The S&W DOES make a click when cocking! But it is the cylinder lock being released to contact the cylinder grooves. I can't picture that being a half cock nor as hard as I try, can I find one. Never seemed to find one on any double action either.
The problem with a Colt half cock or safety notch was that if the gun falls out of the holster and the hammer hits the ground it will break the tip off the trigger.
Then guys would stone the sear surface so the trigger would nick the half cock and safety and either break something or wear the half cock and safety stubs off.
Snagging the hammer so it comes back and then if it gets unsnagged, it can fire the gun as it rotates the cylinder as the hammer comes back. Sometimes it won't if the trigger doesn't break and the trigger will fall into a notch and stop. I understand the cowboys always carried spare triggers because they broke so easy.
Either way when you say to carry in half cock, that is wrong. The safety notch is for carry as it keeps the cylinder locked. With an empty chamber under the hammer, if the trigger breaks it will not fire but if carried in half cock, the cylinder can rotate to put a live round under the hammer.
A gun like the Ruger will not fire unless the trigger is also held back. That makes the transfer bar the safest system for the single action.
Double actions like the S&W have a hammer block that works like a transfer bar in reverse but is still safe because the trigger must be back for the gun to fire.
The SRH and RH also has an actual transfer bar, not a hammer block. Transfer bars rise between the hammer and pin to allow the hammer to transfer the impact to the pin.
Hammer blocks hold the hammer back off the pin until the trigger is back and the hammer itself hits the pin or the pin on the hammer hits the primer.

BFR, I'm not following you on the SA description. Understand all about the spur firing pin, but dropping it on the hammer and breaking the trigger sort of throw me off. But still, we're talking rationalizing bad conditions in a firearm, not one that's taken care of. Remember, in handgun shooting, insuring that your firearm is in good and proper working order is one of the first rules of the range.

As for the Smith, you need to listen closely as the hammer is cocked. The smaller pistols don't make it as obvious since the radius of the roll is shorter but on the magnums, you'll hear THREE distinct clicks. And yes, they do have a hammer block, but it works in coordination with the mainspring which bounces the hammer rearward and allows that block to engage.

I sense we're arguing apples and oranges here anyway. The original thread involved a student being unhappy with the qualifications of the instructor. Just like on here, the advanced gunners are seldom too happy in having to endure sessions given by people assumed to know less than we do. That's natural I suppose, but I'll still defend not shooting the messenger. That particular situation should have been discussed on break and if there was no satisfaction for the student knowing he was correct, then he rightly should have reported the incident. And it's still truly a shame that many of you are more than qualified to teach such classes yourself, but don't feel it important enough for you to make such a commitment. That's a tough pill to swallow from instructors who spend thousands of their own dollars volunteering to give others the legal opportunity and then to be publicly lambasted for being "incompetent".

george take no offense to this but i have questions when a student needed to burrow a handgun and you are willing to lend why didn't you bring something more reasonable like a 38.

And why woukd you let a new person shoot the big 500.Granted i don't have a 500 smith nor want one but i will never let a newbe shoot my 475 linebaugh as there first shooting experience it is totally reresponsable in my opinion and i teach hunter ed and once i take care of another health issue plan on becoming a nra instructor

There is no 1/2 cock or 1/4 cock nothch on a S&W revolver..



If anyone needs more picture from different angles to be clear on this just let me know and I will take them and post..

Yes george, it is common for the end of the trigger to break on the SA Colts if the hammer is hit hard or if the sear surface was fooled with and the trigger drops into the half cock notch. It was and still is the weak link. Think of a revolver bouncing out of a holster from on a running horse or a screwed up quick draw when the gun is dropped or fanning the gun and letting the trigger move foreward a little.

I'm sorry George but you are wrong about the S&W. The second click means nothing and only can be heard if the gun is cocked slow and it is only the trigger sear surface moving off the hammer before the actual hammer sear is engaged. There are two sear sufaces, one for double action and one for single action.
The mainspring does not allow the hammer to rebound. The rebound slide and trigger spring is what moves the hammer back so the hammer block can move back and rise in the cam surface of the side plate. That happens as the trigger moves foreward.
It sounds to me like you do not know how the gun works! How can you teach anything? I suggest you study your guns better.

Nice picture JWP, I don't think George has ever seen that part of the gun!

You win BFR. Now more chitterchat. But Smith sure thinks those clicks mean something or they wouldn't build them in.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
You win BFR. Now more chitterchat. But Smith sure thinks those clicks mean something or they wouldn't build them in.

The cylender stop, the pawl, the rebound slide and the two stage double action trigger are the clicks that one can hear and they have nothing to do with a 1/4 or 1/2 cock. Double action revolvers do not nor ever have had a 1/2 or 1/4 cock and have no reason for such a feature.
The single action 1/2 cock is for loading the revolver only and is not and has never been recommended by any manufactorer to be carried loaded in this manner..

im a certified nra instructor and the course you take to earn your credentials has very little in the way of training as to how a gun works. Im sure alot of instructors pass on bad info but im sure theres very few that do it intentionaly. Those instructors get very little pay for doing what they do and most do it just to help people. they may pass on bad info and im sure theres a few that are egotistical enough to pass on bad info just to make the croud think they know more then they do but its still not near as prevelent as the misinformation thats passed on the internet but guys that think they know a hell of alot more then they do. This thread is a great example of that. best keep in mind that not everyone here is a handgun expert and things your posting will be taken to heart by some very inexperienced handgunners and if you do make a mistake youd best own up to it. NOT ALL HANDGUNS HAVE HALF COCK NOTCHES! As a matter of fact very few do anymore and NONE of them are considered a safety of any kind.

Lloyd, Bravo.. you are spot on.

quote:

Originally posted by Lost Sheep:
You cannot run a cable lock through the barrel and out the loading port, as the instructor (allegedly) said. No picture will be available because it is impossible unless you remove the cylinder.

A: A revolver is technically a type of pistol. We generally don't call it that to avoid confusion.

B: Yes you can run a cable down the barrel and out the loading port if you rotate the cylinder slightly:

quote:

Originally posted by DrHenley:

quote:

Originally posted by Lost Sheep:
You cannot run a cable lock through the barrel and out the loading port, as the instructor (allegedly) said. No picture will be available because it is impossible unless you remove the cylinder.

A: A revolver is technically a type of pistol. We generally don't call it that to avoid confusion.

B: Yes you can run a cable down the barrel and out the loading port if you rotate the cylinder slightly:

B: No you can not...

can you show me a pic of cable going down barrel and out loading gate please

Okay,

jwp, never say never. I was successful in getting the cable lock through the cylinder chamber and into the barrel of my .500 Linebaugh. Based on what I just did, this is the minimum caliber this may be accomplished with. Neither the .357 Blackhawk nor my .45 Colt Bisley would allow this operation. My .32 Bisley would not even show daylight no matter how I rotated the cylinder.

This was using the yellow Ruger cable lock. The instructions for this lock state to remove the cylinder of a single action revolver prior to installing the lock. There are most likely longer cables on the market, but I estimate a cable length of at least 15" would be needed for a 5.5" Bisley or Blackhawk.

So, while this operation is possible under very limited conditions; it is in no way practical or probable that one would successfully install a cable lock through the barrel and chamber of a single action revolver chambered for the smaller calibers with the cylinder installed.

This appears to be a case of the instructor just either didn't know what he was talking about or misspoke. Regardless, this matter needs to be cleared up for his future presentations.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by george roof:



You wouldn't believe some of the stuff we see and hear. The ones that scare hell out of me are the ones who show up with a "borrowed" pistol they've never shot before. Redhawk was at one of my classes where a guy showed up, went through the class, and then told us he'd like to qualify but he didn't own a pistol. He asked to borrow one. I lent him mine and the 5 rounds he was allowed. The gun I had that day was the 500 Smith. Let me just say he didn't qualify but he did tell me when he left that he didn't think handgun hunting was something he'd try again.[/QUOTe]

That's realy a mean spirted thing to do. Handgun hunting needs new recruits to join in and promote our sport. Shooting in general needs new blood, if our sport is to remain in the current political climate.
Intimidating someone for pleasure, simply because they have no experience is just wrong...

i can say that makes my instructor look like a saint.

REDHAWK can you verify this statement

Redhawk was at one of my classes where a guy showed up, went through the class, and then told us he'd like to qualify but he didn't own a pistol. He asked to borrow one. I lent him mine and the 5 rounds he was allowed. The gun I had that day was the 500 Smith.

quote:

Originally posted by TBEAR99:
i can say that makes my instructor look like a saint.

REDHAWK can you verify this statement

Redhawk was at one of my classes where a guy showed up, went through the class, and then told us he'd like to qualify but he didn't own a pistol. He asked to borrow one. I lent him mine and the 5 rounds he was allowed. The gun I had that day was the 500 Smith.

There is more to the story than George told.
The classes are held for people to come and get educated on handgun hunting and then qualifying at the end of the class to show proficiency with a handgun. This is part of every class in the hunter education program.

The instructions are for the students to bring a pre-sighted in handgun that they intend to use for hunting. So all the students that enroll in the class are suppose to be handgun shooters and hunters with there own guns. The Hunters Education program goes not have the funds to provide students with handguns. Remember this is a handgun hunting course and they are instructed at the time of registration to bring there handgun they intend on using.

The guy came to the class was participated in the course, at the qualification time he said he did not have a handgun to use, George was one of the instructors and the student asked George if he could use his gun to qualify. George told him the gun was a 500 Mag, but the guy still wanted to qualify with it. He had handgun experience, but not shooting the 500 Mag. George went over the gun very well with this person. Again George asked the guy if he was sure he wanted to use his 500 mag, and the guy was adamant about qualifying.

The guy shot the gun 5 times, but could not hit the paper to qualify, he did not get hurt nor was he ever left unsupervised during the shoot. He was in good hands.

The guys comment was more out of frustration of not hitting the target, then the recoil of the 500 Mag. He was upset that he did not qualify.

Some times people jump to conclusions without the full story.

I have to say that it did sound mean spirited, but you shed more light on the situation. Now, why in the world would someone take a course like the one described and not bring his/her own piece????? It simply takes all kinds.......

George could have easily included even a few of those details when he told the story, but he didn't. I think people came to exactly the conclusion that George wanted them to. Why someone would want to portray themselves that way is beyond me.

No his intentions were not meant that way, that is just how people interpret what they read.

The Internet is so impersonal, it is really hard to judge someone's feelings in just words.

Maybe he took it as amusing, I know I did.

Whitworth, I have no clue as to why this happens, but almost every class I have attended and shooting for qualification is required, there is always one or two guys that show up with no gun or the wrong gun and not even sighted in. Makes you go hummmm....

You know, as much as I wish the trolls would stop trying to embellish themselves and stop stirring the pot, I guess it's a hopeless situation on this category of the forum.

For those who actually are inquisitive, I didn't think belaboring the whole story was necessary, but I suppose, for the resident population of "experts", I was wrong.

I am a certified S&W firearms instructor. That doesn't mean I teach the engineering, construction, bullet design or R&D of firearms, just USAGE. Delaware has currently the only Certified Master Hunter Program in the nation. The state underwrites a system of lectures, demonstrations and exercises whereby a REGULAR HUNTER can earn a position whereby he is entered into a pool of special hunts and hunting priviledges in closed areas when he reaches that station. Delaware is a shotgun state where pistols and archery augment for the purposes of deer hunting. I'm qualified and do TEACH in all those disciplines.

The class I referred to, fortunately for me I assume as it seems necessary for someone to vouch for my character, Redhawk was there seeking certification. (He probably laughed at how basic and how low a standard was necessary to gain such a certification. All one had to do was, without the use of a vise or mechanical rest, fire 4 of 5 rounds into a 6 inch circle at 25 yards.)

This guy was not unknown to me beforehand. He was a friend of a friend and an insurance dealer that I'd hunted with 20 years before. I remembered him because he was a shit shot then. (He'd missed a doe standing 30 yards in front of him 3 times with what we later found to be buckshot.) In FACT, when he came to me before the class, I joked (I thought) that I hoped he was a better shot now than when I last saw him.

The class started and we cover the history of the DCMH program and then go into the history of the pistol along with improvements. Then we go into the regular range safety disciplines, after which we discuss proper stances,grips, muscle memory, sight alignment, and trigger pull. We explain how poor discipline or trigger pull can pull a shot off target. That's 2 hours worth of simple handgun basics. Then we go to the range.

The first demonstration we give at the range is with the .500 or the .460 S&W Mags where we wrap a daily newspaper around the front of the cylinder and tape it tightly. Then we explain the importance of not resting the gun on any surface that would be damaged (such as a car hood) and why the fingers should never extend forward of the trigger housing. Since that was the only reason for me to have a handgun at this class and that each student had been advised that they must bring their own, I only had the 500 with me. I fired the gun and confetti went everywhere to make the point. Then we began qualifying.

That's when this guy approached me and asked to borry MY gun. I told him that he was supposed to have brought his own but he said that the gun he owned did not meet Delaware handgun hunting requirements. I told him that the ONLY pistol I had was the 500 and that perhaps he'd rather ask someone with a .357 or .44 mag to use their guns. He said he didn't know anyone else and that if I hadn't been there, he wouldn't even try to qualify. I warned him again that the 500 was in a class by itself with recoil and assault of your senses when fired. He persisted and with much concern, I agreed to let him.

I was the lead instructor, but we had 3 other intructors at the firing line. NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE loads a firearm without an instructor there one-on-one. Delaware underwrites and insures us and the range and that's one of their requirements. Qualifications sometimes get drawn out because of this, but it's just the way we do business.

When it became his turn, I was right behind him. Again, I reminded him that the gun was going to recoil and that if he was recoil sensitive, now was the time to back out. He said he wasn't. I advised him then to accept the fact the gun was going to come up and back and not to lock his joints when he pulled the trigger.

When he touched off the first round, I saw that flash of terror in his eyes, but he hid it quickly. The bullet hit about 2 feet over the target. I guess his ego wouldn't let him quit in front of me and he fired the other 4 bullets. Only one of them even touched the paper. When the range cleared, He opened the action and handed me the pistol without removing the brass. He looked a bit ill. I asked him that since he didn't qualify, would he like to just fire a few rounds from a smaller pistol to see if he could control it. He declined but thanked me, walked directly to his car, and left.

Now I don't know how else some of you might have handled the situation in a similar circumstance, but God only knows I know you'd have done it better and differently. I didn't intentionally try to embarrass anyone or to deny anyone an opportunity. I gave this individual every opportunity to "save face" and he still persisted. I certainly wasn't about to let him harm himself or those around him. He stood over 6 feet and weighed well over 200 pounds, and unlike some of my smaller framed women, I didn't have any concern about his physical abilities to shoot a pistol of that caliber.

Now there's the WHOLE story. Make of it what you will.

i didn't imply that the class was not monitored properly.I was curious about the 500 but redhawk and your last post cleared alot up.i was thinking he was brand new to handguns.I know our hunter ed classes in ny are made up with majority being kids or inexperienced people just starting into the sport

TBear, the "Master Hunter" program is designed for the experience hunter already familiar with the firearm or bow he intends to use and qualify with. The intention is to give the experience hunter something a bit more challenging than the run of the mill hunter ed course that he's already completed and to allow him some perks not available to those who don't want to commit the extra time and schooling.

As Redhawk describes, that information is passed on to every student coming to a DMH class. Yet we have guys bring shotguns to rifle class, open sighted pistols to the handgun class, and we had several show up at our muzzleloader class with classic flintlock Kentucky rifles to "qualify". Our DMH program is designed around a burgeoning deer population here that has to be controlled. In many places (such as developments and in some of the outlying areas within city limits) Master Hunters are going to be used to thin deer out. We hardly want a guy using "Kentucky windage" shooting in areas like this. Not saying some of them CAN'T Qualify, but the AVERAGE person can't and won't.

Oh, and Jeremy, before you ask. Redhawk noted that the guy, "could not hit the paper to qualify". I said, "Only one of them even touched the paper." Both of those statements are correct. Redhawk was correct in saying that as not a single bullet touched the scoring area of the target. He DID nip the bottom edge of the 10x12 PAPER the target was printed on. I wouldn't want you to read something in there that wasn't precise. The gun is topped with a Ultra-Dot red dot scope that's 2 inches high at 25 yards. The guy was advised of that and just to be sure, after the qualifications were over, I shot the pistol myself. It was 2 inches high at 25 yards as I'd told him and all 5 shots were probably within 3 inches max. My first three touched but I guess I was getting beat up pretty well and the other two strayed a bit.

Now those are the kind of guys I like to see buy a cannon for his first gun!
It puts a lot of nice guns on Gunbroker that are only fired once.
I seen a nice brand new Ruger .44 hunter at the gun store once. Fully outfitted with a leupy scope and all the rest of the works. Fired 6 times! Trouble was the store owner was trying to make a profit from the consignment.
I was 18 when I bought my first Blackhawk .44 back in 1956. $96 from Kliens Sporting goods in Chicago and it came in the mail.
I had to buy those hot factory loads to get brass. My first shot surprised me and I had to look the gun over to see what broke. From then on, it was a love affair that never quit until I found the BFR's but I will always have the .44. I have owned at least 10 over the years of all kinds.

I have purchased a number of rifles and a handgun that were shot only a couple of times!! I like it when folks buy big and sell after only a few shots! You usually get some ammo with the deal! My SRH in .454 Casull was barely used when I bought it.

quote:

Originally posted by TBEAR99:
can you show me a pic of cable going down barrel and out loading gate please

Mileage may vary...

A picture is worth a thousand words...

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
A picture is worth a thousand words...

Can't really argue with that photo.....