The rifle is a Sako A-7.

Loaded up some rounds

66 grains Shot 2625

68 grains. Shot 2725

70 grains Shot 2850

All shot ok , around an inch , but haven't found a node , I'm going to load a few with 71 , and 72 , and see what shows , Berger book shows 68.5 as max load Nosler book shows 74 as max load

Everything I shot showed no signs of pressure , but I did notice , it would shoot the first two shot side by side then as barrel heats shoots third either up or down , plus barrel fowls quickly , so I'm sure as things slick up will shoot cleaner , and we saw from the S S T that it shoots them good hot , that superformance powder is hot stuff !

Thanks,
Ski+3

Grumpy old grandpa may sound like a curmudgeon but none the less I really appreciate your young guys interest particularly since I am schooling my grandson.

So here's the deal:

Your post doesn't pose a question.
It provides basic ballistics but it lacks specific information about bullets.

You state that you don't have a "node" but I can't understand what a node means in specific terms. What is a node that you are looking for?

The reference is to "bullets" from various manufacturer but it doesn't specifically specify what bullet. Bullets come in many forms with dramatic influence on performance - i.e., velocity and pressure.

If you will tell us what you intend to accomplish and provide adequate details we will be better equipped to help.

Ha! Thank you Wettibe.

My specific question is: Is is common for one reloading manual to offer different max loads than another? Berger VLD 185 grain. IMR4831 powder.

...... Node (graph theory), a vertex in a mathematical graph, or a point in a network topology at which lines intersect, branch or terminate
Node (algebraic geometry), a type of singular point of a curve

Ski+3

Yep

Different, bullet, shape, hardness, test process, age of manual, lawyer etc.

Try H-1000 with that bullet.

I know what you mean. Yes, as Ram said, no two manuals are alike and neither are rifles. Your barrel needs, cleaning, lapping, and, or, re-heat treating. I have had barrels do the same thing from one maker who shall remain un-named, and the phenomenon disappeared after they were lapped. Lead lapped with a rod; none of this fire lap nonsense.

This is my go to 300 Winchester Magnum load and out of a 28 inch Encore barrel gets about 2,850 fps.

A few things about the node you're looking for. As you increase the node further, you will probably find that at some point the groups will open up a lot; there will be no point in going beyond that. The groups may tighten up a little before that but you may never find the node you're looking for. With some powders it's also possible to miss the node if you go up in 1 grain increments.

It's also pretty common for queries about using a particular bullet and powder. There is disappointment in the accuracy, etc. To find an accurate load, you may need to try a number of different powder/bullet combinations though at times you'll luck out. I tried a number of powders and bullets before settling on the above load.

Yes, but the OP has another situation; two shots together followed by a flyer. This ain't the load, nor the bullets that cause that. And his "barrel fouls quickly". He has a barrel issue.

I would agree that a barrel that fouls quickly probably has a rough area in the bore.

As for the term "flyer"; I detest it. It should be extirpated from reloaders' vocabulary. The hole away from the two close together IS part of the group. Calling a third divergent shot a flyer is no more logical than calling the the second shot of a two shot group a flyer.



The above is the ONLY 3 shot group I've ever shot without a flyer. Surprisingly, I shot it with a barrel that in general couldn't be depended on to do better than 1.5 to 2 inches at 100 yards.

What's the big deal I have a lot of 1 shot groups that give me .042" groups.

Years ago I had a couple like that with my BR rifle. NEVER with a hunting rig. Does it repeat or was it a one timer? What's the average?

No, it didn't repeat. As noted, the best I could depend on it for was 1.5 to 2 inches at 100 yards. It was one of the worst barrels I had so I sold it to someone who was satisfied with "minute of deer."

It kind of also illustrates how deceptive a single 3 shot group can be.

quote:

As noted, the best I could depend on it for was 1.5 to 2 inches at 100 yards

I must be getting blind in my old age. Or too lazy to read or both.

Had a used military 7x57 that shot one shot groups looking like that. Then again the rifling were gone.

Don't even want to think about the $$ and time I spent over the years trying to get that .75" rifle to a .5. Now as long as it is submoa and the first 2-3 hit were they are supposed to I'm happy.

Thanks guys!
This is a brand new barrel and I am hoping it gets smother as I shoot.
Planning to use it for ibex in Kyrgy this fall and wanting to use Berger VLD's. Powder availability makes for interesting complications. I have plenty of IMR4831 and would prefer to use it if possible. Am trying to find ABLR bullets with no success.

Ski+3

I had a Blaser R 93 barrel that didn't have very good accuracy. It seemed to have some roughness in the bore and would foul after just a few shots. It would literally take 2 or 3 days of using Wipe Out to get all the fouling out after just a few shots.

After putting about 100 rounds through the barrel with no improvement, I sent the barrel back to Blaser who found it defective and sent me a brand new one which has been very satisfactory.

I guess what I'm trying to say, if your barrel fouls rapidly and is hard to clean, it's NOT normal for even a new barrel. The barrel may be defective and if you have the option, you might consider returning it.

My feelings for what they are worth...

For a high value hunt like Ibex in Kyrgyzstan, there is no way I would be using Berger VLD's. I don't buy the penetrates a short way then expands violently thing- its like any other cup and core, or the Nosler ballistic tip in my experience- may work great if you KNOW your shot is going to be 400+, but may fail you up close with magnum velocity. Berger's are great long range and target bullets, but I know a couple guys who had real ugly experiences with them.

I haven't shot any Accubond LR's.

You are looking for a reasonably high BC bullet with good penetration.

The Barnes TTSX has a somewhat erratic history with expansion here.

The regular accubond has good BC and game expansion.

The Swift Sirocco is also a good BC and expansion bullet.

I would pick a known performing bullet to start with then go out to 200-300 yards and do a ladder test with the 4831 and actually figure out what nodes your rifle has rather than going by velocity or some "ideal load" from a book.

Pick a node that is at the top of the loading weight pile if you have more than one.

Play with OAL to see if that improves the groups at all. If the best node and tweaking COAL doesn't result in an acceptable group, you should probably replace the barrel (or the rifle).

Load up all your brass and shoot a bunch at longer ranges (to get your dope on a card) and in field positions and go.

I have talked to a bunch of guys who have gone on sheep hunts where they were told to expect shots at 500+ who shot their sheep at well under 200 with odd angles, etc. I haven't heard anyone say that they shot at over 600- and a few guys I know can shoot at extended range who said of Marco Polo and Ibex over there that with the wind conditions you really can's shoot at over 500 even with laser ranging, etc. Its high wind that is gusting and you just can't judge wind at more than that and be "minute of brisket"

I'm not so sure that I should wade back into this one but I have some questions and some comments.

Node: I'm still trying to figure out exactly what you Guys are talking about. Node can be a very elusive word with several implications. It can mean certain things in internal ballistics and also in external ballistics. Any clarifications will be appreciated.

I'm pretty far along in years and the best is behind me. As I read these opinions it's de vu all over again. I quit posting here 10 years ago and I'm now just back, primarily for my grandson. New things happen so I'm all ears and eyes.

Long shots and bullet types:

Shots: My way of thinking is 300 yards max. That would be a 200 yard zero. Beyond that you are just off the chart, ballistic ally in never, never land. The loss of velocity and energy is too great beyond.

Bullets:

I have seen and heard all of the arguments, pro and con, for decades, about energy dump, expansion, penetration etcetera ad infinity and I have concluded that most of it is essentially poppy cock largely promoted by the bullet manufacturer trying to run their snake oil jive onto the buyers.

Although I do respect divergent opinions mine is that I don't want my bullet to penetrate so far and then create havoc. I want mine to go all the way through and keep on motoring. That means to me, often, a solid all copper. But not necessarily only that.

Shot placement is infinitely more important than energy dump. Hit them in the chest or spine and it's curtains. Hit them in the stomach or a leg and it's most likely "see ya" and hasta luego. So they live a little longer in painful agony and eventually die to rot or feed the scavengers.

There was an elk hunter who would blast away at 600 yards. Those shots are Hail Mary's. There isn't anything sportsman about such a philosophy.

No doubt, after spending thousands of dollars the pressure is on to get your trophy and not come home empty. I understand that. I have been there, done that. But at the same time I have shot my animals, moose and caribou at +- 200 yards. Once it took me 16 days, on moose, but a spine shot concluded the hunt successfully and satisfactorily.

The memory of a hunt will stay in a persons memory forever. He/she will relive it many times. Mine are clean and satisfying.

quote:

Originally posted by wetibbe:
I have seen and heard all of the arguments, pro and con, for decades, about energy dump, expansion, penetration etcetera ad infinity and I have concluded that most of it is essentially poppy cock largely promoted by the bullet manufacturer trying to run their snake oil jive onto the buyers.

That is also my opinion.

As for Berger VLDs, I've used them for 3 deer and 4 pronghorns with no complaints at all. If I were going sheep hunting, it would probably be with Berger VLDs out of a 257 Weatherby.

Wettibe, the node that I am referring to is when doing a ladder test, you make up loads which are maybe 0.2or so grains apart apiece with all other variables are the same. You shoot at given range at a single target and mark each shot serially.

You will find that certain loads will impact almost the same height despite the increased powder, and those typically are the accuracy sweet spots for that bullet/powder combo in that gun. That collection of close impacts is called a node in a ladder test.

It saves you tinkering with shooting multiple groups to determine what is the preferred load.

CR:

Thank you for your response.

Aha!!! The light bulb came on

You are referring to Creighton Audette's ladder test - ------!!!!! e.g., OCW optimal charge weight vis a vis the "round robin".

It has it's proponents and it's opponents.

What you describe involves both internal AND external ballistics simultaneously.

Perhaps I should again point out the vast numbers of powders available presently that come in several form and burn rates. Changing from one to another can mean a case with air space or a case brim full requiring compression.

Both the internal and external ballistics are truly complex, very extensive and can get quite exotic.

As to the "node" of finding an optimal grain weight and locating charges that increase incrementally but deliver the same relative performance, accuracy, velocity, MOA I think that the Quick Load software can shed some light on the matter. The manual is only 120 pages so I obviously can't go into much here. However, given a certain barrel, length, burn rate, powder can be 100% burned by the time the bullet reaches the muzzle and it can also be that not all powder is burned but some blows out the muzzle before burning. That will foul the results of the Audette ladder test. When the ladder test plateaus and additional powders deliver the same results the test is essentially compromised.

Being a meticulous tinkerer myself, I surely condone such activity. None the less it seems to me to be a distraction. The main objective should be the accuracy or "sweet spot", i.e. MOA minute of angle perfection maximized.

I have to agree completely with one above very thoughtful and incisive post pointing out the winds and steep shooting angles in country like Ibex in Kazakhstan, or any other remote sheep country.

Let me say too that our "ancestors" shooting bison with primitive rifles charged with lead bullets and black powder did so at 600 yards and they managed to wipe out 43 million bison is just a couple of decades.

To expound on my premise that 300 yards is about max for accurate shooting, I know that some long range and sniper shooters hit at jaw dropping distances. They can hunker down, rest the rifle and shoot.

The sheep shooter is climbing steep mountain, huffing and puffing, the adrenalin is flowing, nerves are on edge, excitement is pervasive, and probably shooting either off hand or from some improvised rest to steady his rifle.

Wets be,
You knew that all along. Didn't Ya?

Rusty:

Yep, yep - Nope, nope !!!!!

When you know me better you will realize that I am the self described world class, grand champion, pain, meticulous investigator who essentially does not believe anything or anyone until time tested and vetted to my satisfaction..

I gathered that! I yeild the balance of my time to you, sir!

Thanks guys. Always a please to read a conversation among pros.I think we have it figured out with H4831 powder and Berger bullets.
I agree about the fuss and wish I had 43 million buffalo to shoot. But I would rather pay the trophy fee for an ibex than loose my topknot to Crazy Horse!

I will keep you updated.

A bit late but,
I have always said. If a 300winchester won't shoot with 74grains H4831, and a Sierra 180 prohunter, it aint gonna shoot.

Here are my .300 Win Mag groups (all 5 shots at 100 m)

Shot with my Blaser R93 (SGK165/N160/73.5 - CCI 250)




Shot with my Rem 700 Sendero (1st. :Blaser 165 CDP. 2nd & 2rd. : 180 SP/N160/71.5 - WLRM).

About a year ago, I was tinkering around with my 300 win map trying to find that perfect load for 400 yards and an 8-10" target. My main target for this load was Vaal rhebok in South Africa.

Finally, I was at my gunsmith discussing this and that. He suggested I use 72 grains of any of the 4350s with 180 grain bullet. It should be around 3100 fps. He went on to say, if that doesn't work, come back because something is wrong with your rifle and we need to work on it.

I wanted to use the 180 grain Barnes TSX, which I slowly worked up to.

The results were excellent!


Vaal rhebok taken at 429 yards with a slight cross wind (~10 mph).


The scope used, along with several hundred shots down range leading up to the hunt, provided extreme confidence in my rifle and my capabilities. I used this Scope with the Ballistic Turrets.

Good luck on your hunt!

A link to my original post. Link

Hey Rob,

Did you get that thing sorted out yet? I've got a small stable of .300s, and my day in day out solution is 79-80 grains of H1000 under 180-190 grain bullets. Its good for 3150 with a decent 26" barrel and the 180s, a bit less with 190s.

I had my daughter out on Monday for her first crack past 300, and also first try with anything bigger than a .223. She was using my old .300 hunting rifle. Note the wide shot that due to my own bad wind call, the next 6 are on the money. Also note that range was 800 yards. 100 yard groups are an amusing hobby.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
A link to my original post. Link

Graybird:

ThanX for the link.

Version 1 is still free. Version 2 is pay. I bought version 2 tonight. I don't want to rush to judgment but they are antiquated in their procedures that make it complicated to process. In the coming days I will give it a fair evaluation.

I have my own opinions and fetish but !!!!

After a lifetime of hunting I am left with two rules. Make that 3

#1. Any shot at game over +- 300 yards is a Hail Mary. Cross your fingers and wish.

#2. Within reason ANY caliber is not too much for any animal.

#3. I don't particularly subscribe to the mumbo jumbo bullet manufacturers propaganda about energy dump and expansion within the animal. Horse feathers ! I want mine to go ALL the way the through and keep on going.

Make that 4

Whenever you think you're OK with a certain caliber up it 50% IF you have the resources.

I have a tendency to go heavy on caliber, bullet weight, composition *( i.e. copper solids ) and energy.

Conversely I have put down domestic pigs with a .22 short and I spined a Moose in Ontario with a 25-06.

None the less I do have to concede that when a person shells out the big bucks on a big game hunt he/she may be entitled to run the gamble of a LONG shot, particularly if the PH agrees.

Personally I have never shot any game over about 300 yards. I don't want to sound like I am lecturing, and at the same time I grant my fellow shooters their opinions. I have never, ever had any game large or small get away from me.

What can I add ?

Anyone that tinkers with ballistic software knows that after a certain distance, bullet drop, energy and WIND effect diminish the chance of a result that will disable the game.

I don't have a whole lot to add here, but if you haven't tried Berger's bullet seating test you should. Just google "Berger making them shoot", it'll save you a bunch of headaches and bullets. I find pressure first then back off a half a grain of powder and run the bullet seating test. I do this with all bullets now not just Berger.

I'd link a PDF but I'm operating from my phone today.

Graybird:

Thanks again for the introduction to Load Development.

I tinkered around with it today for a couple of hours and after quite some effort finally got it to work.

Finally it gave me info that I data entry'd 15 years ago manually .

It's slick and cool - but ??????

Am I missing something ?

If the above, preceding posters want to run their groups by the software please let me/us know.

A .300 WSM group from a couple weeks ago, with a Kimber of all things. Fun, even if it doesn't mean anything.

quote:

Originally posted by wetibbe:
Graybird:

Thanks again for the introduction to Load Development.

I tinkered around with it today for a couple of hours and after quite some effort finally got it to work.

Finally it gave me info that I data entry'd 15 years ago manually .

It's slick and cool - but ??????

Am I missing something ?

If the above, preceding posters want to run their groups by the software please let me/us know.

It's just another tool and an option to keep notes, and targets digitally. Nothing more, nothing less.

Once you get the hang of the software, it doesn't take but a few minutes to completely log your entire range session.

I may be outfashioned, but I want my bullets punching holes in the target instead of printing circles...

quote:

Originally posted by Andre Mertens:
I may be outfashioned, but I want my bullets punching holes in the target instead of printing circles...

Umm? those are holes in a target!

I'm referring to ballistic software reproducing targets where bullet impacts are represented by little circles. My own Ballistic Explorer does it too.

quote:

Originally posted by Andre Mertens:
I'm referring to ballistic software reproducing targets where bullet impacts are represented by little circles. My own Ballistic Explorer does it too.

If you are referring to the software that I posted, then you don't understand the software.

You shoot a target as normal. Then, upload a picture of the target shot. You are then required to place the "little circles" over the bullet holes. The software then computes several degrees of data about your group.

No group reproduction or simulation here. Real bullet hitting a real target.

I stand corrected, Graybird. Not knowing your OnTarget program, I looked after it on the web. I did indeed found out that you used actual fired targets to edit via the software and superposed the "little circles" on real bullet holes.

I was abused by other ballistic software I know, including my own Ballistic Explorer, that edit computer targets where bullet holes are figured by "little circles". On another occasion a few years ago, I've also shot at the Swarovski factory shooting range (in Absam/Austria). They used computerized monitoring which allowed me to watch my 100 meter target on a TV set. When I was done, a printer produced a computer target where my bullet impacts were located by printed circles... Steyr-Mannlicher and BRNO(CZ) rifles also came with computer printed 3-shot test targets. But, as per today, I never heard about a ballistic program which could upload your real targets for further editing purposes. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa...