back through Michael458's 500 page tome (I dare you to reread the whole thing! ) in the Big Bore forum. Nose profile was and still is the most important determinent.......

Now, do we have to get into this again?????

Whitworth;
Its like a carton of milk with a WAY past due date...........you know its bad but you check anyway!!!!!!!!!!!
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Or in one of "The Godfather" movies:
"I try to get out but they just DRAG me back in!!!!!!"
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All kidding asside, is the 44 the best caliber for a Colt SAA from the 50s?
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The right balance of weight per pressure available??????
Maybe that Whats-his-name Keith was on to something.....

Yes, Elmer Keith liked the 44 Special and referred to it as "the king of all handgun cartridges". However, he had this to say about the .45 Colt, "As one grows older and his hair starts to turn grey, his respect for this grand old load increases. If I had to shoot only one factory ammunition the rest of my life, I would take the .45 Colt as my game and defense cartridge."

257, define "best" please. That's a wide open question.

MS hitman;
Thanks for the Elmer quote.
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I am not drawing any final words on this subject. As metals, powder, weight and shape of bullets change, along with our understanding of them, the best as we see it will change.
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The BEST.............touche`........ya got me.
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The best for the person for the job.
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A 22 Hornet in a pre 64 M70 is not best for me. WAY too much steel around that brass.
475L in a 6 shot SRH, just not enough steel.
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Like Goldilocks, I'm looking for JUST RIGHT.
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For the BEST(????) Hunting round in a revolver, it is what fills the cylinder with the best (MS you got me HATING that word!!!!!) balance for thew job.
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I don't want a barrel too long/short, gun too heavy/light, but to be most efficent in the ranges I can shoot well.
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quote:

Originally posted by 257x50:
475L in a 6 shot SRH, just not enough steel

Plenty of steel -- only 2,000 psi separates a .480 from a .475 Linebaugh......

Food for thought?Maybe cause for a migrane is more like it. Once you punch a hole through your intended quarry what does all that extra do?So you can penetrate a train car,then what?Once you exit any critter large or small the rest is like politicians,useless.

Shot placement,two holes(entrance and exit),and let's eat!The rest is IMO!

Whitworth;
454 is at 65,000, store bought to 55,000.
I don't know what 480 R is loaded to, store bought wise
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The 475 John built for me has shot loads we loaded that would get a little "stickey" if shot in the 6 shot 475. I would think.
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Are they at 50,000? Maybe not.:-)
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But I don't like to load different loads for different guns unless length precludes chambering.
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What are factory loads for 480 R and 475 Linebaugh loaded to?
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I never felt good with the 2,000 difference.
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I'll make a call.......
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Whistle while you wait......

48K for the .480 Ruger and 50K for the .475.....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MS Hitman:
What's next flat top? Breaking into John Linebaugh's house and boiling his pet grizzly bear on the stove? This post is ridiculous.

Thats some funny S**t!

Whitworth;
Would you shoot your top 475 loads from your 5 shot in a rechambered 480 6 shot?
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If factory loading for the 480 is 48,000. Hornaday ~350 gr at ~1300.
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How does Buffalo Bore load heavier AND faster?
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Or is Buffalo Bore concidered factory? No sweat.
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FWIW a 440gr at 1200 with a 6 inch barrel ran 26,700PSI in a pressure barrel. Not on subject, but interesting.....

In my last post:
The 440 gr at 1200 was in a 500 Linebaugh.
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A 475 in a 6 shot Blackhawk, 400 gr at 1200 is max. Longer, larger OD cylinder.
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In Alaska I remember reading an article about defense guns for bear.

They rated all normal calibers (normal as 30-06 cased or 308 win cased compared to belted mags).above the magnums because they penetrated deeper. The penetration tests were done on a clay mud bank. No monometal bullets were used.

#1 458 win mag 500 grain bullets
#2 375 H-H 300 grain bullets
#3 338 win mag 250 grain bullets
#4 30-06 220 grain bullets.

They recomended a SD of .280 or higher.

Anyways as this all pertains to this thread they rated the 44 mag "as slightly better than a balled up fist".

Now we all know this is far from scientific as especially now it all depends on the bullet you are using.

But its good for a laugh.

Back 3 posts I gave bullet weight and speed but no caliber.
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2 posts back I gave the caliber.
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Now I looked it up at home:
500 Linebaugh
450 gr bullet
1280 fps
7 1/2 barrel
26,700 psi.
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This is the reason I don't reload from memory.
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Haven't done anything with the 500 for a while......cheap excuse.
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Mongo sorry..........I'll look up before I post from now on, instead of checking after...............

People!!! (and disbelievers in Physics "facts")....read my words!!!! "All things being equal"!
Two calibers: 44 mag and 475. If we would shoot a bullet at the same velocity out of each caliber, and each bullet weighed the same...had the same shape, meplat, etc....."all things being equal" the bullet of lesser diameter would penetrate further in the same media. If you add "variables" then everything would change, giving one, or the other caliber an advantage.

This is where one caliber can have an "advantage" over another, by enlarging meplat/changing bullet shape or weight, or producing higher velocities, etc.

......but, "all things being equal".......

....the 44 mag RULES!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by flat top:
People!!! (and disbelievers in Physics "facts")....read my words!!!! "All things being equal"!
Two calibers: 44 mag and 475. If we would shoot a bullet at the same velocity out of each caliber, and each bullet weighed the same...had the same shape, meplat, etc....."all things being equal" the bullet of lesser diameter would penetrate further in the same media. If you add "variables" then everything would change, giving one, or the other caliber an advantage.

This is where one caliber can have an "advantage" over another, by enlarging meplat/changing bullet shape or weight, or producing higher velocities, etc.

......but, "all things being equal".......

....the 44 mag RULES!!!!!

This is getting old fast..

I have shot just about every handgun round out there. I have come to the conclusion that the 45 Colt, 475 Linebaugh and my 500 Mag is all I will ever need for my "big game" hunting needs.. .

The 41 mag would rule all thngs being equal.

They are not equal though. I dont expect to stick a 450 grain bullet in my 41 mag nor would I shoot 300's in a 475 or 500.

flat top.

You should really seek some professional help. Or at least cease sitting in the dark listening to the Wiggles.

Flattop;
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Okay with all things being equal..........
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Still end point analysis......and there are other things to consider.
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A 40 gr 22 bullet at 1800, a 40 gr 44 bullet at 1800.......
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Deeper yeah but.................
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You are using certain variables to favor the 44.
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What about the larger case capacity you don't want to use.

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It is like being fair in war. Fair hell, every advantage you can use!!!

Crickets chirpping..................
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Is it someything I said?????????
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It usually is.........................
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Elmer Keith's hat keeps some people from finding moose!!!!!!!
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That is a fact!!!!!!

quote:

Posted 09 January 2011 18:12 Hide Post
People!!! (and disbelievers in Physics "facts")....read my words!!!! "All things being equal"!
Two calibers: 44 mag and 475. If we would shoot a bullet at the same velocity out of each caliber, and each bullet weighed the same...had the same shape, meplat, etc....."all things being equal" the bullet of lesser diameter would penetrate further in the same media. If you add "variables" then everything would change, giving one, or the other caliber an advantage.

This is where one caliber can have an "advantage" over another, by enlarging meplat/changing bullet shape or weight, or producing higher velocities, etc.

......but, "all things being equal"....... dancing

AHHH, you just forget that it is NOT equal. Keep velocity the same and increase the diameter and weight, the larger does kill better and faster.
The .44 does well with 300 to 330 gr but the .45 cant go as fast so the .454 will do better. You need to equal the velocities. Then the .475 and .500 will do better yet.
If all are shot at the same velocities with added weights for the caliber, the larger will always do better.
I have been saying that the .44 with a 320 gr boolit, A .475 with a 420 gr boolit. A .500 with a 440 gr boolit will all kill like crazy with the same velocity but the larger calibers kill much better and faster.
After many, many deer shot with the .44 and also many shot with the .475 at the same velocity, I can tell you the .475 beats the hell out of the .44.
Dead is dead but I will tell you that distance to dead is very important.

bfr (and everybody else). My point was (again) "all things being equal"....I realize that all things are not equal, and I offered this up as only something to think about. But, instead of "thinking" most of you go off on your usual tangents about bigger is better,,,faster is better, better is better, etc............by the way, if "any" bullet will put two holes in the right place, through what you are trying to kill, nine chances out of ten its going to die....how simple can that be to understand? Caliber is really unimportant as most of you fail to realize...its where the bullet goes "through" that makes the difference. If your shot is a foot off target, there is no caliber that is going to make up for that error....except the 44 mag of course!

MS; Im beginning to understand that you are truly a man for all seasons! Not only are you the Supreme Ruler of this forum....a talented ballistics engineer.....and, a crack shot, but, a psychiatric psychoanalist as well! You sir are very talented...but, if I may say (because evidently you have taken me on as a patient)your bedside manner sucks! I am sure that if you knew me personally you would have a different opinion of me...you would probably say to youself: " that Flat Top is one heck of a guy . He spends much of his time and money helping those in need...is a kind and loving husband and father, who works hard to give his family everything they could possible want.... is involved in the church and in the community...and, is an absolutely talented gunsmith, wildcater, reloader, and shooter"..........Ah, but you dont know me...which leads me to this question: Do you always pass judgement on folks you dont know?

Flattop;
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I wasn't on a tangent.........I was WAY off kilter, few if any agree.
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Really the only premise I had was only using facts that favored the 44.
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Maybe I missed something.
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But all things aren't equal.
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You have to look at all the variables, with proper weight given to each.
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They only ignored 1 thing on the Challenger.......
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Back to "Food for Thought"
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You set a premise, let's just tighten it up a little. What gun, barrel length.
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I don't know.
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A LOT is lost without discussion.
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I'm going to John Linebaugh's seminar in June to discuss, it is SO much better that talking on the phone.
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When I design something cross country, I send the guy the same McMaster-Carr catalog I am using.
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Then we have the same facts.
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Back to OP.......

257X50; I you are "way off kilter" I know a real good shrink that can help you out...same one I use...MS Hitman.

Hey bud, dont worry about it, there aint nothin' to it! I just offered this thread up as something for folks to think about....the innuendo's about the 44 mag that I just "had" to add at the end of my posts, were added for "impact"!

Dont tell anybody, but, I would be the first to agree that the larger bore handguns DO make a difference...but, in my world the difference is so negligable, that it would not be worth it for me to change over to them. Not cost effective, or "needed".............because I have a 44 mag!!!!

Flat top;
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I promise to tell NO ONE, EVER!!!!!!!!
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It is hard to sort things on the internet.
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If there could be a split screne;
Theory/Fact.
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Not saying some things don't happen, I've seen enough stuff to give people a chance.....
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But as far as any one has proven, the Elmer hat theory has not been disproven!!!!!!
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See flattop, no one beleives the truth as proven............

flat top,

I don't pass judgment, I'm merely here to help the forum move along.

Dang, this is an odd discussion. I haven't been hunting with a handgun as long as some here, but I have hunted with one more than most. I hunt roughly every month of the year out of necessity -- for testing purposes. I can tell you that I load every firearm to increase my advantage. That said, I have never been impressed with the way the .44 mag kills -- relative to some of the bigger calibers i regularly hunt with. I consider myself relatively observant, and the .429 will definietly get it done. It won't do what the .475 will do -- period. It's just a bigger, and more effective hammer. If one doesn't believe it, the best cure is to take one out to the field, and draw blood.

That makes too much common sense Whitworth; it'll never fly.

X 2

257X50; Thanks! Now no one will know!!!

MS; "moving along"?.....in what direction?

Whit; First you admit that the 44 mag will "definately get it done"...then you state that "it wont do what the 475 will do"....Some of you here say that you dont like the way that the 44 mag kills (although it does just that)...is there a "good" way to kill or a "another" way to kill? Are there "levels" of dead? C'mon folks...get real!!!!

One thing that the 44 mag "can" do is offer the handgun hunter a wider range of versatility than any other handgun cartridge. From squib loads to knucklebusters the useful velocity range of the 44 mag exceeds all other handguns. There are 77 powders that are suitable for use in the 44 mag...that is more than any other cartridge!!! Bullet weights: 180, 185, 190, 200, 210, 240, 250, 265, 290, 300, 325, 330, 350, 355, 405, 425, and everything in between, are all offered in molds, or commercially made, and many of those are also offered as jacketed bullets in varying types and designs. Also, the Belt Mountain Punch bullet...the "extreme" penetrator is offered for the 44 mag in two weights....and, you can walk into just about any gunshop, sporting goods store, Walmart, or 5&10 and buy a box of 44 mag ammo, if you are in a pinch. The 44 mag allows versatility that no other handgun cartridge can offer, and throw in shotshells for vermin control and you have a handgun cartridge that can kill anything from field mice to elephant, is suitable for every competitive handgun sporting format, except NMCP small bore, and offers the shooter the "perfect" all round handgun cartridge. Lets face it...ol' Elmer had it right all along, and while "other" cartridges may perform one or two tasks "better" (as you say), there is no handgun cartridge that can perform "every" task that could be asked of it....except the 44 mag!!! From small game to the largest of game it is "the handgun supreme"! If you had to own only one handgun, the 44 mag would be the handgun to own...hands down! For those of you 44 mag owners reading this: dont ever feel that you are "undergunned" because regardless of what the all the "pros" on this forum tell you, the 44 mag is the perfect handgun cartridge for any and every pursuit you you would expect of it....there is no "better" handgun cartridge out there!!!

MS; You are confusing "common sense" with "infatuation" (for the bigger bores).