The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Re: 30/06, 180 grain Bullet 2900 fps? Published PGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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HC, I hereby retract the "pressure/" part of my "unrequested appraisal". Your war with Denton led me to misintrepret one of your earlier comments. My apologies. I still think your all wet on PRE/CHE though.  I approved this unrequested comment. | ||
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Clark... I'm on a job in Maine at the moment. I really did understand your intent, and your joke. And it brought a smile. As far as pressure and velocity goes, it amazes me how there can be so much disagreement over a fairly simple relationship between pressure and speed. Force on the back of the bullet is pressure x area. Area is constant, and can be transferred outside the integral sign. The muzzle speed is the net force, (PxA), minus friction, integrated over time. It's muzzle speed, not muzzle velocity, because velocity is a vector, and speed is a scalar. Normally, we only specify the magnitude of "muzzle velocity", so it's speed (magnitude only), not velocity (requires both speed and a direction). | |||
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Heya Denton, where in Maine? | |||
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Doing work for a client in Portland, ME. It's a very enjoyable place. | |||
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If you can, Acadia NP is a worthwhile destination... Maine is sure pretty in the fall! | |||
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Quote:Hey DD, No appologies needed. denton who? Quote:Glad to see you got this one "Approved". If you ever get over this way, I'll be glad to show you how easy and accurately good old PRE/CHE works. Of course, "easy and accurately" is what you should expect from the very best Pressure Indicators available to Reloaders.  HSGS = Reloader's Pyrite(aka Fool's Gold) | |||
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Quote: I still do not understand Sapper06's equation [I have a cold, when I recover, I will likely be just as slow] but I think we can upgrade to: Quote: From: http://www.mindspring.com/~sfaber1/coppth.htm My father tells me that the energy of a gas is proportional to the mass times the temperature. I can see an ocean of my own ignorance here. | |||
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Clark, Be careful or you will let the secret out of the bag. The secret being that this (the act of propelling a projectile from a closed barrel by burning a solid which becomes an expanding gas) is a thermodynamic expansion, therefore it must adhere to the First Law of Thermodynamics. ASS_CLOWN | |||
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Question is HAS anyone tried it by working up and saw the results. Remember gang, that the question of this was originally raised by one of the Australian guys having read it in an article published in one of the Gun Rags, by Sam Fadala. So I think in our world of too many lawyers, all too ready to sue anyone for anything to make a buck, that the publishers took the time to check it out. As for me, before we spout out yea or nay, someone should maybe take the time to test it if they have doubts. If they fear it is too hot a load, work up like any sane person would want to. Arguing over published data, is something constantly people do on this forum . However it is fewer who get out and check out something they question, yet many are ready to jump at something to engage in an argument over. Well, I have loaded up some of this load after picking up some Sierra Bullets and will go out and personally chronograph it and see what I get for results. Then I have proof, for me. However I don't doubt it. People all too often look at velocities published in those manuals that they hold as gospel, and never notice the pressures listed. The same guys are questioning it, because it is different than they saw in the past "10 manuals". If you load for a 6.5 x 55 and 7 x 57 especially, you will notice velocities migrate up and down from manual to manual even by the same companies. Some guys need to get out of the armchair and go out and get THEIR OWN RESULTS, since they are so quick to question or engage in an argument at the drop of a hat on the subject. Cheers to all seafire | |||
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Dan, thanks for speaking up Mate! If one notices in the Hodgdon manual, that the powder is H 4350, but that load is with a Sierra Boattail bullet. It does list several other brands of 180 grain bullets, that show less velocity and a lighter charge weight. However, as someone pointed out the difference in load bearing surfaces, which is an important point if one wants to take a "walk on the wild side" with velocity experimentation. People do need to read some of the pressures listed also, and commonly a lot of people don't. I can remember when playing with H 4831 SC, some people were telling me my results were nuts. However after re looking at the load manual, some common loads were only registering about 44,000 CUPS, with the common 2700 fps velocities. As always, I think Ray Atkinson, has the most sane response to this, if you want more velocity and own a bigger gun, use it. 200 fps is not always going to make or break the bank in the field. However for some guy who only owns an 06 and may desire the extra 200 fps for whatever his reasons are, the info was made available and HE should check it out to see if his gun gave the same results. Rifles are all different. Playing with my 338/06 this past week, the velocities I get with 225 grain loads and 250 grain loads are 100 to 150 fps over what other people tell me they get. The 200 grain loads I played with gave me 100 fps LESS than what they should have. However they were very accurate and so life is 'fat dumb and happy' even at 100 fps less. A lot of guys need to spend more time at the load bench, at the range and in a relationship with a chronograph, or spend more time being quiet on the subject. Cheers seafire PS: Daniel, look forward to your test results, and thanks for taking the time to do them and publish them on line. seafire g'day | |||
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Yep, there's no way of telling if you don't try it yourself. I use IMR4831 all of the time in my 300 and 7 Mags but I'm going to buy some H4831sc and try it out myself. Who knows, maybe with that I will be able to get near the velocity that all of the manuals and everyone else on the net gets. I swear that I have the worst luck with rifles, everyone of mine is slower than everyone on the net has.  | |||
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Quote: Daniel, now don't go confusing Seafire with facts. He's not seeing pressure signs in his rifle so it must be safe, right? WRONG... many rifles will give no sign of what are the commonly accepted signs of excessive pressure until well over 70,000 PSI. All cartridges are a know quantity. Their safe velocities are well established. 2,700-2,780 (ish) fps for a 180 grain bullet in the 30-06 (22" bbl) is the well known high water mark... some people think they're special while my theory is they're just foolish. | |||
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1. Standard list of Hot Core fabrications, unsupported by any known facts or credible references--- 1.1. Mounting a strain gage on a rifle will spoil the accuracy. 1.2. You need a CMM to measure the ID and OD of a chamber. 1.3. Mounting a strain gage will rust your rifle. 1.4. Strain gage systems cannot be calibrated, and the results are just a guess. 1.5. PRE is completely repeatable and reliable. 1.6. PRE is calibrated. 1.7. Claims to have 20 years of experience with strain gages. 1.8. Claims that strain gages don�t work outside a laboratory. 2. Standard list of Hot Core self-contradictions� 2.1. Claims that you can, and that you cannot use factory ammunition as a maximum pressure reference. 2.2. Claims that you need SAAMI standard ammunition to calibrate a strain gage, but that you don�t need it to calibrate PRE. 2.3. Claims that you cannot use chamber dimensions to calibrate a strain gage, but that you can use brass dimensions to calibrate PRE. 2.4. Claims that he gets four significant digits measuring brass with a micrometer, but the rest of us can�t get three when measuring a chamber. 3. Hot Core logical fallacies/half truths-- 3.1 Hot Core can teach anyone to use a micrometer in five minutes, and it is a precise instrument. Since it is a precision instrument, and easy to use, it follows that the dimensions of a brass casing accurately and precisely reflect the pressure of a load. 4. Most childish Hot Core behavior� 4.1. Resorts to name calling when things aren�t going his way. 5. Actual experiment says� 5.1. Strain gage systems are very repeatable, and the one I have tested is on a par with equipment currently in use by people who write reloading books. Two cartridges subjected to the same peak pressure give you very close to the same peak reading, routinely. 5.2. Strain gage systems are easily calibrated, and they routinely produce peak pressure readings that correspond with the expected pressures of commercial ammunition. 5.3. PRE and CHE are very non-repeatable. Two cases subjected to the same pressure produce the same dimension only if you are very lucky. 5.4. Details of how to replicate my experiment have been posted, for anyone who cares to try it. You can love it, or you can hate it. The data don�t care. 6. Ken Waters actually said� 6.1. PRE is inferior to strain gages and to CUP. 6.2. PRE is a relative system only. (Relative system = not calibrated.) 6.3. Speaking of PRE, �,,,no such system of judging pressures can reveal the actual pressure in pounds per square inch or copper units of pressure.� Check the September, 2004 Varmint Hunter Magazine, page 190 for a formal experiment comparing strain gages, PRE and CHE. | |||
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Quote:Hey Dan, Let me help you understand where I'm coming from. At one point in my life many years ago, I believed rifles worked very similar to the way you are describing it. Then education and experience came along and changed my concept of how it all works. If you choose not to believe what I'm saying, that is fine by me. At some point down the road you may get to Test Loads in enough different rifles chambered for the same cartridge to change your mind as well. Quote:Your sample size(number of rifles you have tested in your career) is just too small for you to have seen the problem. --- Oh yes, I see you are using a Home Strain Gauge System. If your's has the ability to Print the graph of the Pressure Envelope, do so. Then compare it to other Loads generated with different Powders and it will be easier for you to see what I'm saying. Of course, NEVER rely on the data from one of the HSGS devices as they are all Full-of-Beans.Feel free to quote me on this before CDH gets to chuckling tooooooo much: HSGS=Reloaders Pyrite(aka Fool's Gold) | |||
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BRAD you took the words right out my mouth....and i agree ...THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH VELOCITY EQUALS PRESSURE AND PRESSURE EQUALS VELOCITY And the fact is one may be above 70,000 psi and still not have extraction problems , have good accuracey etc etc due to smooth chambers and good brass i have loaded the 180 nosler with 60 gn of H 4350 and IMR 4350 in my 06 and got velocities of 2925 with smooth extraction good accuracey etc etc yet by my pressure gun i would have been in the region of 70-75,000 psi any way in the comming mounths i will post pressure data useing the following powders H 4350 , IMR 4350 , R 19 ,NORMA 204 , H 4831 S/C , R 22 , NORMA MRP , VV 560 , WIN WXR ,with the 180 gn nosler partition i will also pressure test the barnes tsx 180 gn with H 4350 and WXR And last i will test a few 200 gn proj with a few of the slow burners regards daniel | |||
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Well Brad: Keeping this cordial, instead of referring to me as a fool ( which I don't consider cordial) I'd like to hear your side of why then a Gun Magazine which does have to be concerned with Lawyers and Sam Fadala has to have some sort of concern about his reputation, would make reference to the load, especially since it raises the performance standards on the 30/06 considerably, without being awfully sure of what they would be publishing? YOU made no indications that YOU have personally done any testing on this. So can I safely assume that you are just dictating stuff you have read? Daniel did not indicate that he has done these tests with the bullet mentioned. So don't you think it is a little on the juevenile side to be calling people fools, when you have not personally tested anything and did not wait for some one to test it that has access to testing equipment, or are you just personally gifted and just know this sort of stuff? This forum seems to have a real abundance of critics, who don't personally test what they criticize. So they have no personal point of reference. They are just going on what they hear, or read or their little mind tells them is gospel. Sounds like a John Kerry sort of thing to me. I am sure you will grace us for your reasonings. As far as being a fool, well I am not an expert from Bozeman Montana, so what do I know? I just started shooting and handloading last week, so all of this must be new to me. Give some hard core test results you have accomplished! I do! seafire | |||
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Dan, At least you put your money where your mouth is; I respect that and look forward to the results. You also had emailed me a long time ago about the testing of the 200 grain bullets in an 06 and I sent you the results I had, but I never heard back from the test results that you achieved if you did them. Also note when you do your testing, that the information published was for a Sierra 180 grain bullet. We all know that due to load bearing surface two bullet weights can have significantly different pressures. And if my firearm is running at 70,000 psi and functions fine, then it is my personal choice to use it. I could care less, as someone asked a question a while ago and I merely came across the data and referenced it to the group. My opinion, isn't that an interesting point. Personally I am in the field this season in the morning with a rifle loaded with Blue Dot powder and shooting an 87 grain bullet at 2800 fps. It is all I need for a 100 lb black tail deer. When I go out Elk hunting next week, I will carry a 7 x 57 with a 160 grain bullet doing about 2500 fps and a 338/06 with a load doing 2500 fps. So I don't think I need 2900 plus fps out of a 30/06. YOU guys have gripes call up Hodgdon, they published it, not me. I just referenced it, after someone asked about it, so I shared with the group. I will test it for my own curiosity and there it will set. If that makes me a fool in the eyes of some guy from Bozoman Montana, then so be it. Like I could really care. He is probably a transplant anyway, Most people in Montana who are natives know what manners are. I hope you publish your results, and thanks for doing them. seafire | |||
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Quote: Apparently youve been working overtime to compile such a list. Better off getting out and doing some shooting. | |||
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Actually, it's a great time saver. I simply saved it once, when replying to some of his statements, and have been using it ever since. It covers practically all of his well-known responses. If he generates a new response that is unsupported, self contradictory, or contrary to experimental data, I just add it to the list and use it next time. | |||
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Well Said Western Hunter! seafire | |||
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Quote: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!  Oh yes they do! Ever hear of the Chronos with 3 skyscreens? There is a reason for that Seafire... | |||
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Quote: THANK YOU AL FRANKEN!!!! good point DigDan! seafire | |||
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My earlier statement about integration wasn't complete. Sorry guys... experienced a brain fade. The point is, you can derive muzzle speed as a function of pressure from basic formulas from Halliday and Resnick (used to be the most common college physics text). There is no point in arguing about it... the applicable formulas have been around since shortly after Isaac Newton derived the Calculus. Acceleration can be found from force and mass, and speed can be found by integrating acceleration. You can integrate by time, and get speed, or you can get work, which is numerically equal to energy, from the basic gas laws, and solve the energy equation for speed. | |||
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I have the book "30-06 - A handloaders odyssey", and the author has 58g of H4350 giving 2755fps and pressure 56,800psi with the 180grain nosler partition. M98 (daniel) is getting 63,000psi and 2810fps with 58g of H4350. I think its safe to say that most guns shouldn't exceed the 2800fps mark with this bullet and this powder. The charge weight is the secondary factor here. | |||
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I a glad to help. I noticed this when the books first came out, but I didn't remember it till I saw this thread. I had to join the site quick before someone used the data | |||
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I've loaded the -06 with 58gr of H4350 and 180gr Speer Mag Tips in Rem Ni plated brass that had been fired once previously. My Pro Chrony at 5 yards from muzzle indicated they're traveling at an average of 2900fps from my Savage 111. That recording was with four rounds: first two were @ 2911, third @ 2898 and forth @ 2879. I've shot ten of them in total and plan to break down the remaining 10. One of the rounds blew out its primer. I think 57.5 is max reliable for my rifle, plenty good for black bear. Accuracy was good with average group at 1.03". 2/9/04 Lyttle Creek Range. Temp 65F, Wind 10-15 gusting 20 (estimated) from 11 O'Clock. Bill | |||
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Quote: Not period. Fear and ignorance. Safe implies risk is involved. Those who know more, have less risk. Some know that their gun is stronger than the brass and work up until the brass fails and work back down. Some live in a world of fear and ignorance and follow the load book like they are very near the limit of their modern bolt rifle. Everyone starts out with load books and obeying them. Some progress to the next level and develop their own loads. Part of ignorance can be thinking everyone else is just as ignorant. Those suffering from this fear and ignorance need to work up an overload until the bolt jams, pound the bolt open, look at the brass, and do it again and again 1,000 times if needed until the fear and ignorance is gone. Once the fear and ignorance is gone, the load book is only a starting point for better loads. Then quotes like the one above will look like "The earth is flat." -- A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian. | |||
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Clark, I don't think the conversation has been wasted, at all. As we've discussed, some of my views of changed, and I've enjoyed our exchanges. You have contributed to my understanding, and I appreciate that. There is still one point that I think separates us. There is a fairly well established general notion in the log S vs. log N curves, where S is the strain applied to an object, and N is the number of times that the stress is applied. The curve plots the N required for 50% of the objects to fail. In log-log space, the curve tends to be linear. In linear space, it says that as the applied S increases, the N to failure drops exponentially. A little decrease in the magnitude of S dramatically improves N. If you routinely run your gun at 70,000 PSI, the chances of it blowing up in your face are possibly 10X what they are at 60,000 PSI, but still extremely slim. What you will see, though, is premature aging of your firearm, short brass life, and stuck cases. In my mind, the SAAMI specifications don't specify the point where your gun is going to blow up on the first shot. Far from it. They specify some knowledgeable persons's estimate of the economical and pleasant operating point for the firearm. No, I don't fear pressure. But I do want to manage my pressure in a way to give me what I want... zippy rounds that hit the target, and reasonable operating cost and convenience. Perhaps you'll feel better to know that the OD of my 8mm Mauser is only .990", and I intend to run it at about 58 KPSI. | |||
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Clark; You sound like someone that could answer a question that has been bothering me; Are you discussing metal fatigue as it relates to firearms failure?. It was my understanding (strengh of materials class long, long time ago) thet there had to be a reversal of stress to cause metal fatigue. I shoot a few really old firearms and wonder about this sort of thing. Thank You! | |||
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Quote: Well said... metal fatigue is a funny thing and leads to all sorts of unexpected and inconvenient things like losing fuselage parts in mid air. | |||
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One of the fatigue theories uses reversals as a predicator of life. A reversal does not have to happen for fatigue to happen. What must happen is a change in the state of stress or strain, depending on the theory you are applying to the situation. Few things in life show " totally reversed" loading situations. What most products show is a loading cycle where they reach some stress level for a period of time, then change to a different level, be it up or down. Additionally, all fatigue models assume the presence of an internal flaw or surface crack. Whether or not this is true does not matter. All the models are statistically based any way. One must also remember that the Goodman/Modified Goodman/ Soderberg models are only good for steels to. As an aside, the Nosler manual, as correctly stated before, list a 180 bullet at 2872 fps. This in no way exceeds SAAMI spec. If you do not believe me call 541-382-3921 and ask for Mike Harris. One more thing. Velocity is proportional to pressure, it does not = pressure. You have to look at the flow work produced by the round. For those who don't know, flow work is the pressure integrated with respect to volume multiplied by the volume integrated with respect to pressure. This is thermo 101. I have corresponded with Clark many times concerning the development of high pressure loads. Clark is in no way irresponsible or dangerous. He is an advanced hangloader in the truest sense of the word. Last thoughts; 2900 fps in an 06 is easy to reach and stay within SAAMI spec, SAAMI is a manufacures spec and may or may not apply to a hanloader. | |||
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Quote:Those suffering from this fear and ignorance need to work up an overload until the bolt jams, pound the bolt open, look at the brass, and do it again and again 1,000 times if needed until the fear and ignorance is gone. Once the fear and ignorance is gone, the load book is only a starting point for better loads. Then quotes like the one above will look like "The earth is flat." Been lurking on this thread, but must "chime in on this post........For me, pounding a bolt open because of an overload, results in an immediate loss of ignorance, and a giant increase in fear........Overloading a rifle, severely, 1000 times, will probably result in a massive increase in ignorance for the user, due to large parts of ones frontal brain lobes vanishing, when said rifle disintegrates!!!!!!! Oh, ummm, overloading hardly ever results in, "better loads"...... And Sapper......Overloading will, indeed, change the stress level of a firearm......And that level will most assuredly be higher.........Grant. | |||
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Oldmodel70 What are you talking about??? I never said anything about overloading a rifle, which you probably could not define anyway! I was commenting on the multiple theories of fatigue and relating how pressure relates to velocity in a firearm. Some of us are satisfied with driving our cars at legal limits, no where near the capability limits of the vehicle, however, some people prefer to find out where the limit exist. We typically admire those people, and even pay them large amounts of money and will even wait for hours just so they can sign there name to a piece of paper for us. However, when it comes to the pursuit of pushing a firearm to its limit, suddenly these people are thought of as dangerous and irresponsible. Why the double standard? Is everbody equating those who would develop high pressure loads to criminal type street racers, instead of professional drivers, mechanics, engineers, and enthusiast who participate in sanctioned races on tracks? | |||
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Quote:Factually, that is a a totally incorrect and therefore a very misleading statement. Velocity is measured in fps and Pressure is measured in psi or cup for us reloaders. To equate the two (V & P) in any comparative way is wrong. Quote:Well, you are 1/3 correct this time. There are actually 3 things that could be happening with V held as a constant; 1. You may have lower Pressure than you think. 2. You may have the same Pressure that you think it is. 3. You may have higher Pressure than you think.. Due to all the variabilities between firearms, from the cartridge components to the actual manufacturing dimensions, tolerances and finishes, it is just not reality to imagine that when one of firearm is at a specific Pressure, it will always mean the Velocity is an exact value. Quote:If they know what they are talking about, they will agree with the above. If you ever hear one claim V=P, smile, delete any info received from him and move away at a rapid pace. Quote:And wrong - again, due to the above. That doesn't mean a chronograph is totally useless, since it can provide one more Pressure indicator, but it has a problem. The problem is they can be misleading to beginners and obviously a lot of folks who do not consider themselves beginners. And they are misleading because of the 3 things above. What this leads to is someone picking an arbitrary Velocity from a Manual and watching for it to appear on the chronograph. When it doesn't appear, many just keep cramming in powder until they get to that arbitrary Velocity. And the Pressure may actually be Low, be at the guessed at value, or Higher. --- The good part is (as Clark has adroitly pointed out) there is generally enough Safety Margin built into our modern firearms to handle it irregardless. Which brings us back to: HSGS = Reloader's Pyrite(aka Fool's Gold) | |||
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Denton, First let me say, that I do not mean to insult you when I say, "fear and ignorance", as I believe you are probably generally brave and intelligent, but we all have fears and ignorance that holds us back. I am comming down foul on the "strain gauge or load book..period" statement, and not you. I think that there is a relationship between metal fatigue and the proof loads. The SAAMI proofs 1.3 to 1.4 times the working pressure should protect the measure that the rifle is good for thousands of rounds. If I am going to shoot proof like loads as a matter of course, I should proof the proof loads with something higher. AR's contributor JonA posted this to help me with my ignorance on metal fatigue and overloads, he was analyzing his Rem700 bolt.:  What I try to do is measure the headspace after challenging a rifle with hot loads. I want to see if there is any set back of the lugs. So far, I have never found any. As far as bursting the chamber goes, as you can see from the math in the above post, there is not much chance of that. With pistols that have chamber walls .040" or .050" thick, I have split a chamber. Oldmodel70, As far as my frontal lobes vanishing goes, I have been hurt in football, pole vaulting, bar tending, roofing, tree topping, mountain climbing, motorcycle racing, riding in a car, and a couple months ago - mountain biking. But never with 40 calibers and thousands of overload work ups to see what happens, have I been hurt. I suggest you take stock of what you know, what you don't know, and what makes you think you know it. Then try to weed out you self gratifying fantasies, and you will get closer to the truth. Mike, er Sapper06, We can see your picture on page 5 of "Nosler 5th" 2002. -- A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian. | |||
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quote: SeaFire is predisposed to pushing the envelope and apparently will accept anyting written on a page as gospel if it supports his fantasies. That's how biases work. I didn't NEED to call Hodgdon to know that was a typo as my experience already told me it was and I'm not under the delusion/illusion that a 30-06 with anyting short of a 27" barrel will do 2,900 fps with a 180 and a safe powder charge of anything currently found on what we call earth (aka, the real world). Well Bradley, as you call pushing the envelope, I prefer to call it knowing the parameters of my rifle. I am impressed that you don't need to call Hodgdon to verify something is a typo. Must be that nice to Be so full of one's self. What was that Mac Davis song? " OH Lord its hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way, Can't wait to look in the mirror, Cause I get better looking each day....." Of course you have the availability of Pixie Dust as an Option on your rifle barrels. Does that come with a color coordinated PINK stock, and Magenta recoil pad? Seafire could really care less what velocity something gets. He spends more time testing downloads than he ever spends testing the upper limits. Just keep paying attention to your Dick Tracy Secret Decoder Ring, and I will find out my info at the range and the load bench. Do you actually hand load, or do you get your ammo at WalMart and just buy a lot of reload manuals to portray an illusion/delusion you actually have a clue what you are talking about? Pure interest on my part. seafire | |||
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Well, I don't know if it's more polite here than the Ignorance Crater, but it is more interesting. I'm seeing learned folks argue a point that isn't the point as far as I'm concerned. At least a few of you anyway. I haven't the slightest doubt the average gun will handle more than the SAAMI spec. pressure now and again. They probably do it with factory ammo now and again. I know I've pushed the limits a few times, probably with more magnitude that I care to know about. At least that's the way I understand "proofs" and statistics, SD etc. ad nauseum. I don't doubt some of them will handle high overloads a lot. What I do know is there isn't any free lunch in this business. Jack up the pressures, shorten the life of your barrel. Jack 'em up high enough and both barrel and action may have a very short life. There is a direct inverse relationship there that can be reduced to numbers I'm sure. I admire test pilots and note they have a lot of telemetry working in their behalf...and an ejection seat. Very few handloaders have that kind of support. Clark, first time I read some of your posts at www.Loadyourown.com I nearly crapped! "Who is this lunatic?", I asked myself. Given a bit of time and reading I've come to respect your knowledge of interior ballistics a fair bit, but it doesn't have diddle to do with all the guns you've "re-designed" with your experiments. I think your posted graph regarding the Model 700 illustrates the point(s) nicely. Hot Core, You know some stuff too, but I think you need to do some studying on the subjects at hand. Your position on pressure/CHE/PRE doesn't hold up under the harsh glare of fundamental scientific truths. Seafire, I enjoy most of what you write about, but jeez-o-pete, don't take it personal buddy. I know somebody's gonna short out over my words of wisdom(?) in this post...know what? It's free, maybe that's what it's worth, and it's not going to cause any pain or suffering if they do. Oh well. I had a fellow chopper pilot brag to me one day that he got a Huey airborne with full fuel/combat crew and ordnance and 9 grunts with a density altitude of something around 5000'. He always 'knew' a huey could lift more than it's design gross weight of 9500#. In truth he was probably about 1000-1500# over gross. Well, I just had to mention to him that it wasn't so much what they could take off with, people did that all the time in SEA. The point was that power-off performance for the aircraft was what really set the weight limits for a Huey, and most other single engine helicopters as far as I know. Momma Bell said,"If you're not over gross weight limits, and your engine craps out, you still have enough energy in the rotor system to land safely w/o breaking anything." The counterpoint being, if you are, you don't. No magic in the world could prevent it. So it is with handloading safety. You may all push those limits if you so desire. It seems more rational to buy a bigger gun instead, at least to me. Bigger Cartridge+Same Bullet = less worry. Probably. While I'm at it, will this thread ever die? Babble Off. Fire at will. | |||
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Quote: Hey DD, I do thank you for your "unrequested" appraisal of my knowledge concerning Pressure/CHE/PRE. I'd strongly encourage you(but I'm not telling you what to do, mind you), not to hold your breath waiting for me to change my mind about what I've been educated on, experienced, witnessed and utilized for 5 decades - First Hand. Best of luck to you. HSGS = Reloaders Pyrite(aka Fool's Gold) | |||
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Quote: When I get kicked off other forums, they tell me to go over to AR with other tech-no-twits. I fit right in here  Here at AR they gang up on A**Clown instead of me, for being Mr. Know-it-all. I was shocked when I read in this thread: Quote: that was beyond me. I would have said that velocity is the area under the pressure curve minus bullet friction, but I thinking now I would not have been precise enough. Here at AR, there is a chance to LEARN something new | |||
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Saying that Velocity never equals pressure isn't true. If you are working with the same set of components as in same powder, bullet, cases, barrel length etc. as a manual lists and you are getting much higher velocities - you are running at a higher pressure. Check with a few professional ballisticians with real ballistics labs and you'll find this to be true. Probably the most accurate pressure guage available to an average handloader is a chronograph comparing your velocities to instrumented velocities as in new manuals. If you are getting 100-200fps faster than everyone else is with the same powder and bullets you're running potentialy dangerous pressures.........DJ | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Re: 30/06, 180 grain Bullet 2900 fps? Published P
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