Well, I had a chance to test the advice I was given that cast bullets perform their best at 1000-1200 fps.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...8321043/m/6581039231

Both of these were shot with my Ruger Bisley in .45 Colt using 300 WLN cast bullets from Beartooth over 24 grains of H110. In my gun, that load gets about 1150 fps.

The first bear I shot was the chocolate. She was in the tree maybe 15 yards from me. The first shot hit her square in between her front legs and exited right beside her spine. The second shot hit her through the shoulders, the third and forth entered the chest, one exiting through the gut, the other I don't remember.

She was dead when she hit the ground. Looking at the entrance and exit wounds, they were all the same size - the size of the metplat. Internally, the damage didn't seem to be that significant. The only thing I recovered was a gas check stuck in one of the exit wounds.

The second bear I shot high in the shoulders and through the spine at 35 yards on the first shot. As he rolled down the ridge towards me, he got up on his front legs and was pretty upset with me. I ran around the side and got two more into his chest behind the shoulder, then put one in the front of his chest as he came towards me again. That one knocked him down and he rolled over, so I put one in between his front legs from about six feet away. I backed up, he got up one more time, I hit him again through the chest and realized that I was out of bullets. As I reloaded, he finally died.

The last five shots were put in at very close range, inside of 15 feet. The whole debacle probably took 2-3 minutes.

When we skinned him out he had a lot of holes in him, but once again, they were all the same diameter as the metplat going in and coming out.

Both bears died, and died within a couple of minutes. I also used 10 shots to make that happen. Penetration was definitely not an issue, but the size of the wound channel and the effect of the bullets hitting gives me some concern. To be honest, I really think that a heavy soft point, like a 300 grain XTP, pushed as fast as possible would have ended things a lot sooner. Am I not looking at this right, being used to seeing animals shot with rifles, or is this how cast bullet perform for everyone?

Pete

You have indeed found that hard cast bullets from a handgun do kill, the problem though can be...how fast? I long ago found that a lighter weight GC'd cast bullet cast of softer alloy that will expand in the animal kills quicker. This applies to handguns as well as rifles with cast bullets. Some years back when I had a .45 Colt Ruger I found that Lyman's 452490 cast soft and HP'd to a depth of 2/3 the nose length with a 1/8" Forster tool at 1350 fps killed deer, elk and B bears a lot quicker than any hard cast bullet.

I don't use the .45 Colt in handguns to hunt with anymore as I've found the .41 and .44 magnums to fill my needs. I use an alloy of 50/50 WW/pb in those with GC'dHPs. Penetration is always complete and never a problem. I do use the .45 Colt in a M92 Rossi rifle to hunt with and that same 452490 cast of WW/pb at 1590 fps is a very good quick killing deer bullet, especially when HP'd as mentioned.

Larry Gibson

keep in mind that when using jacketed you may have a more dramatic wound channel but with cast the longer wound channel will usually make up for it. Also there proof out there that dramatic wounds tend to not bleed as much as a less dramatic wound. The body sends a message to a badly blown up area to shut down blood flow there. Ever notice how much better blood trail you get when you shoot an arrow threw an dears lungs then you do with a rifle

Congrats on the bears!

I think of lead bullets in a handgun, as similar to roundball shooting with BP. If you go for penetration, you have to use bigger dia bullets to get more killing power. If you go for expansion of the RB you have to use softer lead and give up on some penetration.

Match your bullet harness and speed to your intended target. You might be better off using a clasic Keith SWC gas checked at higher velocity for your current application.

Or stay with the 300gr but go with a cast lead hollowpoint.

I was always of the opinion that lead bullets at the speed you mention was more of a general purpose loading, that would do most things ok without straining the weapon.

Take care and good luck

quote:

Originally posted by talentrec:


The second bear I shot high in the shoulders and through the spine at 35 yards on the first shot. As he rolled down the ridge towards me, he got up on his front legs and was pretty upset with me. I ran around the side and got two more into his chest behind the shoulder, then put one in the front of his chest as he came towards me again. That one knocked him down and he rolled over, so I put one in between his front legs from about six feet away. I backed up, he got up one more time, I hit him again through the chest and realized that I was out of bullets. As I reloaded, he finally died.

I would have thought a spine shot would have anchored the bear right on the spot? Your bear. Any bear. Hell, any mammal for that matter. I guess I need a refresher course on the central nervous system of the genus Ursus.

Sorry for going off topic.

quote:

Originally posted by Hamourkiller:
You might be better off using a clasic Keith SWC gas checked at higher velocity for your current application.

How would the bullet with the smaller meplat offer an advantage over what he used?

talentrec, congratulations!!

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted by talentrec:


The second bear I shot high in the shoulders and through the spine at 35 yards on the first shot. As he rolled down the ridge towards me, he got up on his front legs and was pretty upset with me. I ran around the side and got two more into his chest behind the shoulder, then put one in the front of his chest as he came towards me again. That one knocked him down and he rolled over, so I put one in between his front legs from about six feet away. I backed up, he got up one more time, I hit him again through the chest and realized that I was out of bullets. As I reloaded, he finally died.

I would have thought a spine shot would have anchored the bear right on the spot? Your bear. Any bear. Hell, any mammal for that matter. I guess I need a refresher course on the central nervous system of the genus Ursus.

Sorry for going off topic.

Of course if the spine was hit the Bear's legs would have been paralized from impack area back, in others words the back legs would have been in operative.
The is no necropscy report of the vitail organs that the bullet passed through, sonor any description of the amount of damage to the organs, only a description of the entrance and exit, which are located in the hide.

Ronnie shot a doe through the shoulders at about 70 to 80 yards with a 270 with the 130 grain Nosler Partition, I could barely discern any difference in size of the exit VS the entrance hole. We we loaded the deer in the truck "lung chucks" fell out of her mouth. Upon gutting the deer we found massive damage to the vitail organs.


I have taken a lot of game over decades with 1 shot useing cast bullets. I have also taken quite a few animals with jacketed bullets and given the same shot placement and vitail organs hit have never seen the supiriority of jacketed bullets that many claim.


CONGRADULATIONS on taking of 2 Bears

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted by talentrec:


The second bear I shot high in the shoulders and through the spine at 35 yards on the first shot. As he rolled down the ridge towards me, he got up on his front legs and was pretty upset with me. I ran around the side and got two more into his chest behind the shoulder, then put one in the front of his chest as he came towards me again. That one knocked him down and he rolled over, so I put one in between his front legs from about six feet away. I backed up, he got up one more time, I hit him again through the chest and realized that I was out of bullets. As I reloaded, he finally died.

I would have thought a spine shot would have anchored the bear right on the spot? Your bear. Any bear. Hell, any mammal for that matter. I guess I need a refresher course on the central nervous system of the genus Ursus.

Sorry for going off topic.

His back legs were completely paralyzed, but he still had use of his front legs. The break in his spine must have been right behind the nerves controlling them.

Given equall shot placement IME I have not seen the difference in killing between jackted and a proper hard cast....

quote:
Originally posted by Hamourkiller:
You might be better off using a clasic Keith SWC gas checked at higher velocity for your current application.



How would the bullet with the smaller meplat offer an advantage over what he used?

talentrec, congratulations!!



"BBB is actually a nutcase and is hardly typical of Canadians just as "Teddy" is not my idea of a real American."

"Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP

If you increase velocity and adjust your lead mix so you get expansion and adequate penetration you have increased the possibility of rapid incapacitation of the animal. I also pointed out he could go with a heavy hollow point. A shallow V shaped HP in the flatnose should be good. The goal is to get some expansion with adequate penetration.
The OP seems unhappy with simple hard bullet results, soften the lead up some what , get expansion plus penetration. He should get better results.

Good luck in your hunting and shooting.

This Bear was over 400 pounds and 1 shot through the shoulder with a hard cast and No Drama.

This Bear was taken by a friend

quote:

Originally posted by Hamourkiller:
quote:
Originally posted by Hamourkiller:
You might be better off using a clasic Keith SWC gas checked at higher velocity for your current application.



How would the bullet with the smaller meplat offer an advantage over what he used?

talentrec, congratulations!!



"BBB is actually a nutcase and is hardly typical of Canadians just as "Teddy" is not my idea of a real American."

"Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP

If you increase velocity and adjust your lead mix so you get expansion and adequate penetration you have increased the possibility of rapid incapacitation of the animal. I also pointed out he could go with a heavy hollow point. A shallow V shaped HP in the flatnose should be good. The goal is to get some expansion with adequate penetration.
The OP seems unhappy with simple hard bullet results, soften the lead up some what , get expansion plus penetration. He should get better results.

Good luck in your hunting and shooting.

Then he should use an actual expanding bullet and not a semi wadcutter made of soft lead. I have taken lots of game with flat-nosed hardcast and have not experienced slow death over expanding bullets. It's still all about placement and actually reaching the vitals. That a bullet broke through the spine and exited tells me the bullet did an admirable job. JMHO.

This Zebra was taken with a 210 grain TSX fired from a 338 Federal at about 100 yards. impact velocity of about 2300 FPS plus or minus


Judging from the hole in the hide not much damage






But the heart tells a different story




Yep the Zebra ran about 100 yards before falling.. Would more damage to the heart have stopped him from runing. Not IMHO, becuase the Heart was already destroyed.

quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:

quote:

This Bear was over 400 pounds and 1 shot through the shoulder with a hard cast and No Drama.

This Bear was taken by a friend

Nice bear!

quote:

That a bullet broke through the spine and exited tells me the bullet did an admirable job. JMHO.

That's the fundamental difference in our opinions that I am desperately trying to understand. When a bullet kills quickly it does an admirable job IMHO.

Animal vary vastly from one to another in how quickly they die from the same damage and ammo. How fast an amimal dies or slow does not nesecarirly mean that the bullets did not do an admerable job.

quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:
That's the fundamental difference in our opinions that I am desperately trying to understand. When a bullet kills quickly it does an admirable job IMHO.

Yes it does, but reliability is very important to me, and expanding bullets are hit and miss. When they work well, they seem to work exceedingly well. When they don't......

Another issue no one seems to be addressing is that all animals are not created equal. Some give up the ghost quickly, others refuse to conceed defeat until they really do not have the means to go one.

quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:

quote:

This Bear was over 400 pounds and 1 shot through the shoulder with a hard cast and No Drama.

This Bear was taken by a friend

Nice bear!

quote:

That a bullet broke through the spine and exited tells me the bullet did an admirable job. JMHO.

That's the fundamental difference in our opinions that I am desperately trying to understand. When a bullet kills quickly it does an admirable job IMHO.

I guess that means that the bullet used on the Zebra did a poor job, because he ran about 100 yards, right? Despite the damage done to the heart.

The zebra ran about 50 yards into a depression was out oif sight for a bit and then ran back to nearly same place as he was shot stood there a bit and then fell over... Didn't time it but, I look at the detruction of the vitails more than any other detail as to how my bullets are working. Learned a long time ago that every animal dies at a different rate. I have seen them drop faster with less impressive wounds. Doesn't mean that this bullet did a lesser job

And not enough penetration to reach the vitals is worse......

quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:

quote:

I look at the detruction of the vitails more than any other detail as to how my bullets are working.

We are in total agreement. Penetration is only one aspect of killing. Complete penetration with little vital disruption is not good.

A bullet penetrating through the vitails, does little destruction?? Never seen it as little of course I am refering to big bore revolvers

This Bear went down at the shot and sprung straight up as if he were spring loaded and was moving so fast (despite a killing shot) that I had trouble keeping him in the scope as I fired 4 more rounds. The caliber was 338 shooting at 250 Partition at a chronographed 2800 FPS.
I guess the bullet did less than an admirable job

quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:

quote:

A bullet penetrating through the vitails, does little destruction??

Read the first passage in this thread and you can hear a first-hand account. He states:

quote:

Both of these were shot with my Ruger Bisley in .45 Colt using 300 WLN cast bullets from Beartooth over 24 grains of H110. In my gun, that load gets about 1150 fps.
The first bear I shot was the chocolate. She was in the tree maybe 15 yards from me. The first shot hit her square in between her front legs and exited right beside her spine. The second shot hit her through the shoulders, the third and forth entered the chest, one exiting through the gut, the other I don't remember.

She was dead when she hit the ground. Looking at the entrance and exit wounds, they were all the same size - the size of the metplat. Internally, the damage didn't seem to be that significant.

Of course I read that, but exactly what does it mean?? Not so signifcant as compared to what? How small or large was the wound cannel not the exit in the hide?

Not closed where I hunt! No season in North Carolina. You can choose the forum!

Has turkey season ended in Georgia?? So when is the next hunting season?

I'll just leave all this,this way.....I am glad the bear in my area doesn't know that hc bullets don't do significant damage,because if they did they might get up out of my gravy and walk off.

Now I have seen lots of bear killed,I have taken several myself,as I use to be a houndsman,still am deep inside.The bears I have encountered have been from 150-650+ and all have taken different amounts of bullet abuse to die,but IME a well placed hc shot by someone keeping a cool head will end the hunt quickly.

I have read this post a few several times and read the account of the hunt multiple times.I am still curious about a few shots and I can't figure out where the bullets were placed.I have shot several bears in trees and a dead center of the front two legs leads to a busted spine.Shots through the shoulders doesn't always mean vitals are hit,and a bear coming at me from 15yards gets a bullet just above his skull in that bulge.I wonder if in all the excitement maybe some of the shots weren't exactly kill shots.


And X caliber having not been shot myself I can't say but a half inch hole through the the vitals of anything living and breathing is not what I call little vital disruption.

quote:

Originally posted by cottonstalk:
a half inch hole through the the vitals of anything living and breathing is not what I call little vital disruption.

1/2" hole through the vitails will lead to rapid incapacitation IME


A poster on another board started a thread about why he did not like a certain rifle bullet. He shot a deer and the deer ran a long way and his claim was that the bullet did not go enough damage. To prove his point the entrance and exit holes were shown. From there he drew his conclusion. As the calls for a picture of the heart and lungs, he finaly posted this picture






As can be sen the heart and lungs were missed even though the bullet entered behind the shoulder. The angled through the body and exited behind the rib cage (if memory serves), none the less the heart and lungs were missed

Wow, I didn't mean to get the pot this stirred up!

JWP - I looked at the permanent wound channels after the hide was off. They weren't much bigger than the metplat; I couldn't fit my pinkie into them if that gives you an indication of size.

Cottonstalk - The second bear was never in a tree. And when he was coming towards me, I wouldn't really call it a charge as his back legs were paralyzed. He didn't have is head down; it was actually mostly back. He was snapping his teeth and making an awful racket.

I often use a Ruger .44 Mag carbine with 240 grain JSP's or 250 grain Nosler Partition HG's for shooting deer. The amount of damage they create compared to what I saw with the cast bullets is night and day. I also shot one bear about 10 years ago with a .44 mag revolver and 300 grain Nosler soft point. It turned it's insides to jelly and the exit wound was about the size of a quarter. Death came very quickly. That was a pretty big bear as well.

I have not doubt that cast bullets kill. But from what I had read, I was just expecting a much larger permanent wound channel.

Pete

quote:

Originally posted by talentrec:
Wow, I didn't mean to get the pot this stirred up!

JWP - I looked at the permanent wound channels after the hide was off. They weren't much bigger than the metplat; I couldn't fit my pinkie into them if that gives you an indication of size.



Pete

The hole through though muscle is always smaller and with les damage than a hole through lung tissue, heart or liver. The key is the damage through the vital organs and which ones were actualy hit, not which that one thinks were hit judging by the intrance and exit holes. This an only be confirmed by a complete necropcy and any thing sort is pur speculation that leads to inaccurate conclusions


The wound channel through a Deer will relates to a wound channel through a nog or a bear how? The bullets were shot from a rifle as well generating much greater velocity an apples to oranges comparision, the only thing the 2 have in common is that they are both bullets

quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:

quote:

The wound channel through a Deer will relates to a wound channel through a nog or a bear how? The bullets were shot from a rifle as well generating much greater velocity an apples to oranges comparision, the only thing the 2 have in common is that they are both bullets

How does a rifle shot zebra AND a rifle shot bear have anything to do with this discussion?

Forgotten this post and that it was inreference to how fast the animal died after being shot

Remember?

quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:

quote:

This Bear was over 400 pounds and 1 shot through the shoulder with a hard cast and No Drama.

This Bear was taken by a friend

Nice bear!

quote:

That a bullet broke through the spine and exited tells me the bullet did an admirable job. JMHO.

That's the fundamental difference in our opinions that I am desperately trying to understand. When a bullet kills quickly it does an admirable job IMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:
It just seemed odd to me that you are allowed to bring rifle kills into the discussion but talentrec isn't.

Your logic seems odd to me that you can not connect the dots. I responded to how fast animal died when you claimed that only when animals died quickly did the bullets do an adnireable job but did not compare the wound channel from a rifle to that of a handgun nor did I compare the wound in different animals as to the testimony as to whether or not they did an admireable job in different animals. Surely you see the difference or is the bait and switch your game

I always agree with 1000 to 1200 fps giving good penetration and they do kill OK with the proper meplat but I have had to think back some.
I shot a lot of deer with my .45 using 335+ boolits at around 1160 fps. All of them lived longer then any I shot with my .44 with 320 gr boolits at 1316 fps or the 420 gr .475 boolit at 1350 fps.
There really does seem to be a difference in internal damage with just that slight increase in velocity.
But getting carried away and using the same type and weight hard cast in my 45-70 going 1632 fps has shown a complete and total failure to disrupt internals, had me shaking my head with lost deer and those that went 200 yards. Whitworth was in on one of those kills. The lungs just had a hole through them.
I still agree slower is good and better then too fast but I have to stick my foot in my mouth and say around 1350 fps is as good as it gets for hard cast.
Maybe a tiny bit of expansion would be better with the slower boolits but when too fast they NEED some expansion. Over expansion is no good either, went that route with the 45-70 using a softer hollow point and lost almost a whole shoulder where the boolit exited.
But just my experience with deer, the .45 has less an effect on deer then the .44.
Is it really a few hundred fps difference? I think so.
I would expect a .454 and .460 with hard cast would be too fast so some expansion is needed.
This will always be an issue and results seen in the field will always be more important in the end.
Then nobody can explain to me why a little .45 round ball from a cap and ball revolver at 1100 fps just knocks deer silly and they penetrate all the way. They only weigh 143 gr! , this is where I stand!

On 24 Hoyr this story was posted about a hog that tried to get to the hunters was killed with 2 shots from a Charter Arms Bull Dog with a 240 grain hard cast at only 842 FPS. 1 of the 2 shots went through both lungs and death ensued quickly with no drama

Here is an excerp;

quote:

The Charter gun was loaded with the Magnus 240gr BBWC with 7.0grs of U-Clays. This load chronographed 842fps from the Target Bulldog. Penetration with this load was very good in the ballistic buffalo and the wound channel was a nice round hole. I have used this bullet on deer before and the wound channel is always good. I put a piece of orange duct tape on the front sight for better visibility and the little Charter was ready to go.



The aftermath of the shootout was analyzed. The bullets, one of Magnus bullets 240gr BBSWC performed perfectly. I highly recommend his bullets. I like to cast my own but don’t always have time. These are some of my favorites when I have to buy cast bullets. The first bullet entered on the left side right behind the front leg one third up the body and exited 10” behind the offside shoulder. The second bullet entered the back side of the right shoulder taking out both lungs. It was right under the offside hide. The first bullet penetrated 18” and the second bullet penetrated 13”. The bullet was recovered intact.

The link to the whole post

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/.../4102083#Post4102083

One of the zebra`s I have shot - got the bullet in front of the shoulder, penetrated diagonally and was found in the skin (middle of the stomach). It was a 240 XTP Mag./1880 fps/454, and he was shot at 110 yds. The bullet - did not expand, and that`s the reason for the penetration.
The zebra walked along with rest of the herd for about 20 minutes, before he went down.
A zebra can be a tough animal

There is always a "challenge" to get enough "testing-objects" .
Within the last 10 years I have shot three-figured amount of animals (size: small to big) with different calibers/bullets.

Revolvers:

Honestly spoken: I can`t see any difference between hard-cast and cast with different meplates/caliber.

A bad hit = bad result and v. a versa!

From my TC`s in 30-30/375 JDJ - and expanding bullets - I have seen a big difference between different bullets.
Some of them - have almost exploded.

wow, i think jwp was proving a point with the rifle example that's pretty easy to understand, why animals go far with extreme damage is a mystery. i've seen more bang flops on deer sized animals with a 30/30 than any other rifle. i've seen so many different results from kill shots into the vitals with lots of damage and until i started using barnes expandables that you just couldn't tell a difference based on caliber or anything. i've seen great differences in wound channels based on the slightest of differences in nose design of hardcasts and have seen animals fall over very very quickly and have a rather unimpressive wound channel. it's just hard to quantify. i think the key with big bore pistols is to break the animal down by destroying the skeletal system, just like with a rifle. until i get up to x bullets out of a 460 weatherby it's just the only true guarantee. i've had hogs run further from a .375HH which just destoryed the vitals and had bang flops from a .44 mag with buffalo bore low recoil 255 gr hardcasts which is more of a keith style and the wound channel was just not that impressive. the key is to have a bullet that will stay together when it rips through the bone in question. i'd rather use a corbon penetrator or a punch bullet which will hold together than a hardcast that may not but may have a better nose for penetration so to speak as both will blow through about anything but it's all moot if a bullet doesn't hold together.

Torn flesh will have the ragged edges nit together faster then a clean cut. Animals have very fast coagulation products in blood and even though a wound is mortal, bleeding can stop very soon.
Since no two act the same when hit, you should always have a blood trail, nothing else will lead you to the animal. If you expect a bang-flop all the time, you are in the wrong game. It can be done with a rifle from a rest at a standing animal most times but to hit the right spot with a handgun off hand every shot is drawing straws or playing the lottery. We revolver hunters recognize this and do what we can to recover game and use the right tools to get it done.
I have to laugh at those that say a .475 is too big for deer but think nothing of using a .300 mag for 120# deer.
Choose your tools carefully or it is like building a house with a tack hammer or putting in finishing nails with a sledge hammer.
Experience always trumps anything else.

rifles sure don't give a bang flop most times either unless it's cns getting hit.

quote:

Since no two act the same when hit, you should always have a blood trail, nothing else will lead you to the animal. If you expect a bang-flop all the time, you are in the wrong game. It can be done with a rifle from a rest at a standing animal most times but to hit the right spot with a handgun off hand every shot is drawing straws or playing the lottery. We revolver hunters recognize this and do what we can to recover game and use the right tools to get it done.
I have to laugh at those that say a .475 is too big for deer but think nothing of using a .300 mag for 120# deer.
Choose your tools carefully or it is like building a house with a tack hammer or putting in finishing nails with a sledge hammer.
Experience always trumps anything else.

I'm not big on copying posts, but this one rates an exception. It's as well said as it gets and I think is required reading for anyone contemplating taking game with a handgun of any kind.

You won't even get "bang-flop" on a squirrel with a .22 every time and never if you screw up the shot.

I agree with that sentiment!