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Originally posted by Boxhead:
Holy crap. Been away two months and the same topics still rambles...;-)

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Originally posted by tradmark:
wow, i think jwp was proving a point with the rifle example that's pretty easy to understand, why animals go far with extreme damage is a mystery. .

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Posted 26 May 2010 17:44 Hide Post
Holy crap. Been away two months and the same topics still rambles...;-)

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Originally posted by RJM:
Outfitter JJ Hack did an excellent post over on the 24HrCF several years ago about all his hunting experience with black bear. His bottom line was, if you need a bullet for defense to penetrate the head or shoulders by all means use a hard cast. If "hunting" for bear, use a jacketed hollow point.

He found that that the internal damage caused by HPs seem to cause the bear so much pain they would bite at the entrance wounds giving the opportunity for more shots... Way too often a hard cast would just punch a hole through and the bear would take off like it was scalded and just keep running...

I have only shot a few deer with handguns... 357s and .44s. The ones hit with HPs went right down...those with cast..ran... All were lung shots under 25 yards. This past year I hunted with handguns again but never pulled the trigger as what I wanted just didn't present itself. One day I hunted with 210 HPs from a long barreled Model 57 and the other days with a Freedom Arms with hardcast... If hunting with hard cast bullets I really prefer snow on the ground as where I hunt is very thick and if a deer makes 50 yards without a good blood trail it can easily be lost or shot by another hunter...

Bob

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Originally posted by RJM:
Can't do anything but agree with you... Each shot fired has it own unique ending...

When you use a cast bullet on deer, do you say on a flat broadside shot, aim for the lungs or shoulder...

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Originally posted by cottonstalk:The difference for me is dependability.When a jhp does as it was designed they work great.But if my behind is on the line I don't want there to be any doubt.And from my experience a hard cast will always do what is asked of it,penetrate.

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Originally posted by jwp475:
Just to be clear I think that hollow points have their place. The Remington 240 grain Semi Jacketed Hoollow point is a case in point. With the large amount of expossed soft lead this bullet always expands. Thus the penetration is about the same as a 45 ACP with ball ammo, acctualy the 45 ACP penetrates a little farther. This bullet is fine for broad side shots on Deer. The massive amount of expansion greatly reduces penetration. Where this bullet shines IMHO is as a self defense load for 2 legged varmints and is the load that I keep im my 44 mag by the bed.

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Originally posted by cottonstalk:
I have been fortunate enough to see multiple black bear shot.I have seen both jhps and hc used.With the right hc bullet,wide meplat,the results are devistating.From my experience,none which are spot and stalk,the closer you are the more dependable your ammo has to be.

Here's a thought a blackbear is feeding 60 yards away and doesn't know you are there,you shoot a jhp that over expands and doesn't penetrate as deeply as it needs to, to hit the vitals no big deal just shoot again,since they bite at the entrance holes,funny.But put that same bear in a laurel bay tunnel feet from you and shoot him with that same jhp that over expanded and the results will not be to your liking,because it won't be the bullet hole he will be biting at,I can promise you that.

The difference for me is dependability.When a jhp does as it was designed they work great.But if my behind is on the line I don't want there to be any doubt.And from my experience a hard cast will always do what is asked of it,penetrate.

And failure to reach the vitals is not an option.This is all my opinion from my experiences.

Well, at least have an OK day

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Originally posted by cottonstalk:
dla I have had good results with anything that provides a wide meplat,.320 and bigger prefered.Now let me tell you why because I have not always been a hc supporter.

When I used jacketed projectiles I used speer and hornady in jhp and jsp.Of the two jsp is a better penetrater.Make a long story short while cutting out a 400lb bear I removed a hornady xtp that had pancaked against the brisket,it had snapped everything but appeared to have lost its momentum to push on through.No vitals were damaged,the shot........5 1/2" redhawk 44 mag from less than 4 feet.Now lucky for everyone the dogs seemed exceptionally rough on this bear and turned his attention and moved him out to another hunter who dispatched him with a 45-70.

Another instance a hunter fired on a bayed bear,bear charged two more hits, knocked hunter off his feet,hunter fighting for survival pushed bears head up away from face fires again killing bear and taking off his pointing finger in the process.Took several folks to roll bear off hunter and get him to medical treatment,hunter not the bear.Three jhp bullets found one midway through front shoulder bone,one half way through lung,third found inside skull,now this shot was point blank.

Now as for jsp I have seen them work reasonably well.With a few jacket core seperations being there only downfall but penetration usually is good.Have seen several times lead core push through leaving jacket inside.

Well somewhere I came across the hc bullets.I started with Buffalo bore primarily and found out reguardless of the angle you could make two holes in bears.I shot a few while on stand and they worked.I used them while trailing up wounded bear for other hunters,they worked.Then dog hunting,they worked.The only thing you must watch with dogs is location of dogs at the time of the shot. I have yet to recover a hc bullet.

When you crawl on your hands and knees following a blood trail into some thick swamp brush/or bay with as little light as possible and round a bend in a ditch/rootmat/or dead fall and there he is trying to get on his feet you turn your light up and his eyes meet yours how much trust do you need in the round headed out the barrel?

I am of the opinion jhp is okay for white-tails and smaller,and prefer hc for everything else.HC does and will work on anything and for the hunter looking one load,such as myself,hc is my choice.Shot placement will always be the most important thing and a good bullet will not make up for poor shooting.If I had to be a jacketed guy/gal it would be jsp not jhp.

So I say all this to say LFN,WFN,WLN and some kieth style(wad cutters) have the .320 and larger meplats I like.

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Originally posted by cottonstalk:
dla I have had good results with anything that provides a wide meplat,.320 and bigger prefered.Now let me tell you why because I have not always been a hc supporter.

When I used jacketed projectiles I used speer and hornady in jhp and jsp.Of the two jsp is a better penetrater.Make a long story short while cutting out a 400lb bear I removed a hornady xtp that had pancaked against the brisket,it had snapped everything but appeared to have lost its momentum to push on through.No vitals were damaged,the shot........5 1/2" redhawk 44 mag from less than 4 feet.Now lucky for everyone the dogs seemed exceptionally rough on this bear and turned his attention and moved him out to another hunter who dispatched him with a 45-70.

Another instance a hunter fired on a bayed bear,bear charged two more hits, knocked hunter off his feet,hunter fighting for survival pushed bears head up away from face fires again killing bear and taking off his pointing finger in the process.Took several folks to roll bear off hunter and get him to medical treatment,hunter not the bear.Three jhp bullets found one midway through front shoulder bone,one half way through lung,third found inside skull,now this shot was point blank.

Now as for jsp I have seen them work reasonably well.With a few jacket core seperations being there only downfall but penetration usually is good.Have seen several times lead core push through leaving jacket inside.

Well somewhere I came across the hc bullets.I started with Buffalo bore primarily and found out reguardless of the angle you could make two holes in bears.I shot a few while on stand and they worked.I used them while trailing up wounded bear for other hunters,they worked.Then dog hunting,they worked.The only thing you must watch with dogs is location of dogs at the time of the shot. I have yet to recover a hc bullet.

When you crawl on your hands and knees following a blood trail into some thick swamp brush/or bay with as little light as possible and round a bend in a ditch/rootmat/or dead fall and there he is trying to get on his feet you turn your light up and his eyes meet yours how much trust do you need in the round headed out the barrel?

I am of the opinion jhp is okay for white-tails and smaller,and prefer hc for everything else.HC does and will work on anything and for the hunter looking one load,such as myself,hc is my choice.Shot placement will always be the most important thing and a good bullet will not make up for poor shooting.If I had to be a jacketed guy/gal it would be jsp not jhp.

So I say all this to say LFN,WFN,WLN and some kieth style(wad cutters) have the .320 and larger meplats I like.

Well, at least have an OK day

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Originally posted by RJM:

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Originally posted by jwp475:
Just to be clear I think that hollow points have their place. The Remington 240 grain Semi Jacketed Hoollow point is a case in point. With the large amount of expossed soft lead this bullet always expands. Thus the penetration is about the same as a 45 ACP with ball ammo, acctualy the 45 ACP penetrates a little farther. This bullet is fine for broad side shots on Deer. The massive amount of expansion greatly reduces penetration. Where this bullet shines IMHO is as a self defense load for 2 legged varmints and is the load that I keep im my 44 mag by the bed.

Back in the 1980s when I was with Dallas PD a friend shot a guy who had just turned and taken a shot at my friend and missed at about 20'. My friend was carrying a nickel plated 6.5" 29-2 and put three rounds of said Remington 240s in the guy before he hit the ground. First round stared the guy back on his heals, second round pushed him faster and the third round was at such an angle it hit in the abdomen and angled up toward the shoulder blades....all bullets were recovered fully expanded...no exits....

For something that expands as well but with a little less recoil in 4" guns try the Speer .44 Magnum 200 grain Gold Dot HP Short Barrel Load...1080 from a 4" and mild recoil.

Bob

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Originally posted by N E 450 No2:

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Originally posted by RJM:

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Originally posted by jwp475:
Just to be clear I think that hollow points have their place. The Remington 240 grain Semi Jacketed Hoollow point is a case in point. With the large amount of expossed soft lead this bullet always expands. Thus the penetration is about the same as a 45 ACP with ball ammo, acctualy the 45 ACP penetrates a little farther. This bullet is fine for broad side shots on Deer. The massive amount of expansion greatly reduces penetration. Where this bullet shines IMHO is as a self defense load for 2 legged varmints and is the load that I keep im my 44 mag by the bed.

Back in the 1980s when I was with Dallas PD a friend shot a guy who had just turned and taken a shot at my friend and missed at about 20'. My friend was carrying a nickel plated 6.5" 29-2 and put three rounds of said Remington 240s in the guy before he hit the ground. First round stared the guy back on his heals, second round pushed him faster and the third round was at such an angle it hit in the abdomen and angled up toward the shoulder blades....all bullets were recovered fully expanded...no exits....

For something that expands as well but with a little less recoil in 4" guns try the Speer .44 Magnum 200 grain Gold Dot HP Short Barrel Load...1080 from a 4" and mild recoil.

Bob

Back in the Day, when the Dallas Police were Manly Men, we did not carry "no" Light Specials, in our Magnums.

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Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
RMc

Point of order, this post was originaly started talking about the 45 cal.

So bullet weight and diameter figure into the killing power equation as well.

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Originally posted by cottonstalk:
Yes they would but .280 meplat for the 44 is a poor choice IMO.In 44 a meplat of .320 would be my first choice.Why would anyone go through the trouble of shooting a larger caliber,dealing with more recoil and minimize its effectiveness be shooting a small meplat bullet?Kind of like buying a ferrari and asking for a 4cylinder engine.Just doesn't add up.

Heres a theory,for 357 a .280 meplat,44 a .320 ,45 a .339,475 a .356 , 500 a .376 , 512 a .384.Now the theory is this these numbers are the minimum meplats to start with for each caliber,larger is better.Veral said 75% meplat is a good start and the higher is better.

RMc you limited your reference to deer sized game and we'll use that but a 357 loaded appropriately will never compete IMO with a properly loaded 44 in damage or killing power.

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Originally posted by RMc:

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Originally posted by cottonstalk:
Yes they would but .280 meplat for the 44 is a poor choice IMO.In 44 a meplat of .320 would be my first choice.Why would anyone go through the trouble of shooting a larger caliber,dealing with more recoil and minimize its effectiveness be shooting a small meplat bullet?Kind of like buying a ferrari and asking for a 4cylinder engine.Just doesn't add up.

Heres a theory,for 357 a .280 meplat,44 a .320 ,45 a .339,475 a .356 , 500 a .376 , 512 a .384.Now the theory is this these numbers are the minimum meplats to start with for each caliber,larger is better.Veral said 75% meplat is a good start and the higher is better.

RMc you limited your reference to deer sized game and we'll use that but a 357 loaded appropriately will never compete IMO with a properly loaded 44 in damage or killing power.

I agree with the larger caliber larger meplat concept. What I had in mind is a direct comparison to the relative small meplat of the vaunted 250gr. .44 Keith bullet. On the most commonly sought game in the lower 48 there would appear to be no real advantage over a 185 wfn .357 magnum.

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Originally posted by jwp475:
puts game down quickly

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Originally posted by x-caliber:

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Originally posted by jwp475:
puts game down quickly

I agree that this is a good indicator of the effectiveness of a load.

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Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
The meplat on my Keith bullets [H&G mold is] .325.

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Originally posted by DWright: