Or at least that gooey black stuff that Ortho sells for coating after you have pruned a limb off of a fruit tree?

Do you put the bullet in after it dries, or just shove it in right away?

I am not sure how the military does it.

Many thanks for your help.

There are several selers out there that would be better. Take a look at this one.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewp...productnumber=954332
I have used nail polish but this may be better.
Bill

That's a road I haven't gone down yet :-).


But more seriously, if a clean well prepped case neck isn't holding your bullet sufficiently it's probably a sign of problems that aren't going to be be best solved by gluing in your bullets. And hopefully your ammo is stored in better condition than would make sealants necessary. Were you just curious or trying to solve an issue you've had?......................DJ

John : Lacquer is a far better choice and MUCH cleaner an if you use ole Nitro lacquer it nearly vaporizes

during it's journey .

FWIW, reloaded ammo is surprisingly water resistant without any special sealant.

A few years ago, we were in the prep period at the 900 yard line when a severe thunderstorm dumped lots of heavy rain and hail. I hurriedly gathered up my gear, dumping score book/shooting block and ammo in the saddlebag on my shooting stool and headed for some sheltering trees behind the 1000 yard line.

Thought that I had covered the stool with my shooting mat, but when match resumed an hour or so later, reached into the saddlebag and found the ammo was submerged in about 8" of cold water. Temperature had dropped about 20-25* during the storm.

Figured the ammo would have been compromised, but decided to go ahead and shoot it anyway and was surprised that all shots were on call.

I think Doc is correct that shellac is what is used on GI ammo.

Regards,
hm

Thanks guys,

Even the best made, non sealed ammunition will equilibrate with the surrounding relative humidity (RH) after ten to thirty weeks; hence the admonition to store ammunition in a cool area with a RH of 40% to 50% (same RH as when it was made).

When I finally get healthier (or die trying), I fully intend to go ahead with making commercial "Safari" ammunition. Once a PH opens the sealed can that the ammo comes in, it may knock around on the dash of his bakkie for years. NATO spec'ed ammunition and the Safari ammunition made by Federal are both sealed with asphalt for the bullet, and lacquer for the primer.

The "belts and suspenders" approach is to keep the powder from equilibrating with a local RH of 10% (makes the powder too hot - kaboom) or 90% (pfffft - semi squibb).

I think I will let the asphalt partially dry. Then I can push any needed spacers beyond the sealer without gumming them up. Seating the bullet (with maybe a touch of asphalt around its base) should provide a 1/2" zone of sealer.

The biggest thing will be to originally seal the cartridges in a can, and keeping that can in a cooler place until needed.

Also, if a visiting hunter leaves his ammunition for the PH, having it well sealed will extend its "shoot by" date for a year or two.

I have been well educated on the difference between making personal use ammunition and commercial ammunition. The labor doubles, and the liability increases to infinity.

LD

Edited for spelling.

I've recently shot some of my 30 year old handloads, unsealed, that shot exactly as they did the day I loaded them. The idea of using a sealer has crossed my mind, but one experience with it has made me nervous.

I bought a box of fairly old factory-loaded 130 gr. Remington Bronze Points in .270 (remember them?) at a gun show, cheap and on a whim, and mostly for the brass...both primers and bullets were sealed with some kind of green laquer. The first round seemed a bit 'hot'; the second blew a primer. Being cautious, I decided to pull the rest with an RCBS collet puller, and found I couldn't - about 3/4 of them wouldn't budge. I decided to put them through the seater die, to bump them in a bit to break them loose before pulling them, and could barely even do that!
Whatever that green sealant was, it behaved more like cement. I'd be concerned that any sealer I tried might change it's characteristics over the span of a few years. I think I'll just stick with a good tight neck.

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:


The "belts and suspenders" approach is to keep the powder from equilibrating with a local RH of 10% (makes the powder too hot - kaboom) or 90% (pfffft - semi squibb).

Lawndart,
Keep us posted on your results. I have always been curious about doing this too.

Out of curiosity, do you have any data or experience that supports your suggestion that cartridges with low internal relative humidity are "hot". I have never noticed any difference between my handloads kept on shelves in my basement and handloads kept in ammo cans with desiccant. I've always just assumed that drier is better. I can't imagine an otherwise safe load becoming unsafe due to being dry inside. As long as there is not condensation inside, I'm not sure how having a higher fraction of H20 gas in the brass would affect anything. I'm curious to learn more about this.

Wes

hm1996 says,

quote:

I think Doc is correct that shellac is what is used on GI ammo.

I once read the stuff that seals the bullet to be something called "asphaltum." I have no idea what that is...

nail polish .. not long chain nasty hydrocarbons

http://naturalpigments.com/det...p?PRODUCT_ID=462-10B

http://www.pyroguide.com/index...trocellulose_lacquer

Jeffeosso ;

Most nail polishes are made of nitrocellulose dissolved in a solvent (e.g. butyl acetate or ethyl acetate) and either left clear or colored with various pigments. Basic components included are: film forming agents, resins and plasticizers, solvents, and coloring agents. Adhesive polymers (e.g. tosylamide-formaldehyde resin) ensure the nitrocellulose adheres to the nail's surface. Plasticizers (e.g. camphor) are chemicals that link between polymer chains, spacing them to make the film sufficiently flexible after drying.

Use what you will John ; As a chemist I prefer Nitro Lacquer for several reasons .Clean !

The trick is just enough an not to much . Seat the bullet 3/4 of the way and apply a small amount around

the the tip of the case mouth then finish the seating process ,or seat it all the way an then apply around the

case mouth an carefully wipe any excess .

Use of a small tip artist brush works well / don't know about an automated process !.

Works on both primer an bullet .

NO need to seal entire inside of case neck area and can be dangerous if done that way !. To much GRAB

and PRESSURE ISSUES ARISE and QUICKLY !!!.

Try this link:
http://www.handloadersbench.com/forum31/4814.html

Yep the Key is properly !.

Sniper 66: Posted this article an I borrowed part of it ;

Yes, some factory ammo is sealed. You can usually tell by the colored laquer sealant around the primer, Winchester is the most common. Some companies utilize laquer sealant around the bullet which is another method, but I don't like it because if you don't do it right, it can lead to too much laquer, a hard seal and dangerous pressures. When you use asphaltic tar, as the bullet is pushed down into the case, the base of the bullet scrapes away what is not needed, only what is necessary to fill in the imperfections of the case mouth and bullet is used. The rest is a ring around the base of the bullet. When the powder is ignited the asphalt is burnt and evacuated with the gases as ash out the bore. Laquer around the bullet canular can leave traces in the chamber, melted and left there and I'm not sure I want a deposit left in the throat of my chamber, however, the AK ammo has been doing it for years. Guess just preference.

I only do this to ammo that I plan on storing for many years, or hunting ammo that i know is going to be put through repeated heating and cooling cycles over a few years. If you do the water test as I said earlier and watch how much air is evacuated out of a case when it gets hot, then realize that much has to go back in when it cools off, then in a humid environment may cause a malfunction that you don't want or can afford. I hope that helps.

As for the lacquer seal it's far thinner and is less likely to be scraped away like the tar . Case

necks are like a spring, bullet enters and is sized sealing the neck tightly . Setting up the case mouth

expander should be done properly , so as not to OVER EXPAND . Practice makes near perfection .

The lacquer ring is because it's not NITRO LACQUER think about it !.

From one middle aged former chemist to another chemist, I very much appreciate your thoughtfull answers Doc, and my other esteemed colleages.

More than one, boredom in some odd corner of this old world had myself and the other riff-raff pulling apart cartridges, mainly to get the powder out of blanks to triple charge reinforced grenade simulators.

All the ball ammo up through 50 BMG had an asphalt sealer, so I shall experiment with that (rigorously). I believe that the asphalt sealer has more give in it as the case neck and bullet heats, and then cools.

A bullet/neck fit that was so tight as to prevent gas exchange would be very galled. I shudder to think how much (and how varied) the force to seperate the bullet during firing would be.

We are closing in on some answers; I am gratefull for all this excellent input. I do solicit more. I know, I know, damned scientists are never satisfied. Soon the production engineer and the marketer in me will say, "okay, stop pondering and lets start manufacturing."

I am interested to know the best source of suitable lacquer, and what dies to use in it; aniline?

Doc, I would appeciate a link to the rest of Sniper 66's article. I would guess he has a touch of military time.

John,

My guess is that the asphalt sealer is compounded from Gilsonite, the trade name for naturally occurring asphalt. I'm sure someone who knows chemistry would be able to come up with a sealer that would suit your needs using it as a base.

Some years ago I bought a bunch of milsurp 30cal pulls that still had the sealer on them. Easily removed soaked in lacquer thinner. FWIW, when the thinner flashed off, the remaining residue closely resembled the "Black Jack" roof sealer they sell down at the local lumber store.

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
When I finally get healthier (or die trying), ...

Hey JCN, I can't help you with the Sealant, but I do wish you God Speed on a healthy recovery. Don't want to loose you or have you permanently in a bad way.

John ; Sniper 66 is MIA at the moment ! ??. ( Yes Aniline dye is soluble in Lacquer an Alcohol )


Ammunition research in the first
postwar years was inspired not only by new
requirements, but also by the problems encountered in
preserving ammunition, especially propellants, stored
after the Armistice. Research proceeded in three areas:
determining the stability of smokeless powder, studying
the effects of long term storage on stability, and creating
more efficient methods of drying. A good deal of
valuable information on these substances was
assembled at Picatinny Arsenal, NJ, before 1926,
notably that on feasibility of the vapor method of drying,
which reduced drying time from months or weeks to
days. But a more permanent solution of some phases
of the powder storage problem would be to develop new
non-hygroscopic powders, which because of their
chemical composition would not absorb enough
moisture to affect their ballistics or chemical stability
even when stored in a damp atmosphere. If, at the
same time, flashless and smokeless qualities could be
incorporated, the advantages would be even greater.
Thus the search for flashless non-hygroscopic (FNH)
powders was vigorously pushed. The DuPont Company,
under a special agreement with the Ordnance
Department, followed one route of investigation, while
Picatinny Arsenal followed another. Each achieved
considerable success. The peacetime development of
complete single-base and double-base non-hygroscopic
powders, flashless in many weapons, was one of the
most useful accomplishments of the Ordnance
Department before 1940. Traditionally, British
propellants have been of the double-base type
developed prior to World War II and designated as
cordites. The cordites were made up of varying
percentages of nitrocellulose, nitroglycerin, and mineral
jelly. The mineral jelly (petroleum jelly or petrolatum)
acted as a stabilizer. A sample of British MD cordite
has been found to be of apparently unchanged stability
after 30 years of temperature-climate storage.
2-12
Downloaded from http://www.everyspec.com on 2010-01-25T2102.
TM 9-1300-214
The search for a compound that was both smokeless
and flashless had its beginning in the requirement
established by the US Army Ordnance's Westervelt
Board in 1919. In the early 1920's, ordnance scientists
offered the using arms samples of nitroguanidine, which
to a degree unobtainable in any other known propellant,
had both properties. But nitroguanidine gave off such
noxious ammoniacal fumes in combustion that the Field
Artillery vetoed its use. The Ordnance Department, with
no customers in prospect, then abandoned all thought of
building plants to make nitroguanidine. But ammunition
specialists found no satisfactory substitutes. Adding
potassium sulfate to propellants for antiaircraft fire,
where flashlessness was all important, helped to solve
that problem. However, it was no answer to the demand
for a completely smokeless and flashless propellant for
field artillery where smoke would obscure a gunner's
vision and muzzle flash would reveal the tank or battery
position.

MIL-DTL-1318C (AR)( Specs .50 cal M17 /tracer )
3
2.4 Order of precedence. In the event of a conflict between the text of this
document and the references cited herein, the text of this document takes precedence.
Nothing in this document, however, supersedes applicable laws and regulations unless a
specific exemption has been obtained.
3. REQUIREMENTS
3.1 First article. When specified (see 6.2), a sample of the M17 cartridges shall
be subjected to first article inspection in accordance with 4.3.
3.2 Conformance inspection. A sample of the M17 cartridges shall be subjected
to conformance inspection in accordance with 4.4.
3.3 Cartridge. The cartridge shall comply with all requirements specified on
Dwg 7672165.
3.4. Bullet extraction. The force required to separate the bullet from the cartridge
case shall not be less than 200 pounds.
3.5 Residual stress. The cartridge shall not split or crack when subjected to a one
percent mercurous nitrate solution for 15 minutes.
3.6 Waterproof. The cartridge shall not release more than one bubble of air when
subjected to a pressure differential of 7.5 pounds per square inch (psi) for 30 seconds.
3.7 Accuracy. The average of the mean radii of all targets of the sample
cartridges, fired at 600 yards, shall not exceed 12.0 inches or, when fired at 200 yards,
shall not exceed 6.25 inches.
3.8 Action time. The action time (overall primer ignition, propellant burning,
plus the time taken for the bullet to exit the barrel) of the cartridge, conditioned at 70°F
± 2°F, shall not exceed 4 milliseconds (ms).
3.9 Velocity. The average velocity of the sample cartridges, conditioned at 70°F
± 2°F, shall be 2,905 ft/sec ± 30 ft/sec at 78 feet from the muzzle of the weapon. The
standard deviation of the velocities shall not exceed 36 ft/sec.
3.10 Chamber pressure. The average chamber pressure of the sample cartridges,
conditioned at 70°F ± 2°F, shall not exceed 65,000 psi.
3.11 Function and casualty. The cartridge shall function without casualty.
3.12 Air tightness of base closer seal. The bullet shall not release more than one
bubble of air under the application of a pressure differential of 2 psi for 5 seconds


Abstract: Waterproof sealing of the sabot and primer of the XM645 Cartridge (SFR) has been achieved using a pigmented resin-solvent formulation. Firing tests conducted on experimentally sealed rounds have given every indication that seals are acceptable. Efforts to effect sealing of the sabot by means of commercially available dry-shrink or heat-shrink preformed plastic caps, or to mold caps having the desired wall thickness, were successful. A rapid, reduced pressure leak test was employed. (Author)

http://www.stormingmedia.us/98/9805/0980509.html

Unfortunately the remainder of this article was Unavailable ( FRANKFORD ARSENAL PHILADELPHIA PA. ) !!!.

This is all hugely helpful, and even more interesting.

I will research all of this stuff in detail, and report back on my efforts and Results.

Pictures even.

WESR,
Get a copy of the new Norma reloading manual. An engineer from Bofors/Nexplo tested factory ammunition that had equilibrated with a range of RHs. Dry fired hotter and moist didn't do so well.

IIRC the actual powder has water in it to the tune of 0.5% up to 4% or so, depending on RH.

I pulled some M118LR apart last night. Yep, asphalt up front, and lacquer in the back. Also, crimped primer pockets. The thinking goes that in a pinch, the "sniper" ammunition can be used in the nearest machine gun. History shows that things usually work in the opposite direction!

Thanks again Doc. I got off in the weeds with biochemistry and then molecular biology. That in turn led to medical school, duh. Shoulda, woulda, coulda stopped while I was ahead .

PS Time to order some Gilsonite

PPS Doc, where is a good place to order a gallon or so of Nitro Lacquer? Thanks.