Boy, talk about taking things out of context. Do you consider a 230 grain .45 caliber bullet, big? If there's enough case capacity to drive that lil' 400 grainer, then I would say by all means take your .45 acp moose hunting! I do think that both the .460 and .500 Smith are wasting powder........

quote:

Actually I was just lurking and figured I'd troll for JWP. He's such an easy "catch and release" that every once in awhile I like sticking a hook in his mouth (Nice griz cubs and yearling moose you have there, JWP)

Of coures an Alaska Youkon Moose 53" spread would look small to you the inexperienced. Of course you have never lived or hunted Moose in Alaska..

And I am sure that you have no experience with Artic Grizz and know nothing of their size..But hell I only lived and hunted their...

How this other Moose for size





Fleshing a Bear (Grizz)



gearge roof a legend in is on mind, and just a pain in the ass to others..

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

If energy means noting, why not just shoot a 45 ACP and forget the 454 Casull, hell the extra energy does not mean shit. Both are the same diameter bullet. That's all you need, a big slow bullet right?...

The 45 ACP with a 230 grain bullet is not exactly what we would call a BIG slug for calliber and at 960 FPS it acieves 4N (that's Newtons of Force). The 41 Mag with the 175 Silver Tip despite the greater amount of FPE also achieves 4N (Newtons of force) and if you remember the penetration in the Wet News Print test were about equal.. You And George Can not seem to comprehend that it is the applied force and not some mythical FPE that creates the Terminal effect.
The 454 with a 300 grain bullet at 1500 FPS achieves 8.79n (Newtons of Force)
The 480 Ruger with a 410 grain at 1250 FPS achieves 10n Newtons of force and applies this force over a greater area. Despite the FPE advantage to the 454 the 480 is higher on the Ballistics food chain...

So exactly how do you come up with your conclusion that the 480 Ruger is higher on the food chain over the 454 Casull? Is that JWP science or what? You try to compare a 300 gr. bullet to a 410 gr. bullet. Why not same bullet weights and there max capacity's?

I think I have a good concept of applied force, it is you that is having a problem.
So using your Newton's of force, you are saying the 45 ACP is equal to the 41 Mag.. I think you lost your mind....

Okay, I'll play that game. I have hunted with both 400 grain Casull loads and 410 grain .480 loads. I will take the .480 over the .454 EVERY time -- makes a bigger hole!

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Boy, talk about taking things out of context. Do you consider a 230 grain .45 caliber bullet, big? If there's enough case capacity to drive that lil' 400 grainer, then I would say by all means take your .45 acp moose hunting! I do think that both the .460 and .500 Smith are wasting powder........

Is that just your opinion or are you subscribing to the JWP school of ballistics...lol

My 45 ACP was just an example of how stupid your argument sounds to me. I would never use a 45 ACP for anything but man.

If the 460 and 500 Mag's are a waste of power, can the same be said about the 475 and 500 Linebaugh?

You must have a magic number that applies to your guns only, anything bigger than what you have is not needed... Your killing me, I had to pick myself off the floor, I was laughing so hard... I forgot I was talking to the Einstein of handguns....

quote:

I think I have a good concept of applied force, it is you that is having a problem.
So using your Newton's of force, you are saying the 45 ACP is equal to the 41 Mag.. I

No I did not say that a 45 ACP is equal to a 41 Mag I stated that the 2 loads in question were about equal.. Did you not read what I wrote.. The 175 Siver Tip is NOT LOADED TO THE FULL POTENTIAL OF A 41 Mag.. Appareently you fali to grasp that.

With flat point hard cast compaired to flat point hard cast the 480 leaves a larger wound channel than a 454 (again your lack of experience shows)

Again the 300 Grain in a 454 has MORE FPE than the 480 410 grain and FPE is the Alter of YOUR WORSHIP, flawed as it is.


Now back to the uniformed........

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Okay, I'll play that game. I have hunted with both 400 grain Casull loads and 410 grain .480 loads. I will take the .480 over the .454 EVERY time -- makes a bigger hole!

I also like bigger holes, .500 to be exact.
Know we can agree on that one...lol

quote:

Let's be brutally honest here, most of the guys in the woods hunting deer with a pistol don't have a clue about any of the issues we've argued here. If they see it, they assume they can hit and kill it with no consideration of energy, distance, trajectory, nothing.

george i do agree with you on this magority of handgun hunters in woods are not taking time to develope proper skills with handgun for hunting

they test fire gun probally at short distance instead of the expected distance in hunting situation.

Then there are the acomplished hunters that practicr and become effiecant with handgun

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

I think I have a good concept of applied force, it is you that is having a problem.
So using your Newton's of force, you are saying the 45 ACP is equal to the 41 Mag.. I

No I did not say that a 45 ACP is equal to a 41 Mag I stated that the 2 loads in question were about equal.. Did you not read what I wrote.. The 175 Siver Tip is NOT LOADED TO THE FULL POTENTIAL OF A 41 Mag.. Appareently you fali to grasp that.

With flat point hard cast compaired to flat point hard cast the 480 leaves a larger wound channel than a 454 (again your lack of experience shows)

Again the 300 Grain in a 454 has MORE FPE than the 480 410 grain and FPE is the Alter of YOUR WORSHIP, flawed as it is.


Now back to the uniformed........

I said this.
(So using your Newton's of force, you are saying the 45 ACP is equal to the 41 Mag..)

You said this.
(No I did not say that a 45 ACP is equal to a 41 Mag I stated that the 2 loads in question were about equal)

Sounds the same to me...

lol...you are funny, it does not take much to hook a sucker...lol

Einstein? Why do you resort to insulting me? Are your educational inadequacies triggering this defense mechanism? No need to be an asshole. You know, I am a patient man who has been in situations in his life that would give you nightmares, forcing me to keep a cool head no matter what my "feelings" tell me, but I find your tone offensive. You tend to attack when you don't have a good answer. JMHO

Again you fail to grasp and try to play it off as humor the 175 Silver Tip works out 4n as did the +P 45 ACP loads.
Now load the 41 to its potential such as the 170 JHC from BB and the Newtons of force is higher and achieve 5n (Newton of force) and also out pentrates the loads with 4 Newtons.

The 41 with 230 at 1338 FPS achieves 6 Newtons of Force

Again you are not comprehending, ignoring the evidence is not an achievemnet

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Einstein? Why do you resort to insulting me? Are your educational inadequacies triggering this defense mechanism? No need to be an asshole. You know, I am a patient man who has been in situations in his life that would give you nightmares, forcing me to keep a cool head no matter what my "feelings" tell me, but I find your tone offensive. You tend to attack when you don't have a good answer. JMHO

Wow I never thought anyone would get upset being compared to Einstein, and it was said to be funny, but screw it, if you can't take a joke.

JWP it is so easy to confuse you, you don't have a clue about anything. You are so busy quoting others and trying to make yourself look like a big shot.
All I had to do is put energy in one post and I get the wrath of you and Whitworth.

Whitworth this was the whole reason I even posted about energy, just to get you and JWP started again. You wrote.
(I also think that muzzle energy is a poor way to judge a cartridge's effectiveness, because it doesn't tell the whole story)

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Again you fail to grasp and try to play it off as humor the 175 Silver Tip works out 4n as did the +P 45 ACP loads.
Now load the 41 to its potential such as the 170 JHC from BB and the Newtons of force is higher and achieve 5n (Newton of force) and also out pentrates the loads with 4 Newtons.

The 41 with 230 at 1338 FPS achieves 6 Newtons of Force

Again you are not comprehending, ignoring the evidence is not an achievemnet

The only reason you feel everyone else is clueless is, your quoting stuff you really have no concept about and really don't understand...It is called baffle them with bullshit.

Actually Whitworth, I don't mind bantering with you as you seem to give as you get. JWP HOWEVER is a different type of catfish.

If immitation is the sincerest form of flattery, I suppose I should thank JWP about copying my remark about his being a legend in his own mind, but if money talks and bullshit walks, he has to be running by now. I see the "53 inch moose", but the antlers under those two griz AREN'T from that moose. Additionally, with all this smack you're talking about how "experienced a hunter" you are, kindly tell me in what part of Alaska are you allowed to kill TWO grizzlys on a single non-res ticket? In fact, I don't think you can do that on a resident tag. Perhaps both of those AREN'T your bears???

I especially liked the part where you referred to FPE as "mythical". That ain't the only thing mythical in this post. "One who can't change his mind and won't change the subject..." Sir Winston Churchill defining a "fanatic"

Since you seem to like quoting others, here's one I've learned over the years:
"People who tend use quotes of others to validate their own opinions seldom have anything personal to contribute." George Roof, April 25, 2008


FISH ON!!!

If I couldn't take a joke, I wouldn't post here. As far as jwp's hunting experience, you can bet your ass that he has taken more large game than most on the website. Whether you choose to believe that is up to you, but you are truly barking up the wrong tree if you think he is imagining his hunting experience. Yup, I will defend him as unlike many who frequent the internet, he has actually taken LOTS of game and much of it with handguns. The grizz on the left in that photo (stage right) was an unexpected and aggressive visitor on a moose kill -- the .475 Linebaugh punched his ticket.........

So, do you guys think we can do this without making such a stink? And this goes for all of us, myself included.

Oh, and Einstein ain't got nothin' on me........

Thanks Whitworth for "THE REST OF THE STORY". And I don't doubt JWP's accomplishments but if you check, Elmer Keith probably made his accomplishments pale. It was Keith who designed the .357 and then worked up the .44 Mag. I'll bet he's kicking his casket lid to get ahold of the .460 and .500 S&W Mags, but none of that takes away HIS tendency to be blinded by the light of his own accomplishments. I stopped counting my kills when I passed puberty and I'm not much with putting notches on my stocks. I have a game room rather full but it's my private hangout and I don't use it to prove any points. "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take,but by the moments that take our breath away." George Carlin

quote:

Originally
I see the "53 inch moose", but the antlers under those two griz AREN'T from that moose. Additionally, with all this smack you're talking about how "experienced a hunter" you are, kindly tell me in what part of Alaska are you allowed to kill TWO grizzlys on a single non-res ticket?
to contribute." George Roof, April 25, 2008
FISH ON!!!

Again you show your complete ignorance if you don't think that Moose was not 53" wide.

Again you fail to comprehend the written word as I stated in the orignal pst that their were 2 others hunting in camp and no where did I EVER SAY THAT I KILLED BOTH BEARS.. again you are totaly Cluelss..

quote:

I especially liked the part where you referred to FPE as "mythical". That ain't the only thing mythical in this post.

Again you fail to comprehend the written word
Agian the term Mythical refers to the belief that it is FPE tyhat is transfered, when if fact it is the transfer of momentum that is the determining factor in terminal performance...
Again as usual george rejects quotes from science and rejects real word experience, as ignorance often does...

I am glad this thread went off topic. It was getting boring here in the handgun area.

"Off topic" would be an understatement of epic, dare I say biblical, proportions.......

Off topic topic, but exhilerating...

Well ... I'm sure glad I started this thread ... it's sure given you all a chance to drink a single malt and argue about "not much" ... which, of course, gives me my answer.

I think I'll go with a Blackhawk in .45LC, and if possible get the one with a .45ACP cylinder, too. (Why not?)

Deertick, it's a great choice that is lacking nothing! You will not be disappointed!

quote:

Originally posted by Deertick:
Well ... I'm sure glad I started this thread ... it's sure given you all a chance to drink a single malt and argue about "not much" ... which, of course, gives me my answer.

I think I'll go with a Blackhawk in .45LC, and if possible get the one with a .45ACP cylinder, too. (Why not?)

Excellent choice....

What, the single malt or the Blackhawk in .45 Colt?

JWP, you'd make a firebrick look like it had a higher IQ if you talked a bit more. No one said the picture of the moose lying down WASN'T 53 inches. I said the antlers visible by the 2 bears wasn't. And don't tap dance with that "2 hunters in camp" crap. YOU are all posed up like Annie Oakley there with your trusty pistol so anyone would ASSUME the animals you posed with would be YOURS. And then you and Whitworth need to get your stories together. You imply "another hunter" killed the second bear but he says implies that you were put in a situation where you had to shoot it. I'm sure the AK DNR has it sorted out, but the picture is a fake one way or another. You either did or didn't shoot 2 bears but they're obviously cubs (I've shot black bears bigger than that and I just mounted 2 from Vancouver Island almost twice that size) and it is quite conceivable that one would get a bit pissy if his playmate had been dusted.

Now I do have a bit of experience in rocket science and more in jet propulsion. So tell me exactly where I might find the "science" that allows for the "transfer of momentum"? You might be able to CONVERT momentum but when you do, you can only CONVERT it to ENERGY. There is no such thing as TRANSFER of momentum. Since you're so good at quoting, I'm sure you'll supply me with chapter and verse from some REPUTABLE physics or propulsion engineering manual to set me straight on that bit of a troubling issue. Hell, who knows, Mr. Chekov might be able to get warp drive out of that sucker faster with that knowlege.

The horns in that picture are indeed the size dumb ass
You also make a lot of in acurate assumptions as earier you called me a non resident which I clearly was not as I was living in Alaska at the time.. You are the most clueless individual on the net..
To assume that I killed each animal in the picture is totaly clueless..
Me and the other 2




George you realy are that dumb aren't you and in experiened

George, what's the problem now? Where do you come off with the personal attacks? You're stirring it up with things have finally settled down. He did shoot the one on the left as it came in on a moose kill, but I don't know what is in dispute. Was that necessary?

HEE, HEE, I'm having too much fun to say a word!

Whitworth, you must have balls like grapefruits. Where do I come off with a "personal attack". Maybe YOU had better start reading and find out who lit this fire of "personal attacks". Your boy Einstein lit this one if you care to check. I never tried to embellish any bullshit with loading pictures of me as a proud hunter like he did. You give me a publication from any source with a hunter standing over any game that he personally didn't take. That's no random assumption that I made of his shooting those animals. And I'll bet the Alaskan DNR would assume the same thing. Then BOTH of you have been waffling about the real story behind that picture. DID HE KILL BOTH BEARS OR DIDN'T HE?

JWP, you ARE dumber than dirt. "Living in Alaska" doesn't automatically make you a resident but EVEN IF YOU WERE, you still only get one griz tag. (What part of that did you miss or ignore?) As for the moose, WHICH ONE OF THEM UNDER THOSE CUBS IS 53 INCHES? I actually make a living mounting wild animals and I've seen as many moose as you have I'm sure. That was a very good moose in most places that you have on the ground. The antlers under the bear simply doesn't look like the antlers on the downed moose. You simply ARE a legend in your own mind, but trying to baffle someone with bullshit ain't cutting it with me. I'm still looking for your reference on "transferring momentum".

You come into the handgun hunting forum and by your own admission from a previous thread have no handgun hunting experience and yet you poroceed to know it all, even about my residency in Alaska. I had only been a residence about 6 years at the time.
Of course you never post any pictures or add any infomation of relevance to any thread that you post in. All you ever do is blow hard and thump your chest, like a Gorilla

Here george, just for your;



Do something about that Avatar, you're going to blind sommebody...

quote:

The antlers under the bear simply doesn't look like the antlers on the downed moose.

You bumdb ass those are the same horna. Yea you certain prove what you know or as I shoul say don't know...

Whitworth, where is your self-rightous indignation over someone attacking another??? You and JWP got "a thing" going on? LMAO

JWP, let's make no bones about this. I think you're an illiterate clod who's like a Cadillac without an engine: all show and no "go". Perhaps being a playground bully worked for you in the past and on this forum, but YOU don't impress me a damned bit with anything you've said. I admitted to not having a lot of HANDGUN HUNTING experience. That doesn't mean I don't have a helluva lot of handgun SHOOTING experience OR HUNTING experience. I feel I'm just as qualified as you, if not more so, to comment on either of those separate issues. I don't reload and I don't wildcat, but this is a "handgun" forum and the majority of handgunners out there use factory ammo so that certainly doesn't exclude my opinions. I don't festoon this site with my macho pictures standing over dead animals (or wet catalogs with holes in them that even you admit don't prove anything) as I don't have to prove anything to you or to anyone else. And you're so damned proud of that moose, I'm only SUPPOSING that you don't want to tell us the real story behind the bears. And I suppose hell will freeze over before I find out how you transfer momentum and disprove that "myth". Now there's the challenge spelled out in simple English: put up or shut up.

You are a liar, you continual thump your chest and try to bully others with your inaccurate BS, trying to prove that you know it all when if fact you know nothing.
Yea, you are definately trying to prove something without a doubt and you are. The only problem is that the proof that you are providing is not a very positive potrait of you..

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
HEE, HEE, I'm having too much fun to say a word!

I`m just lurking with you bfr!!!!!

I can't believe I'm still reading this.

Honestly, thanks for the information ... but with each email-update to this thread, I think there may be something of substance about the original topic.

Again, though, thanks for the replies ... I'm going shopping.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
Whitworth, where is your self-rightous indignation over someone attacking another??? You and JWP got "a thing" going on? LMAO

JWP, let's make no bones about this. I think you're an illiterate clod who's like a Cadillac without an engine: all show and no "go". Perhaps being a playground bully worked for you in the past and on this forum, but YOU don't impress me a damned bit with anything you've said. I admitted to not having a lot of HANDGUN HUNTING experience. That doesn't mean I don't have a helluva lot of handgun SHOOTING experience OR HUNTING experience. I feel I'm just as qualified as you, if not more so, to comment on either of those separate issues. I don't reload and I don't wildcat, but this is a "handgun" forum and the majority of handgunners out there use factory ammo so that certainly doesn't exclude my opinions. I don't festoon this site with my macho pictures standing over dead animals (or wet catalogs with holes in them that even you admit don't prove anything) as I don't have to prove anything to you or to anyone else. And you're so damned proud of that moose, I'm only SUPPOSING that you don't want to tell us the real story behind the bears. And I suppose hell will freeze over before I find out how you transfer momentum and disprove that "myth". Now there's the challenge spelled out in simple English: put up or shut up.

Well, it's time I waded into this cesspool.

This thread is closed.

I suggest if you guys can't discuss things without personally attacking each other you find another playground to do it in.

I don't intend to remind you guys of this a second time.

Don