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i already have my ny permit but needed course for maine permit.Wow i don't know the nra qualifications but this guy described single action pistol and yes he used term pistol instead of revolver as being have to load one shell at a time through loading gate on side and went farther to say you can but a cable lock down barrel with cylinder in and come out loading gate.A attendee asked him about a statement of checking gun over what to look for and instructor reply cleaning .Made me wonder what is criteria for being a nra instructor and i have a copy of his nra certificate so i do know he is certified DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR | ||
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Sounds like saying "the guy had a room temperature IQ" would imply that the room was inside an igloo... AD If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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Yikes. Every now and again, one slips through the cracks...... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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That reminds me of a RO at an IPSC match .As I finished he said "let me see you drop the hammer " I was shooting a hammerless HK P7 !! When I said it doesn't have a hammmer he was confused and said "drop the hammer anyway" I cocked it and pulled the trigger which seemed to satisfy him !!   | |||
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i was real close to correcting him but i wanted to get out of there as fast as i could and he ran over a half hr anyway.I just feel bad for the people that don't know about handguns to get bad info DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR | |||
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I took the course recently, too. I had options of less expensive courses with fewer classroom hours-- but I consider it time and $$ well-spent to have had a good and thorough course. | |||
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After I received my passing grade, I believe I would write a letter to the NRA and the licensing agency regarding this chap. Too much misinformation being taught now and he's doing his pupils a disservice by not knowing the information any better than you described. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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This is a very good suggestion and I agree, get the slip of paper in your hands first, and then launch your letter writing campaign. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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i was given a number and email address to contact the higher up so i will contact them soon DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR | |||
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I'm interested to hear what they say about this. Please keep us posted. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Since the most commonly used definition of "pistol" is
And since it began in the 1500s when there were no auto-loading pistols, I have no problem with the designation he used for that, but for the rest, he is an idiot. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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ok larry i will give up that one. Todays term meaning for pistol but yes that one can be understood even though that term and the term weapon used for handgun or hunting rifle or shotgun.I can't stand these terms just in that context just my feelings DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR | |||
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Had a similar experience when I had to take hunters safety last year in Iowa (I was old enough to not be required to take it in Nebraska). One of the instructors DEMANDED that the safest way to carry a revolver was "all cylinders loaded and at half cocked". When I said that some designs don't have a "half cock" posistion, and that no gun maker would reccomend carrying a loaded revolver that way, he called me a liar and said I was going to shoot my self by carrying hammer down on an empty cylinder. A great many other adult students complained to the DNR guys about it afterwards. My reccomendation to everyone who goes to a gun course like that is to never take anything the instructor says as correct unless you can document it from other sources. | |||
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Like Larry, I guess I'm at a loss with the "pistol" versus "revolver" issue here. "Single Action" pretty well describes it all. Now with the cable. It was goof, but perhaps it was just a terminolgy issue. The standard NRA cablelock on a single action revolver, goes through the cylinder and out the loading port. Standing in front of a class of people can be very intimidating to some people and even after you've done it hundreds of times, you'll still mistate some phrases to people who, in all honesty, know more about a particular subject than you do. I always preface my classes with the statement that I'm certified and chartered by the state to qualify the students but I understand many students have more practical and technical knowlege that I do on certain things. Notwithstanding, however, remains the fact that is I who must certify them and THEY must pass the test I give them. It's easy to ridicule an instructor, but just ow many of those so eager to do that are willing to take his place up in front of that class? NEJack, I guess I'm a dummy. What gun do you know of that doesn't have a "half cock" on it. All newer guns have a hammer lock out device. Smith & Wesson recommends all tubes be full. The empty cylinder has always been a bit goofy on single actions with lockouts or half cock. The NEXT cylinder in the rotation should be left empty if you wanted to really stick to the letter about "safety" anyway. So I suppose the only SAFE way to carry a single action was with either only 4 rounds in the six cylinders or carrying it empty to begin with. Guns aren't inherently dangerous. As we teach, a gun is the safest yet most patient danger in the world. It can sit in a holster, in a drawer or in a safe for centuries, and never cause a single problem until one careless person picks it up. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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I would not call it ridiculing an instructor, I see it more like expecting him to know the subject that he is teaching... _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Ruger single action revolvers do not have a half cock on them and no single action should ever be carried on half cock. 5 In the chamber for the old style single action (Colt Type lock work) with the hammer down on an empty chamber is the safe way to carry them.The single action revolvers with transfer bars can be carried with all 6 chambers loaded. No double action revolver that I am aware of has a half cock. No revolver is worth any more than a club if the key lock is locked. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Actually jwp, ALL modern double actions have a half cock. You can't use it as you did the older models but when you cock the pistol to fire it single action, you'll hear that half cock spur go by the sear. When the gun is fired, the trigger spring "bounces back" the hammer to the automatic "safe" or "quarter cock" position and is locked out from contacting the round or the firing pin. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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Are you saying that a double action revolver can be placed on 1/2 cock and carried that way? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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George, I just checked my Taurus .22, Colt Trooper Mk III, my Ruger Redhawk and my Ruger New Model Blackhawk. No matter how I manipulate the hammers on these revolvers, the hammers are either at full cock, fully down or being held by my thumb. There are clicking sounds while cocking, but nothing holds the hammer at any intermediate position under any sequence of actions whatsoever. After firing and releasing the trigger to its forward position, the hammers on the Rugers rest on the frame in a position as forward as it can ever be, not "bounced back" or retracted even microscopically.. Smith & Wesson had their patented "rebounding hammer" which system APPEARS to retract the hammer, but actually it is the hammer's pivot point which moves slightly (when the trigger is released) to back the firing pin away from the primer. So, that might appear to be a half cock, but it ain't because there is no half-cock notch. Colt (in their manual included with the Series 70 1911 model Semi-Auto's) talks about the half-cock notch and advises strongly that the gun should NEVER be carried with the hammer at half-cock. They are silent about the half-cock notch on their double action revolvers, probably because there isn't one. I don't know about their single actions revolvers. I don't have one of those. Sorry to be so objectionable, but dat's da trooth. Lost Sheep (Larry) Remember, believe only half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. And that goes double for the internet. Check out everything you find with an independent, trusted source. This instruction is no exception. | |||
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This mirrors my findings as well........ "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Originally posted by (Lost Sheep)
Exactly......  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Then I apologize. Since I'm a Smith instructor, I guess I read their lesson plan and forgot they weren't endorsing "other" pistols. I just checked a Ruger and a Taurus I have. Both have lockout devices on the hammer instead of a half cock position. The lockouts slide down and out of the way when the hammer is cocked. I don't think anywhere in what I wrote did I mention carrying a DOUBLE ACTION revolver on half cock. Again, all the double actions I deal with have a bounce block or a lock out to begin with. On the single actions, the "half cock" is a deep indention on the sear block and when the hammer is in that position on a gun that hasn't been tinkered with, it's virtually impossible for it to fire accidentally. My take is that no gun ever fired "accidentally" until someone screwed up holding it. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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The old Single action revolers with the sear notches can become worn and not hold (they do not need to be screwed with) and are notorious for not beeing safe... _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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jwp, God only knows that there'll never be a subject you can't act like a troll about. Since you seem to be God's gift to his forum, I'm just going to put you on my ignore list so I don't have to be "enlightened" by your expertise. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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George, what in the world prompted this? You made some definitive statements that were counter to the experiences of others on this board including myself. So what's the problem? "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Ok by me, if you wish to navigate through life in ignorant bliss.... _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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On a rebounding hammer double action revolver they have a rebound slide that keeps the hammer back away from the firing pin it is not a 1/4 or 1/2 cock notch. No Double action revolver has a 1/4 or 1/2 cock notch. Lets keep the terminolgy correct. I just double checked this with one of the best handgun Smiths in the bussines. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Whitworth, now please, don't you insult me. For every "rule" there's going to be an exception, if for no other reason than stupidity. If we deal on that presumption, then nothing you or I or anyone else ever remarks about is going to be considered relevant. The age of a firearm has nothing to do with the practicality of the design and most of us who aren't anal pistoleros know that all modern firearms have built in safety features in an attempt to make them idiot proof. They try, but too many idiots are being born every day. Anyone who's not part of the usual clique here knows the deal. Look at the thread that talked about Coca Cola. And YOU know that wasn't the first such incident. If he's your friend, that's great. You have to live with that, I don't. And putting him on my ignore list is bound to make life easier for everyone. I didn't think this category was intended to be used by CNC engineers, gunsmiths, and reloading specialists. MOST of us who use pistols aren't any of those things. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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No one insulted you but you sure are getting defensive. You made an assertion that was only partially correct and when the debate ensued, you found it insulting. Yes, jwp is a friend of mine as Redhawk1 is a friend of yours. So be it. I don't find any insults in the responses you have received here. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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I have not posted anything that was inaccurate not in the Coca Cola thread, if you can point that out please do.. With reference of course.. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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George, I' not sure either of us is clear on your terminology. However, I am clear on the fact that once someone does not agree with you that person or persons is stupid, or whatever other insult you can hurl at them. You sir are no longer welcome on this forum. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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Whitworth, I ask one thing of you,please leave me out of this. My name should not of been brought up nor am I participating in this pissing contest. Personally I find one guy that gets under my skin here so I am avoiding him, I don't see a need to have someone correct or follow my posts with there opinion of my post or pick it apart. I feel like I am watching a kid picking a scab, some time it is best to just leave it alone. Whitworth, you and I have had some great discussions as well as BFRshooter on there forum. I hope we can continue to do so. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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Correct infomation and terminology are important, without useing the correct terminology it would be impossible to understand anothers point. Wrong info can be a safety concern as well.The best aspect of these forums is the exchange of information (correct infornation)... _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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i'm willling to accept some accidently mis use of termiknowldgly but don't say you are the expert then give bad info(referring to instructor).AS far as the cable lock going through barrel and out loading gate plz post a pic cause i'm not smart enough for that one DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR | |||
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 _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Tbear, That is the point. You cannot run a cable lock through the barrel and out the loading port, as the instructor (allegedly) said. No picture will be available because it is impossible unless you remove the cylinder. But that is really stretching the envelope of what is meant by "out the loading port". Nitpicking. example: "It depends on what the meaning of 'is' is." W.J. Clinton In defense of the alleged instructor, I will say this. It is easy to mis-speak on yourself. Some people are not comfortable in public speaking (though, if they are presenting themselves as a professional instructor, they owe it to their audience to GET comfortable). It is as easy to say "through the barrel and out the loading gate" when you mean to say "through a chamber and out the loading gate" as it is to mis-hear it, especially if the speaker mumbles. I do not mean to fault your hearing or attention, but I have to allow the possibility that you mis-heard the instructor as well as the possibility that he simply mis-spoke. Teaching is hard. A teacher must be a master of two arts. The art of that which they teach, and the art of teaching. They are (usually) separate and distinct disciplines, both difficult to master in their own rights. Lost Sheep (Larry) | |||
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Lost sheep you are so right, it is easy to get tongue tied in public speaking. I have gone to many classes and some instructors that have been teaching for many years still get tongue tied. Shit happens. Also, if an instructor makes a mistake, or there is something I have a question on, I wait tell the break time to address the instructor personally. Many times, either I was given more information which made it clear to me, or the instructor would say, I did not know that and when the class resumed, the instructor made the correction. But I would not do it in front of the class in order to make the instructor look bad. We all make mistakes, but we don't need someone making it a habit to point out even the smallest mistakes. As for the single action, yes there is no way a cable can go through the barrel and out the loading gate. I think Freedom Arms has one of the best lock out there for a single action, it goes down the barrel and into the cylinder. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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said he has been instructor for 30 yrs wether nra or hunter safety.As far as cable lock through barrell that he showed with his hands to put cable down barrel and also was saying it and out loading gate he was holding up a SA for deminstration DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR | |||
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WOW! Didn't mean to stir this one up. My uncle was a firearm instructor, and had an old worn single action (don't remember the make) that would not hold very well on half cock. He used it to demonstrate that while in a gun in good working condition half cock can be used, it can fail if the gun is worn out. My uncle drilled it in to me to never completly trust any type of mechanical safety, as they all can become worn out and not function 100%. So it is part of my shooting drill that I always check the safety before shooting (IE make sure it is on "fire" or the hammer is in posistion). Makes some of my ex Army buddies a little nuts, but that is how I learned and it is in the muscle memorey now. The instructor in question however said that ALL revolvers (single or double action) should be carried at half cock. Since my SRH can't be put at half cock (I have tried), and the manuel expliciatly states you can't do that, I wanted to make sure that some of the other students knew that. I didn't make a big fuss, but did bring it up in the class. My fear was that someone would try to do that in the field with a revolver that is not designed for it, and have an accident. Now many revolvers have a transfer bar that prevents the hammer from striking the firing pin if it is not fully cocked, but you never know what can happen with a worn or modified gun. | |||
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NEJack, then that instructor was simply wrong and you should report it. I guess from being on the other side of that podium for 30 years, I'm more defensive that I should be. I've seen fellow instructors step on their tongues however, and that's why our requirement is for "team teaching" with at least two instructors in the class at all times (that and other reasons). And I KNOW that the "half cock" position on the sear of OLD, DIRTY, and RUSTED guns can and will fail. Once that spur rounds off, it can, but again, the modern (read "new" or "well maintained" firearm is not what I referred to. We reiterate to all our classes and it's an item on our tests that when we define "safety" on a gun, it is a mechanical device and can and will fail under certain circumstances, not the least of which involves human contact. We need more people like your uncle (and you) in front of classes. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff we see and hear. The ones that scare hell out of me are the ones who show up with a "borrowed" pistol they've never shot before. Redhawk was at one of my classes where a guy showed up, went through the class, and then told us he'd like to qualify but he didn't own a pistol. He asked to borrow one. I lent him mine and the 5 rounds he was allowed. The gun I had that day was the 500 Smith. Let me just say he didn't qualify but he did tell me when he left that he didn't think handgun hunting was something he'd try again. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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