Bartsche


Absolutely !

See my position is simple !

We are all like the Salmon, once we are spawned out and our young are taken care of we are dispensable, bear food or simply turned to rot in the river !

That's it, we got to get out the way for the young generation, they will be flying to Mars and are the ones making the inventions!

No matter if you were the one transplanting the first heart or taking the first space flight, once it's done and you are done you'd better get out the way cause the new kids are going to run over you and not even notice it!

Have yourself a pleasant shooting day !

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Jeffe:


No Jeffe you cannot measure pressure using a micrometer !

A micrometer measures units of length!

Not units of presure ! so what you are measuring and I assume you are referring to the copper crusher is the effects of pressure on the dimensions of a pre chosen copper slug !

Or if you wish the dimension change at the head of a case!

So what you are doing is an after the fact, static meassurement of plastic deformation of slug of copper., or the base of a case, so once again it requires validation by means of statistical analysis !

Please quote me in context, son. How is CUP and LUP measured? NOT by a pressure sensor (directly) but by measuring expansion(width) and compression (height) of a slug.. with a caliper.

Your BLANKET statement that you can't measure pressure with a caliper is false.

Hard to believe the two fools have not Transcribed pages and PAGES of non-relevant info in an attempt to answer your question and support their non-supportable stupidity.

Of course you provided the answer, but Facts have never stopped them yet. Pitiful(alf) and Pathetic(warrior), quite a team.

Hot Core,

We eagerly await your guiding light ... your blueprint.
Give us the beef! Not your one-liners that serve no purpose here.
This is like pulling teeth,

Step up, or step back, man.



Warrior

Post removed cause load manuals have it all wrong !

The high end loads all have pressures and velcoties lower than the beginning loads.... what are they thinking !!!! For crying out loud !

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Bartsche

That's it, we got to get out the way for the young generation, they will be flying to Mars and are the ones making the inventions!

Have a great trip ole buddy! Can't wait for your expedition report. Let it be known that while you're gone you'll be missed, or not ! roger

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

How w do you know that by adding powder the velocity actually goes down?
I would if it's not to much trouble like to ask seeing as you have inferred that you are indeed an engineer, by what means this occurs?

Much appreciated humbly yours !
Alf

Alf,

I do not think we are going to see it in print, as that would mean that we have to READ, and that ain't no good. We will have to visit Hot Core to get the story. That story is to be TOLD to novices, and from thereon TOLD from generation to generation to avoid that it is getting lost, much like the Bushmen of the Kalahari is doing. That way it has more power if it comes from your Granddad and it is not some writer who writes for a gun magazine or Willam C Davis who worked for the military.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
I'm serious here. How w do you know that by adding powder the velocity actually goes down?

chronograph .. look at it.. in fact, i looking for jumps above the average, and falls when it doesn't go any faster and/or slower, than the previous loads.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

I'm serious and where can I find the micromter that will tell me that ?

you assert pressure, which is measurable via CUP/LUP and a micrometer is directly related to velocity. its not, never has been. therefore, your question is disengenuous, and you are flat out lying in your earnestnes

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

Alf

since you gentlemen have refused to explain why a 250 sav vs 257 weatherby go different speeds at the same pressure, its apparent you don't care about expansion ratio... if you did, you would have to accept that WORK causes velocity... which is more a function of TIME than peak pressure .. don't bother arguing.. i'll merely refer you to the crossman rogue 357 at a max psi of 2900, vs a 38special, which a pressure of roughly 15,000 .. and achieve identical results...


real world mets theory.. and theory looses, as usual.. thats why its theory and not law.

hwo long before all your posts on this thread are

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
.

quote:

There is no linearity between peak chamber pressure and velocity between various cartridges! even if their bullets are the same and their peak pressures are the same ! this is not disputed ! " ..... Alf

The essence lies in the above words ... "between various cartridges" as the question asked originally by umshiniwam was .... "testing some 180 grain .30-06 loads over the weekend. Firing groups of 3 cartridges for each load increment, using S365 (+/- IMR 4350) and CCI 250 magnum primers."

a) His question was in the context of a single cartridge (the 30-06 Spr.); not cross-caliber or cartridge.

b) The reloader is only interested in the rifle at hand when reloading - the rest is a non-event.

c) As mentioned there are other differences before the bullet exits the muzzle when cross-caliber comparisons are contemplated, such as the difference in expansion ratios and no two barrels are exactly the same, thus the "Pressure time curve" will be different.

Perhaps now we will have a meeting of minds that this is clarified that we deal with one cartridge at a time and not a multitude of other cartridges that happen to have the same peak chamber pressure.

Warrior

Alf,
I am the NOT the mod for this forum. Mark is.

You began this, sir.. correcting me, on observed facts. Further, your posts in this matter are incorrect.

my feelings, or lack there of, about you are immaterial, as is my position of moderator in OTHER forums. You aren't be corrected for behavoir or content in violation of any board rules.

I disagree with your presumptions, based on first hand experience. Experience trumps posturing, in my opinion.

Ignore you? when you supply what *I* consider mis-information, would be neglegant.

removing your posts is intellectually dishonest, and you know it.

have a nice day... it aint about YOU

Here is another classic example, and I quote from the SAAMI Rifle Pressure Specifications:

308 Win ..... 62,000 psi .... water case capacity = 56 gr H2O
30-06 Spr ... 60,000 psi .... water case capacity = 68 gr H2O

The 308 Win has a higher P-max and a smaller case as opposed to the 30-06.

So a pressure comparison across cartridges is not the way to interpret which cartridge will yield the highest velocity, as we know that we can reach a higher velocity in the larger case of the 30-06, despite its P-max being lower.

So, it is essentially the expansion ratio that determines the velocity of the bullet in conjunction with the ratio of powder charge to bullet weight.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Post removed cause load manuals have it all wrong !

The high end loads all have pressures and velcoties lower than the beginning loads.... what are they thinking !!!! For crying out loud !

C'mon, Alf. Nobody said the load manuals are wrong insofar as what they are reporting on or recommending.

What has been said has been that the manuals describe loads they tested and feel they can usefully recommend. And within those tests, they found good linear powder/load performace.

IF they went beyond their recommended maximums or changed some other aspects of the loads, they MAY have seen nonlinear results.

But researching those results to the point of being able to explain, or possibly even predict them, really isn't within the purview of their intended work or their manuals.

And listing such loads, IF they ran into them, would be contrary to good sense because, sure as Hell, someone would want to use them and WOULD use them. And without knowing fully why they occur nor being able to give logical warnings as to the causes, that would not be too ethical, just because someone might destroy his rifle or himself.

So, why would anyone expect them to be in there?

That does not mean that such phenomena don't happen, nor does it mean that lack of documentation of the occurances by loading manuals insinuates incompetency on the part of the manual developers/sellers.

It just means we have more to learn about what actually transpires in cartridges. Hopefully rather than living in denial, we will be able to eventually do that.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
AC:

Well what can I say? The AR truth police are after me gotta be careful now!

The books you say are right, add more powder and velocity goes up !

Do I understand you correctly ? ( within off course the safety windows allowed for by the powder companies)

The question initially was if you add more powder does the velocity always go up ?

Everyone said: No ! Resounding No ! Does not happen !


They collectively have evidence based on their own chrono readings , real life experience , not book experience that it's not so ! ( and being trustful of everyone here we assume they actually know how to interpret data gleaned from a string of 3 or 5 shots)

So if those readings are true and the answer to the original question is no then the books are wrong ! or partly wrong? partly right, sometimes wrong sometimes right ?

It's a crapshoot man ! One thing I've learn't on AR dont trust anything you read in the books !

Well, I think the operative modifier in that question is the word "ALWAYS".

No, it doesn't ALWAYS go up. It always does when within safe pressures and using otherwise tested & recomended loads, but not neccesarily otherwise.

So, the answer is:

"No, it dosn't ALWAYS GO UP! But, if you add powder to a charge and the velocity doesn't go up, you are likely on dangerous ground and ought to take a very careful look at any further use of that load combo...drop back to something tested and known to be safe enough to recommend."

You know that as well as I, and so do Jeffe and Hot Core. So why prolong all this to the point of exaspiration and anger?

quote:

"No, it dosn't ALWAYS GO UP! But, if you add powder to a charge and the velocity doesn't go up, you are likely on dangerous ground and ought to take a very careful look at any further use of that load combo...drop back to something tested and known to be safe enough to recommend."

Thought that was implied all along !

Did I not make the point within the boundries of what is viewed as safe all along !

I'm not trying to prolong anything!

That is exactly the point of the V/C method ! as laid out by Johan Loubser now of Western Powder !

I brought this up years ago and HC called me on it claiming that somehow it was not true !

The V/C method relies on the fact that velocity goes up with charge mass and V: C remains constant within a statistical boundry ie there is a statistical linearity between Velocity and charge mass.

If it does not or there is significant alteration in trend you are on dangerous ground?

Warrior has been saying exactly the same thing !

Anyway it's not my theory I got it out of the Somchem Manual from the 80's in the and I see it was published recently in Handloader magazine

I will step away from this have a good one

FROM: Velocity-To-Charge Ratio Revisited - Shooting Times

"Dynamic V/C ratio is the increase in velocity resulting from each grain the propellant charge is increased.
For example, if you step up the powder charge by 1/2 grain and ..."

www.shootingtimes.com/ammuniti..._​veltocharge_200906 - Cached[B]

FROM: "Load from a Disk" program

"Pressures for this program are calculated using a modified pressure equation suggested by Homer Powley. For the alternate loading table, velocity is assumed to vary directly as the ratio of the powder charge and pressure as the square of the ratio of the powder charge."

From: Fr. Frog's Rules of Internal Ballistics

"Charge Weight to Bullet Weight ratio - This is the ratio of the weight of the powder charge to the weight of the projectile."

Homer Powley has worked in the Internal Ballistics field and has developed a lot of experience with small arms ballistics. He is famous for creating the "Powley Computer for Handloaders" which is a set of slide rule like devices for computing optimum loads for a generalized gun given the charge to bullet mass ratio, case capacity and expansion ratio. The computer calculates the IMR series powder type and charge to use, and gives muzzle velocity. The calculator assumes a fixed loading density of 86% of the case volume and a peak pressure of 45K psi. The second calculator relates chamber pressure to velocity, given the expansion ratio, case capacity and charge.

The Powley equations may be found in the NRA Handloading manual and in the BASIC program POWVER22.

http://kwk.us/chronographs.html

"To begin, one needs data on how pressure and velocity vary as various components of a rifle cartridge are changed. The figure of merit is how fast pressure rises for a given change in velocity. One can state this as a ratio such as 3:1, or "3 to 1," meaning pressure rises 3% for every 1% rise in velocity. This is the most important ratio to study, since it is by adjusting charge that one is supposed to adjust the velocity seen on the chronograph. Modern reloading data, such as that from the web sites of Hodgdon and IMR and reloading manuals such as Lyman's 48th and A-Square's all include pressures and velocity for max and starting loads (and sometimes in between as well)."

The V/C ratio still remain the best tool the novice reloader can use to gauge his load versus the loads in the reloading manual, on the basis that we accept the premise that the laboratories have published their maximum safe pressures, even though it is still below P-max for the safety of the non suspecting public or novice reloader.

Even with sophisticated equipment in a ballistic lab measuring of pressure and velocity gets worked back to mean values. Also take note that manufacturers states that measuring equipment has an intrinsic small error level, and thus we have to work with mean values.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
...You know that ...

Hey AC, That is the problem, neither of them really do and never will. The more they Transcribe - the Stupider they look - which is a good thing, since it helps keep the Rookies from believing any of it.

Hot Core,

Where is your blueprint ???????????????
Your rabid rantings mean nothing. !!!!!!!
Let the music play.



Warrior

The silence is deafening.



Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
The silence is deafening.



Warrior

And the winner is****? roger

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

"No, it dosn't ALWAYS GO UP! But, if you add powder to a charge and the velocity doesn't go You know that as well as I, and so do Jeffe and Hot Core. So why prolong all this to the point of exaspiration and anger?

Current score, USA 3, Africans 0.

The next award is iro introducing "the concept of a story must be TOLD and not WRITTEN":

And the winner is ... drum roll please !!!

And the Grammy Award goes to ...

It goes to the one and only .... HOT CORE.

And the audience goes ballistic.



Warrior

Ken Waters - Handloader 1970.

Very informative graph:



Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Ken Waters - Handloader 1970.

Very informative graph:




Warrior

sure is..shows clearly that increases in pressure have no liiear or even colinear relationship ...

LOOK at the actual curves ... not the average lins ... those are generalizations, not
FACTS..

in fact, read ken's laster sentence
"the average increase in pressure and velocity per grain, shown formany loads and powders in the accompanying tables must be considered a guide, accurate only for loads well below maximum.
its amazing ... but to get some folks to believe the facts, presented, is pretty darn tough ...

pretty amazing that ken stated in 1970, and demonstrated divergent curves... if you solved the equations, you would rapidly find a point where pressure increases and theres a NEGATIVE change in vel ..

its right there, before you eyes, the the presure CURVE is skyrocking, and the actual fps is failing.

Jeffe,

It is what it is.
Remember what I said, it is not y = mx + c.

Warrior

Chris,
it's certainly not y=mx+b .. in fact, its two divergent curves ... .. and if pushed far enough, you get negative return on more grains...

which takes us back to the original question, AGAIN

Jeffe,



Which is why I said:

The V/C is such a good tool to use for the reloader, as it tells how hard the rifle is working, and when the V/C drops, it is a tell-tale sign that we are reaching a point of diminishing returns, and then ultimately we will reach a situation where only the pressure goes up. And that is why the reloader has to concern himself with the area between the min & max loads, and even then we have to treat the recordings statistically that we can get a specific level of confidence, as echoed by Willam C Davis.

Warrior