i read alot about these surplus powders and was wondering if you can still purchase them or are most of these powders from old stashes? if you can still get some of them where would a person look. are new surplus's of powders being made?

I just saw some WC844 in 675lb lots for sale on some site like http://www.govliquidation.com or something. It was pull-down powder.

But, yes, new powder is coming to market all the time.

used to be able to get quite a few surplus powders like 4831, 4895, H335 but most of those supplies dried up long ago. now most of what you find is surplus 50 powder and even that is tough to come by. we buy wc860 in 55 gal drums for 50, but the last few years even that quantity is tough

Problems with buying truly Bulk Powders is going to be STORAGE !!!.

Any Local Ordinances will prevent any of you from purchasing any sizable quantity .

Sure 5 - 8 lb. containers but nothing larger and as records are now kept , WHY would you want to purchase

older Bulk powders re-containerized ???.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc224/375:
Problems with buying truly Bulk Powders is going to be STORAGE !!!.

Any Local Ordinances will prevent any of you from purchasing any sizable quantity .

Sure 5 - 8 lb. containers but nothing larger and as records are now kept , WHY would you want to purchase

older Bulk powders re-containerized ???.

atf requires a powder locker after a certain size, and local ords VARY ..

english isn't your first language, or second ,,, i doubt you lived many US areas and investigated

ATF regs govern, local regs guide...

where in the HE11 are you buying powder where they keep records? there AINT none in the FREE states

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Doc224/375:
Problems with buying truly Bulk Powders is going to be STORAGE !!!.

Any Local Ordinances will prevent any of you from purchasing any sizable quantity .

Sure 5 - 8 lb. containers but nothing larger and as records are now kept , WHY would you want to purchase

older Bulk powders re-containerized ???.

atf requires a powder locker after a certain size, and local ords VARY ..

english isn't your first language, or second ,,, i doubt you lived many US areas and investigated

ATF regs govern, local regs guide...

where in the HE11 are you buying powder where they keep records? there AINT none in the FREE states

I bought a Black Powder Locker from a Gun Shop closing years ago and use it!!

That being said some cities do limit this type of thing.

quote:

WHY would you want to purchase

older Bulk powders re-containerized ???.

in a word M-2

No sense in getting into a pissing match boys .

You go ahead and give it your best shot buying 675 Lb of smokeless powder or black powder

or a bulk rail car and see if you can pull it off ; I'm sure all the members on the forum will purchase

whatever you can muster up !. I'm fully aware of powder magazines rules regulation and States have


different ones according to size class of explosives retail commercial . States and LOCAL ORDINANCES

MANDATE WHERE those magazines may be located and the BAFTE has NOTHING to say about that end of it !!!.

Those Guide lines come from Local City County FIRE DEPT. !!!.

So any of you who attempt to have UPS FedEx or Truck, Rail transport deliver large quantities of powder

be sure and inform your Lawyer of your rights to do so !. Do you really think the Government isn't going

to know WHO and WHERE that Powder went too ?. Do you think that powder producers don't have " Detailed "

shipping manifest !!!.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/g...torage_handling.aspx

Try scrolling down the linked page , You may want to read ; 10-3.7

So next time try not to hoist the BS flag so quickly , as the final Legal permission is your LOCAL

REGULATION based on Fire Dept. recommendations . Some places allow no more than 8 lb smokeless powder

containers within residential established communities !. Thankfully I don't live there !!!.

PS ; I once operated an 80K lb Class A magazine within the County of San Diego CA. .

BHO himself couldn't pull that off now days !. My Westerly neighbors maintain nearly 400-600 tons

of explosives including several tons of small arms ammunition . They won't even share !!!.

Most of what I use is surplus or bulk overrun or whatever it is called at the time, and I'm as happy as a pig in poop.DP 2200, 2230-C, 8208, wcc844, wcc846, Dp 73, Dp 74, DP 85, DP 86, H 4831,H 4895, 5010, 5020 IMR 7383, T680. The only surplus that ever had a problem was an 8# container of H 4895 that went acid.
Good luck in finding any before the military action stops. roger

I have had half of all the kegs of surplus IMR 4895 that I purchased go bad.

There is a reason the Army scraps surplus powders: they are at the end of their shelf life.

I know a Navy Energics expert. The expert said that Navy powders are initially tested at 10 years. They put a litmus paper in contact with the powder. If the paper changes color, nitric gas is present.

If the paper shows a problem, they then chemically test the powder for the amount of stabilizer in the powder. If that drops below 20% original, than the powder is scrapped. You have to have the original powder records to know how much stabilizer was in the powder when it was made.

The Army scraps by clock time. Double based powders are scrapped at 20 years, single based 45 years.

So, if you are buying surplus single based rifle powders, that stuff is probably 45 years old.

Of the stuff I have left, I am shooting it up as fast as rifle matches will let me.

I will be shooting some of it in a XTC match this weekend. Shoots good. But considering one batch ruined 700 308 LC cases with case neck cracks, I am going to avoid the stuff in the future.

The expert said that he was surprised the military was selling this stuff to the public. Old powders do spontaneously combust and he thought it was only time until the Federal Government stopped release of the stuff.

i was thinking more along the lines of who has it and redistributes it. i read all these stories of some of yall older loaders that you could go tot he hardware store and fill up whatever container you had by the lb. i don't need any powder for a little while but was thinking that maybe later on i could buy say 20lb or so to load 223 with.

I have bought some from here.

http://www.gibrass.com/

quote:

Originally posted by Doc224/375:

http://www.alliantpowder.com/g...torage_handling.aspx

Try scrolling down the linked page , You may want to read ; 10-3.7

That is so ate up with political BS made up by know-nothings.

quote:

10-3.7 Smokeless propellants intended for personal use in quantities not exceeding 20 lb (9.1 kg) may be stored in original containers in residences. Quantities exceeding 20 lb (9.1 kg) but not exceeding 50 lb (22.7 kg), may be stored in residences if kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least 1-inch (25.4 mm) nominal thickness.

Seriously, what is a wooden cabinet going to do to make 3 jugs of powder any safer than they are sitting on a shelf?

BTW, this isn't code, it's recommendations. And not very good ones at that.

My take on the 1 inch wood walls.

It will take a fire much longer to ignite powder through a 1 inch wood wall than a plastic bottle. If the powder ignites, it should not be subject to compression that a metal wall container (surplus ammo box) will offer. Of course no compression no explosion.

From a buddies' experience, the firemen will stay back when powder starts to blow. His experience was with the black powder. I am quite certain a surplus ammo box could get the pressure up at least in the pistol powder burn rates.

I wasnt aware of any instance where our miltary actually loads ammo anymore. Why would they test powder? I would think some of the pulldown powder comes from ammo that is rotated out of stock but mostly it came from rounds like the 30 carbine and 308 that just arent used anymore. Last i knew the military contracts all of its ammo out ot manufactures. Ive used surplus powders for over 30 years and have yet to have a problem with it. As a matter of fact alot of comercial powders like 4350 4831 4895 760 ect were orignianly surplus powders that powder companys repackaged and sold as new. Another case is accurate arms. they made there buiness repackaging surplus powder and sell it in pretty jugs. I chuckle at guys that badmouth surplus powder but will use surplus in a pretty jug at twice the price and think they actually have something better.

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
I have had half of all the kegs of surplus IMR 4895 that I purchased go bad.

There is a reason the Army scraps surplus powders: they are at the end of their shelf life.

I know a Navy Energics expert. The expert said that Navy powders are initially tested at 10 years. They put a litmus paper in contact with the powder. If the paper changes color, nitric gas is present.

If the paper shows a problem, they then chemically test the powder for the amount of stabilizer in the powder. If that drops below 20% original, than the powder is scrapped. You have to have the original powder records to know how much stabilizer was in the powder when it was made.

The Army scraps by clock time. Double based powders are scrapped at 20 years, single based 45 years.

So, if you are buying surplus single based rifle powders, that stuff is probably 45 years old.

Of the stuff I have left, I am shooting it up as fast as rifle matches will let me.

I will be shooting some of it in a XTC match this weekend. Shoots good. But considering one batch ruined 700 308 LC cases with case neck cracks, I am going to avoid the stuff in the future.

The expert said that he was surprised the military was selling this stuff to the public. Old powders do spontaneously combust and he thought it was only time until the Federal Government stopped release of the stuff.

All I wish is that I would have brough several hundred more lbs of it when I could have brought it at under 7 dollars a lb. Or Even go back to the 1970 for under 5 dolars a lb.

Dam it would have store great in my root cellar.

But one buys what one can afford.

When I was loading at 12 years old I though a lb of powder went a long ways then I really started to shoot. 50lb lots are not enough.

If one shoots a 50 cal even more so.

Fascinating thread. I have discovered that I now need to build a Powder Locker. Thanks for the information guys.

Powder Locker = Buy a inoperative fridge, put a chain around it so the door will open @ three inches (it's now kid proof). Most of your regs require that the locker will vent to release pressure. That's why you want the door to be able to open.
I don't know if buying a working Frost Free fridge would pull the humidity down as much as a knee high stocking full of rice laying in the bottem of the inop one. With the knee high full of rice, you can take it out every so often and microwave it for a few minutes to dry it out.
Kewl, huh.

doc,
after your first sentence, you are wrong. you SAID records are kept .. by WHO?


THERE IS NO FEDERAL LAW

quote:

Smokeless powder generally requires no Federal license or
permit, and there are no recordkeeping requirements.

http://www.atf.gov/press/relea...ntion-attachment.pdf

Its NOT TREATED AS AS EXPLOSIVE
its small arms powder,

quote:

81. Is smokeless powder designed for use in small arms ammunition subject to the explosives storage requirements?
Smokeless propellants designed for use in small arms ammunition are exempt from regulation under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 40 and the regulations in 27 CFR Part 555.

http://www.atf.gov/publication...d/p/atf-p-5400-7.pdf

(unless, of course, you violate the law with it - -BLACK POWDER IS HANDLED DIFFERENTLY)

and your experience MIGHT be relevent to company, NOT to a preson

There's no one keeping records of who buys ..

the atf defines HOW/WHEN on a powder locker

your experience is in a licenses facility -- of NO RELEVENCE to a person/individual

the ATF is the ruling body on explosives .. OF COURSE local ords CAN define it, but you INITIAL point was not this matter.

give it up, you are incorrect.

I too wish i would have jumped while the jumping was good. Ive got quite a bit but surely not enough for my lifetime and recently the prices of it have gotten so high that its hardly worth bothering with anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
All I wish is that I would have brough several hundred more lbs of it when I could have brought it at under 7 dollars a lb. Or Even go back to the 1970 for under 5 dolars a lb.

Dam it would have store great in my root cellar.

But one buys what one can afford.

When I was loading at 12 years old I though a lb of powder went a long ways then I really started to shoot. 50lb lots are not enough.

If one shoots a 50 cal even more so.