SR4759:

As I have said raw data, Please read my lips RAW DATA ! pure and simple, the two graphs are not the same, was not intended to be, nor statistical deciept ! ( because I did not treat any data to any statistical analysis )

Fact is the cases do not all weigh the same, there is variance, nor are their capacities! Pure and simple..... if you wish to treat the data to statistical analysis we can do so !

Now

Seeing as some here love to tout the great Creighton Audette ( and so they should as he was a accomplished match shooter and most astute recorder of useful data) I will do the same:

American Rifleman January 1982: Mr Audette made a measuring device which he used to measure squareness of the mouth and case wall thickness, he selected his match brass on the above two criteria. As he shows by sectioning cases , cases are not created equal, not as far as wall thickness goes at least ! And that is good enough for me!

quote:

R, if you feel uncomfortable running PSIs at 65,000, then don't. But, don't exaggerate the risk at 65,000 PSI

I never stated that there was a risk except for ruining your action, brass and barrel prematurely.

I load for accuracy and sometimes that is close to max. Usually below.

If a load is 65K PSI that only gives you 3-4 loads in your brass before they won't even hold a primer, I'm sure none of mine are.

You never told us the advantages of loading to the point where your primers fall out after 3 loads.

Well?

Antelope Sniper,

I cannot answer your question definitively, as I suspect it would vary from cartridge to cartridge, add to which we have the imponderables of different makes and brands of powders. Lab testing is required and statistical analysis need to be done to get say a 99% confidence level before we can really make statements that are cast in stone.

In limited tests I conducted with standard vs. magnum primers, I found and increase in velocity of 94 fps more in a given load. Now that may be tarnished by individual shot-to-shot variation and the inherent error level of the equipment measuring the velocity. This was an observation on a particular set of circumstances, and so I cannot state that as a truism.

However, here is a short summary of the A-Square test of primers in the 7 mm Rem Mag, as published in "Handloader" magazine:

Load:

160 grain Sierra Boat-tail bullet; 66.0 grains of Hodgdon H-4831 and Winchester cases.

Primers used:

Winchester WLRM (Magnum) ---- 3045 fps, 67,600 psi

Winchester WLR (Standard) ----- 3024 fps, 64,400 psi

Federal 215 (Magnum) ----------- 3036 fps, 61,400 psi

CCI 250 (Magnum) --------------- 3039 fps, 61,500 psi

Remington 9½ M (Magnum) ----- 3041 fps, 59,300 psi

CCI 200 (Standard) -------------- 3011 fps, 54,800 psi

If this is anything to go by, comparing the CCI 200 with CCI250, we have a substantial difference of 6,700 psi - 61,500 psi vs. 54,800 psi, or to put it in relative terms the magnum primer yielded 12%, more pressure, but velocity is a mere 28 fps more or 0.9%. It seems the pressure spike is exacerbated (as in peak pressure) in that short burst of the ignition process. If we look at the Winchester primers the difference between standard an magnum is much smaller - only 3, 200 psi versus a difference of 6,700 psi with the CCI primers. Magnum primers burn hotter and longer than standard primers, so they raise the pressure much higher but will only increase the velocity marginally which is for all intents and purposes negligible.

Based on the above, the difference between using standard and magnum primers should be approached with caution. It is interesting to note that the Winchester standard primer is hotter than other brands of magnum primers. So the definition of standard vs. magnum does not mean a lot the way most non suspecting shooters would interpret the difference.

I use Federal 215M Match primers in my 300 H&H and I am getting very good results. In all the pressure tests that have been done, Fed 215 magnum primers are the coolest magnum primers you can use, and WLRM primers the hottest. You can safely switch from standard primers to Fed 215 magum without changing the pressure curve a great deal as long as you are not at the max load for the load with the standard primers. In my smaller cased cartridges like the 7x57 and the 9,3x62 I use CCI200.

There is also a school of thought that in some cartridges standard primers are more accurate than magnum primers as they postulate that the more powerful primer moves the bullet forward before the powder ignites. The priming compound itself is an explosive intended to be detonated by percussion. (It can also be detonated by heat or flame.) There is typically less than one grain of priming compound in even the hottest primers. In contrast, a powder is a burning propellant and not an explosive like a primer.

Generalities:

Magnum primers are intended to ignite a large volume of powder, or when you're using a slow burning powder that's difficult to ignite. In very cold climates like in temperatures below 20 degrees F, one needs a hotter ignition than with regular primers. As a rule of thumb I reserve magnum primers when I exceed 60 grains of extruded powder and always use magnum primers to ignite ball powders that are harder to ignite. Igniting spherical powders in very cold weather with a magnum primer is highly recommend for better ignition to take place.

Benchrest primers are made more uniformly and carefully inspected whereas regular primers are mass produced and not inspected individually.

Varmint hunters and extreme long range shooters usually prefer benchrest primers for their uniformity, whereas hunting rifles at practical hunting ranges one would not notice the slight advantage.

Also, the cup material of different brands of primers are not equally hard - CCI primers are known to be hard and PMP primers even harder as they are thicker, whereas Federal primers have the softest cup. And to this I might add that some older military Mauser actions may have weak springs driving the firing pin that can cause misfires. Also, a primer can also fail because of contamination, or being crushed in the seating process, or not being seated to the bottom the primer pocket. Seat your primers below flush with the case head as this insures that the anvil is properly pressed against the priming compound for reliable ignition.

Reaming out a primer flash hole too big can also change the dynamics of ignition and thus pressure readings.

Warrior

Thanks Warrior. Nice writeup. I wasn't looking for a definitive answer, just your best. The example you provided could serve as a very useful guideline.

Two of my goto primers are CCI200, and WMRP, and I shoot alot of H4831. I always knew there was a difference in pressure between the two, but I was expecting something in the 3-6k range. It's interesting that in this example, the difference is closer to a 10k PSI difference.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
SR4759:

As I have said raw data, Please read my lips RAW DATA ! pure and simple, the two graphs are not the same, was not intended to be, nor statistical deciept ! ( because I did not treat any data to any statistical analysis )

Fact is the cases do not all weigh the same, there is variance, nor are their capacities! Pure and simple..... if you wish to treat the data to statistical analysis we can do so !

Now

Seeing as some here love to tout the great Creighton Audette ( and so they should as he was a accomplished match shooter and most astute recorder of useful data) I will do the same:

American Rifleman January 1982: Mr Audette made a measuring device which he used to measure squareness of the mouth and case wall thickness, he selected his match brass on the above two criteria. As he shows by sectioning cases , cases are not created equal, not as far as wall thickness goes at least ! And that is good enough for me!

ALF,
Tell us what are the methods you use to sort your brass for ordinary shooting?

SR 4795:

I dont bother to sort them, I just prep and shoot them !

I dont care about high pressure when loading because I seldom if ever shoot high loads that are maxed out, have no need for it !

What I do though is I never mix cases so that I dont know how many loads have gone through a batch, if I start with a batch of 100 or 50 they are kept apart in the same box so that all are loaded the same amount of times.

The only reason I posted to data was to show that the dictums of always reliable, never fail or totally repeatable cannot exist when it comes to cases as some claim !

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
The only reason I posted to data was to show that the dictums of always reliable, never fail or totally repeatable cannot exist when it comes to cases as some claim !

Actually, I agree that "alf" could NEVER get "always reliable, never fail, or totally repeatable" data.

However, ANYONE else can(including Rookies and Beginners), if they just follow the proper Procedure.

MATCH KINGS ARE NOT HUNTING BULLETS!!!!!!!



oops wrong thread.


------------------------------

Just remember rifles are individuals. Any data computed on paper or obtained in another rifle can only be considered a close guess at best.

Change ANY of the components or the temperature too much and its a new subject.


----------------------------------

quote:

MATCH KINGS ARE NOT HUNTING BULLETS!!!!!!!

They sure do a great job killing Prairie dogs.

I'm not sure why you choose this thread to try and Hijack, but if you wanted to start a new one with that comment, I"m sure you would have 10 pages of comments in not time. If you have comments on how MK's effect pressure, this is a good place for them. Otherwise the discussion probably deserves it's own thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:

quote:

MATCH KINGS ARE NOT HUNTING BULLETS!!!!!!!

They sure do a great job killing Prairie dogs.

I'm not sure why you choose this thread to try and Hijack, but if you wanted to start a new one with that comment, I"m sure you would have 10 pages of comments in not time. If you have comments on how MK's effect pressure, this is a good place for them. Otherwise the discussion probably deserves it's own thread.

Actually the matchking hunting bullet thread went 100+ pages. So whenever I see a thread going out of control like this one I like to screw with it. Besides I also put in my two cents about pressure as well.

quote:

Actually the matchking hunting bullet thread went 100+ pages.

OH.

Glad I missed it.

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
MATCH KINGS ARE NOT HUNTING BULLETS!!!!!!!

oops wrong thread. ...

quote:

However, ANYONE else can(including Rookies and Beginners), if they just follow the proper Procedure.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

quote:

However, ANYONE else can(including Rookies and Beginners), if they just follow the proper Procedure.

Welllllll....., I admit I was WRONGO!!!!! warrior couldn't do it either.

Correct, I would not waste my time with PRE and CHE; there are too many IF's and BUT's !!!!

For more than 20 years of reloading I have had no need to bother about it to assist me, and I am quite positive that I would not need it during the next 20.

Warrior

quote:

Correct, I would not waste my time with PRE and CHE; there are too many IF'S Fantasis and BUT's Fairy Tales!!!!

There you go Warrior, fixed it for you.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:

quote:

Correct, I would not waste my time with PRE and CHE; there are too many IF'S Fantasis and BUT's Fairy Tales!!!!

There you go Warrior, fixed it for you.