I'm looking at geting a Ruger Blackhawk for fun and hopefully some deer hunting. But I'd like a .45LC Vaquero as well. So ... why not get a Blackhawk in .45LC, and have the "best of both worlds."

The other problem, though, is that I don't think the .45 would meet my state's requirements for big game hunting: 800ft-lbs at 50 yards.

Thoughts?

There are quite a few .45 Colt factory loads that comfortably exceed 800 ft-lbs of rated muzzle energy. The .45 Vaquero makes for a fine deer gun! Loaded properly, it is higher up on the food chain than the .44 magnum IMHO and you really cannot go wrong with it! Great choice! Buffalo Bore loads a 325 grain LFN at 1,325 fps that is rated at over 1,200 ft-lbs -- if your state uses ME as a rating system......no we don't need to get started on that argument again!

Our very own bfrshooter took this deer last season with his .45 Vaquero and a handload pushing a 347 grain hardcast bullet somewhere north of 1,200 fps -- it is fine deer medicine!

Yep the 45 Colt is a great way to go..

for hunting i'll take the 45 colt over 357 everyday

If your state rates cartridges on muzzle energy, how does the .357 figure in? I would definitely go with the ubiquitous .45........

There is no comparison between the .357 and the .45. Buy the .45 Colt and don't look back.

quote:

Originally posted by Tex21:
There is no comparison between the .357 and the .45. Buy the .45 Colt and don't look back.

No truer words have been spoken on this forum!

Well, the results are in ... .45LC by a landslide.

A fresh look at the regs ... 400 ft-lbs at 50 yards ... the 45LC will do that, right?

And I'm not talking about a 45LC rifle, but a Blackhawk.

Where can I find some sort of graphic or tabular information on this sort of thing? I'm new to centerfire revolvers ... we shoot .22LRs at my house (until ... soon.)

I don't think that 400 ft-lbs is a problem -- it would be for a .357, though. That's a dumb way for the state to regulate what you use, if you ask me. Get the .45 and you will not be disappointed! You can load it from mild to wild and it'll take any game you choose to tackle!

you won't be sorry with the 45

Go with the 45 Colt in a Ruger Blackhawk. Here is the information you wanted on the 45 Colt.

http://www.gunweek.com/2000/feature0910.html

Heavy .45 Colt
For Ruger and Colt Anaconda revolvers, Thompson-Center, Winchester 94 and Marlin 94 Only
Bullet Velocity Muzzle Energy
325-gr. LBT-LFN 1,325 fps 1,267 foot-pounds
300-gr. Speer PSP 1,325 fps 1,170 foot-pounds
260-gr. JHP 1,450 fps 1,214 foot-pounds
300-gr. Speer PSP* 1,200 fps 959 foot-pounds

45 Colt will take anything walking in North America!!!!

FYI- 400 ft-lbs at 50 yards is NOT a problem for the .357 Mag properly handloaded, nor with the proper factory loads. Buffalo Bore makes a 357 mag, 180 grain hard cast lead flat point bullet that makes that much at 100yards...
I personally own a 357 that I indend to take a deer with next fall, and will not feel even slightly undergunned at 50 yards WITH THE RIGHT BULLET AND LOAD.
HOWEVER, I will agree that the 45LC is the better choice. I only went 357 because at this time I can only afford one handgun, and I wanted the 357 so I can shoot 38 special light loads to start my boys (8 and 10 yrs old) out right in the world of handgun shooting.
So, I'd still say get the 45 LC if you have enough pistol experience to handle it effectively (it WILL hvae more recoil), but having said that, the 357 is definitely enough gun for what you're wanting!
Jeremy

I consider the .357 mag a minimum caliber and I don't care for minimums. I also think that muzzle energy is a poor way to judge a cartridge's effectiveness, because it doesn't tell the whole story. That said, a .45 will comfortably and easily reach these imaginery levels without high pressure and without a whole lot of recoil. Plus, it just makes a bigger hole that bleeds more! Don't get me wrong, but the .357 is a fine cartridge, but I think IMHO, that it is better suited for anti-personnel work........ Even loaded hot, I don't find the .45's recoil objectionable.......maybe I'm just numb.......

Whitworth-
I agree completely with what you're saying. I was just trying to point out that IF one were using the 400 ft-lbs @ 50 yards as the minimum (I agree that there is much, much more to killing ability than mere ft-lbs), the 357 WILL do it. But like I said, you're 100% right in that the 45 is definitely, far-and-away the better choice for this application. In fact, as soon as I can afford it, I will be adding a 45LC or a 44 mag to my collection myself!
Jeremy

Jeremy, get yourself a .45, you will be well served! I find it a more versatile cartridge than the .44 -- I am a fan of the .44, but the .45 will do everything a .44 will and a whole lot more!

It is funny what states require. The standard 45 Colt load of a 250 gr cast slug at 900 fps or so will smoke any deer within handgun range. No need at all for the heavy slugs or the high velocities except to comply with the law which, I assume allows handloaded ammunition and one can somehow prove the energy requirment if requested?

I too wonder how the levels are determined and proven. What is the standard that they are using? But Boxhead, they work so well with heavy cast bullets!! No need to push 'em tto fast, I agree, but a heavy flat-nose just penetrates like nobody's business!

The reason fpe is used is because most smaller caliber handgun rounds, don't reach that energy level at 50 yards. The 357 Mag and above will at 50 yards.

I guess the State thinks most hunters are smart enough to use the correct hunting bullet, because the proper bullet construction, speed and energy will kill.

Maybe the State is smart enough to know energy does play a role in how bullets kill...

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
I too wonder how the levels are determined and proven. What is the standard that they are using?

I too see it as a really stupid law that could let the CO bless off or ticket almost everyone in the field. How do you rate handloads? Does the officer carry a chronograph and a calculator with them? If you get a ticket will you have to pay for state certified lab testing to dodge the ticket. I can handload almost any handgun below 400 ft-lbs at 50 yrds, how do I prove I haven't done that? Seems like caliber limits would be better (like 35 cal minimum). Nice and easy for the cop in the field to determine and the "perp" to defend him or herself in front of a judge.

Sorry if this is a rant. I have the opinion that Michigan's DNR are nit-picking ticket writers who's main goal is to generate revenue for the department. If you touch the outside of your vehicle while your gun is loaded it's a "loaded gun in vehicle" offence with a healthy fine. Pull the clip and empty the chamber then sit on the tailgate to unload the clip..."loaded gun in vehicle" ticket. The case is not closed on a gun unless there is less than 1" of travel left on the zipper. Unhook a fish then drop it on the ground? Toss it back..illegal catch method. I just think this law in Michigan would be gold mine for the crooks with badges at the Department of Natural Revenues!

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:Maybe the State is smart enough to know energy does play a role in how bullets kill...

Ah yes, the single voice of discent........

I guess you believed all of Smith & Wesson's advertising hype about the .500 S&W, and ran out and bought one (or two?). They were banking on fellas like yourself. So tell me, do you believe in leprechauns too?

LOL! I too can stir

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
The reason fpe is used is because most smaller caliber handgun rounds, don't reach that energy level at 50 yards. The 357 Mag and above will at 50 yards.

I guess the State thinks most hunters are smart enough to use the correct hunting bullet, because the proper bullet construction, speed and energy will kill.

Maybe the State is smart enough to know energy does play a role in how bullets kill...

[I]Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.[/I] Winston Churchill

I knew it would not take long...lol

Of course not!! At least we are consistent -- ALL of us!

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
I knew it would not take long...lol

It didn't....

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
The reason fpe is used is because most smaller caliber handgun rounds, don't reach that energy level at 50 yards. The 357 Mag and above will at 50 yards.

I guess the State thinks most hunters are smart enough to use the correct hunting bullet, because the proper bullet construction, speed and energy will kill.

Maybe the State is smart enough to know energy does play a role in how bullets kill...

Whitworth, you and JWP need to lay off that KoolAid. As you said, the .357 is a bare minimum in my estimation (I have seen the .357 Maximum do a good job). I'm delighted that game departments are looking at ballistics instead of reading those books JWP's been quoting. It's refreshing to know that some people understand the dynamics of physics. PERSONALLY, I'd like to see the .45 LC be the bottom end pistol cartridge legal for deer. Let's be brutally honest here, most of the guys in the woods hunting deer with a pistol don't have a clue about any of the issues we've argued here. If they see it, they assume they can hit and kill it with no consideration of energy, distance, trajectory, nothing. If it WEREN'T the truth, then the anti's wouldn't be spreading all this bullshit about handgun hunting in the first place.

George, George, George....... you seem to only post when this topic comes up. Did you get a call from Redhawk by chance?? You admit that you are not really a handgun hunter, so I assume you have not taken much game with a handgun. Am I correct in my assumption? I will simply say that both the .454 Casull and .480 Ruger loaded properly with heavy flat-point hardcast bullets, kill well, with no edge going to the Casull despite it's considerable muzzle energy "advantage". Explain this, please. Smith & Wesson found a sales gimic in muzzle energy and despite the "high" energy of the .500 Smith, it doesn't seem to kill any better or penetrate any more than the lumbering .500 Linebaugh and .500 JRH. Why is this? Okay, we don't need to go down this road again, as it tends to stir many emotions and turn ugly, quickly. And no, George, I am not drinking KoolAid -- I prefer bourbon and Scotch for that matter -- oh, and make that a single malt.........

Georgeroof, the voice of inexperience..

Ok georgeroof doesn't want any quotes from Physics because Science does not match his flawed beliefs. Let's see if a little field experience along with rudimentary observation skills will have any meaning..

In this picture I am kneeling with 2 Grizz and 2 Moose trophys holding the first 475 Linebaugh ever produced by Hamilton Bowen and of coures the first Moose And Artic Grizzly or Grizzly of any kind ever shot with a 475. On this trip the other 2 hunters in camp were armed with a 338 Win and a 375 H&H. Despite the greater edge in FPE the 475 performed in every way as good and maybe a bit better than the rifles on these large beast.




Just one of many examples of the falicy of the FPE myth, when using it to predict terminal performance.


Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
- Winston Churchill

Did Mr. Churchill know Mr. Roof by chance?

quote:

PERSONALLY, I'd like to see the .45 LC be the bottom end pistol cartridge legal for deer.

So the guy with little to no hunting experience with a handgun wants to set policy...
Making a 45 Colt the bottom level accptable for Deer, realy discounts the effectiveness on Deer of the 44Mag, 41Mag, and the 357Mag all of which will kill a Deer very effectively with proper bullets and shot placement... I have killed a truck load of hogs (up to about 200 pounds) with the 357 mag and 160 grain bullets and george roof thinks that these rounds are useless..... UFB

quote:

PERSONALLY, I'd like to see the .45 LC be the bottom end pistol cartridge legal for deer.

I suppose you feel that a belted magnum of some type should be the necessary minimum requirement in a long gun for whitetails as well??

Actually I was just lurking and figured I'd troll for JWP. He's such an easy "catch and release" that every once in awhile I like sticking a hook in his mouth (Nice griz cubs and yearling moose you have there, JWP)

And as for that dumbass remark about what gun will kill what, did you know that the .22 is the preferred gun of hit men in organized crime? Small, concealable, effective at ranges of only a few inches to a few feet. I used to shoot cows and pigs with .22 short on the farm for butchering. The shorts worked great because they'd usually just knock the animal out long enough to cut its throat and let it bleed out. But I damned sure wouldn't hunt Cape Buffalo and feral hogs with one.

JWP, you truly are a legend in your own mind. What don't you get about what I said? OF COURSE the .357 will kill deer with a properly placed shot, BUT WHAT DIDN'T YOU COMPREHEND in my remarks about the "average" guy out in the woods. I really was complimenting guys like you and the guys who DO know how to shoot. I teach these people every week and I see what the AVERAGE pistol hunter is. He never shoots his pistol until a few days prior to the season and puts it back on the shelf after it closes until next year.

Well, enough fun for now. Gottem up to the boat, may as well cut the line and wait until I want some more excitement. Sometimes you guys are just too easy. LMAO.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
George, George, George....... you seem to only post when this topic comes up. Did you get a call from Redhawk by chance?? You admit that you are not really a handgun hunter, so I assume you have not taken much game with a handgun. Am I correct in my assumption? I will simply say that both the .454 Casull and .480 Ruger loaded properly with heavy flat-point hardcast bullets, kill well, with no edge going to the Casull despite it's considerable muzzle energy "advantage". Explain this, please. Smith & Wesson found a sales gimic in muzzle energy and despite the "high" energy of the .500 Smith, it doesn't seem to kill any better or penetrate any more than the lumbering .500 Linebaugh and .500 JRH. Why is this? Okay, we don't need to go down this road again, as it tends to stir many emotions and turn ugly, quickly. And no, George, I am not drinking KoolAid -- I prefer bourbon and Scotch for that matter -- oh, and make that a single malt.........

Withworth, no I did not call George up, he comes to this site as he sees fit, if you look in the taxidermy area you will see he posts there also. I don't have to have my buddies back everything I say.

I only have to get one of you three amigo's upset and the other two show up. Still waiting for the 3rd amigo... It should not take long for him to come. lol....

As for the 357 Mag, sure it will kill deer and hogs with the proper bullet and shot placement. I have kill a bunch of deer with my Ruger Blackhawk in 357 Mag. But personally I would not go below the 41 Mag, I just like bigger holes.. And seeing's how I reload the 45 Colt, my loads are right up there with my 44 Mag.

As for your 480 and 454 Casull, it is hard to compare dead, dead is dead. But show me where is there not an advantage, kind of hard for anyone to do it. Then you have to throw in you 500 Mag, 500 Linebaugh and the 500 JHR.

Just because you chose the 500 Linebaugh and 500 JHR as you round of choice does not take away anything from the 500 Mag. You always want to insinuate that higher energy means nothing, but you have not proven it doesn't.

If energy means noting, why not just shoot a 45 ACP and forget the 454 Casull, hell the extra energy does not mean shit. Both are the same diameter bullet. That's all you need, a big slow bullet right?...

George, does it seem to you that I've been hooked in some way?? Come on now, it's not that easy even when drinking prodigious amounts of bourbon -- or KoolAid for that matter.......

If those are cubs, they breed 'em awfully large in Alaska!

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:You always want to insinuate that higher energy means nothing, but you have not proven it doesn't.

Nor have you that it does..........

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
On this trip the other 2 hunters in camp were armed with a 338 Win and a 375 H&H. Despite the greater edge in FPE the 475 performed in every way as good and maybe a bit better than the rifles on these large beast.

Just one of many examples of the falicy of the FPE myth, when using it to predict terminal performance.

And how did you reach the conclusion?????
Another one you pulled out of you ass I guess. Lol

quote:

If energy means noting, why not just shoot a 45 ACP and forget the 454 Casull, hell the extra energy does not mean shit. Both are the same diameter bullet. That's all you need, a big slow bullet right?...

The 45 ACP with a 230 grain bullet is not exactly what we would call a BIG slug for calliber and at 960 FPS it acieves 4N (that's Newtons of Force). The 41 Mag with the 175 Silver Tip despite the greater amount of FPE also achieves 4N (Newtons of force) and if you remember the penetration in the Wet News Print test were about equal.. You And George Can not seem to comprehend that it is the applied force and not some mythical FPE that creates the Terminal effect.
The 454 with a 300 grain bullet at 1500 FPS achieves 8.79n (Newtons of Force)
The 480 Ruger with a 410 grain at 1250 FPS achieves 10n Newtons of force and applies this force over a greater area. Despite the FPE advantage to the 454 the 480 is higher on the Ballistics food chain...

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:You always want to insinuate that higher energy means nothing, but you have not proven it doesn't.

Nor have you that it does..........

Ok, back to the drawing board....

But what do you think, don't you think the 45 ACP would make a great big game cartridge??
Slow bullet, .451 diameter, hardly any energy. It should be a Moose killer.... lol
I have been wasting all this powder trying to get more velocity to increase penetration, energy and speed and all I needed to do is use my 45 ACP,,, what was I thinking?????..lol

Now I am going to look for a 500 Short....

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
On this trip the other 2 hunters in camp were armed with a 338 Win and a 375 H&H. Despite the greater edge in FPE the 475 performed in every way as good and maybe a bit better than the rifles on these large beast.

Just one of many examples of the falicy of the FPE myth, when using it to predict terminal performance.

And how did you reach the conclusion?????
Another one you pulled out of you ass I guess. Lol

Easy, by looking at the wound channels and dept of penetration. as well as the way the 475 flattened the game animals. Of coures this foreign to the inexperinced....

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:You always want to insinuate that higher energy means nothing, but you have not proven it doesn't.

Nor have you that it does..........

Ok, back to the drawing board....

But what do you think, don't you think the 45 ACP would make a great big game cartridge??
Slow bullet, .451 diameter, hardly any energy. It should be a Moose killer.... lol
I have been wasting all this powder trying to get more velocity to increase penetration, energy and speed and all I needed to do is use my 45 ACP,,, what was I thinking?????..lol

Now I am going to look for a 500 Short....

You realy are clueless aren't you?

Perhaps you could buy a clue..