Just curious, but what brand/type of medium to heavy game bullets have you "personally" seen fail in the field and would have reservations on using them on a trophy?
For me, I have had Sierra GameKings come apart on at least three occasions - 140 gr. .277 dia. and personally saw Nosler Ballistic Tips in 140 gr. 7mm and also in 30 cal.(I believe) 180 gr. have the lead completely come out of the copper jacket, leaving only the hull.
Also saw a buck after it was shot with Barnes TSX in a 270 WSM (no idea what weight bullet). The buck was a 170 B&C class deer that was hit in the shoulder. The bullet exited at roughly a 90 degree angle and of all the dumb luck, hit both G-2s and partially severed each. I was not there to see the shot,but I did see the entrance and exit holes in the deer and they were not in alignment unless the deer was laying down on a side of hill with his head cocked back to the right. I doubt that.

to me, bullet failure means it is meant to be an expanding, but not fragmenting, bullet retains less than 75% of weight at expected impact speeds

so, if by that you mean a hunting bullet, that detonates on impact, and is not wickedly over driven, then yeah, i've seen a few

257 BT -- never seen one recovered whole, and often find shed jackets
7mm BT, in 708 and 7remmag (loaded down) -- this class of gun should EXIT .. but frequently the bullets blow up and don't exit .. and the shed jacket is the heaviest piece left

hornady 250gr .358 bullets -- soft as bertram brass .. 2300-2400 MV, and they blow up

hawk .585, .550, and .458 heavy jacket bullets .. EVERY time, the bullets failed .. rarely did they "pencil" they pancake

quite a few 50 bmg pulled bullets, steel cores -- spit jackets on "this" side of plywood target boards. its WEIRD to walk up to the targets and the jacket is laying on the shooters side of the target .. weird

small barnes bullets -- 7mm and smaller -- frequently pencil right on through.

Now, even in my old 708 striker, the 140gr BTs, at 2650 MV, they bullets expand radically on neck shots in deer.

sierra 257 game kings -- no exits on deer .. killed like lightening, but no exits (4 deer with that one) .. switched to BTs, as i figured it its not going to exit, i may as well use an accurate one

Two if the Sierra GKs I am refering to went through on broad side shots in the lung area. On both occasions the bullet split into two or three pieces and left small exit holes on the far side. The other GK failure I had was three entrance holes going in the deer. I do not know if the bullet hit something between me and the deer or not. Anyway, the deer acted as if it were hit but not fatally. So I put another round into it. Then I saw the results.
I forgot to mention I also had one of the old Win. Silver Tips in a 130 grain 270 Win. come apart on a neck shot on a big Whitetail buck. His neck was huge. The bullet entered in the thickest part and blew up when it hit the spine.

In 1998 I was hunting with a friend of mine and he shot two does. He was using a 7mmRemMag and 140 BTs. Both deer were mangled by those bullets. If deer meat is a consideration for you, BT bullets circa 1998 were not a good choice.

Landrum

All the animals I have shot all died....I can't say that any of the bullets failed. Yes some opened up into pretty picture perfect mushrooms and some came apart but all performed to my expectations.....dead animals.

The only personal bullet failure I've witnessed was on a TX pronghorn last October. My partner used a factory .308 Win 165 Hornady SST. The shot was broadside at 234 yards. He aimed for high shoulder. The bullet blew up on the scapula. Didn't even penetrate to the vitals. He had to shoot it 3 more times at less than 10 yards to kill it.

Hornady SSTs are off my list to even consider.

FWIW, I've never ever had a nosler btip fail on any game animal since I've been using them (1990).

i've had a 6.5mm. nosler ballistic tip blow up on a well placed chest shot deer from about 135 yds. deer went about 25 yds and piled up, though. both lungs were like cheese cloth and no exit. a failure, but not a loss.
later read allot of this happening with ballistic tips.

I don’t know what bullet failure is. Did it look like a prefect mushroom or like those TSX pictures I see some of you people post? No. Did the bullet kill the animal? Yup!

180 gr (If I remember correctly) FailSafes many, many times on Australian feral donkeys at short range. Partions performed flawlessly

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Originally posted by interested:
180 gr (If I remember correctly) FailSafes many, many times on Australian feral donkeys at short range. Partions performed flawlessly

Exactly what did the Fail Safes do?
PS. Not doubting you observations just curious.

I really cannot say I have ever had a bullet fail.

But I have always been pretty particular what bullet I have shot into what game.

I always error on the side of "toughness", and use premium bullets on big heavy game.

I do not remember who said it first, but I believe...

"There are NO bad bullets, only BAD bullet choices".

1. I've never seen a Standard Grade(Lead Core) Bullet Fail on Game. All performed exactly as their Design Envelope intended.

2.I've never seen a Nosler Partition or Speer Grand Slam Fail on Game. Both performed exactly as their Design Envelope intended.

3. I've never seen an Original Fred Barnes Bullet Fail. All performed exactly as their Design Envelope intended.
-----

I've never used a BarnesX, TX, TSX, TTSx, TTTTSX, TTTTTTTTTTSX or any of the (suppose to Expand) Expanding Solids, nor any PCB. I don't need any stinkin' PCBs.

Mick -
these are bullet failures -- of course placement FAR out weighs performance on game ... doesn't matter than the game was recovered, these bullets FAILED in your picture below.

jacket seperations and spit cores always indicate your bullet is at or past its design

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Originally posted by MickinColo:
I don’t know what bullet failure is. Did it look like a prefect mushroom or like those TSX pictures I see some of you people post? No. Did the bullet kill the animal? Yup!

All of them which failed to make the target regardless of brand !

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Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Mick -
these are bullet failures

Not trying to give Jeff a hard time, but I disagree.

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-- of course placement FAR out weighs performance on game

This has to be a typo, because it is not even close to reality. For example, if you place a Ping Pong ball properly, all is well - Nah! Gotta be a serious typo on jeff's part.

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doesn't matter than the game was recovered, these bullets FAILED in your picture ...

Not sure who jeff is trying to convince, maybe himself. Still wrong though!

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jacket seperations and spit cores always indicate your bullet is at or past its design

If the Bullet is "Designed to be Fragile" it seems improper to say it is a Failure when it performs as Designed - to me.

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If the Bullet is "Designed to be Fragile" it seems improper to say it is a Failure when it performs as Designed - to me.

This makes good campfire debate.....

The following statement:

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"My Sierra matchking failed as a deer hunting bullet."

Is about as loaded a statement as can be.

I've never had a ballistic tip "fail" on me.....but sure have had a couple fail to meet my expectations!

I've had Remington Corelokts shed their cores at 7mm Mauser velocities.....but the deer died anyway.....

I've had Sierra boat tails (sold in Federal Premium loaded ammo) fail to expand on a pronghorn.....but the "goat" died 100 yards later without another shot being fired.

I've had Nosler partitions shed their front cores (Some say it's intentional ) and have never lost an animal I've ever shot with the partition bullets.

So far my experience with interlocks, SSTs, Northforks, A-Frames and Remington ultrabonded bullets has been superb.....why change?

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jacket seperations and spit cores always indicate your bullet is at or past its design

in my book, that means that the failure is in the dipstick who used it, not within the bullet.

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Originally posted by N E 450 No2:

quote:

Originally posted by interested:
180 gr (If I remember correctly) FailSafes many, many times on Australian feral donkeys at short range. Partions performed flawlessly

Exactly what did the Fail Safes do?
PS. Not doubting you observations just curious.

"There are NO bad bullets, only BAD bullet choices".

I'll see if I can locate my photos of the phenom. My PH and other staff were as surprised as I. In short, when FS hit rib or body bone at short range there was no penetration, just an blasting of the flesh off the offending structure. To get the donkey down, someone else shot it, of if I had time to switch magazines (Steyr SBS DBM---really quick change)loaded with Partitions, I shot it. We then did a de minimis dissection to see if we could locate any kind of wound channel.

Bullet "failure" means different things to different people...

I want my bullets to always expand, always exit the animal, and to be accurate and flat shooting. I've seen many bullets fail by my standards...

I shot a big bull moose with my .338-06 using 250 gran slams... Two shots, and both bullets came apart not even coming close to exiting. That was major failure to me...

I shot a big bull caribou one day with the same rifle, using the "first" style of Sierra 250's, and it came apart fast!

The two best bullets i've used in that rifle are 275 Speers, and 250 NP's... I've shot corner to corner on big brown bears with the Speers, getting a good exit hole after breaking a lot of bone to get there.

Balistic tips are soft, i shot 3 big bull caribou in the ribs one day, with my 30-06. I was using 165 balistic tips, and all of those bullets came apart... I've seen quite a few whitetails shot with that bullet that didn't exit...

145 Speers in my 280 Rem... I had them come apart in Caribou, blk. bear and whitetails...

The list could go on and on... BUT, the bullets that always work well for me and "almost" always exit are NP's... (Nosler partitions)

I like the way the nose blows off to give decent expansion at longer ranges/lower velocities and in smaller animals, yet the rear of the bullet at the partition, drives on through! I like them better than any other expanding i've used to date...


I've shot hundreds of them, and they are near perfect for me...

DM

I shot a mule deer at 400 yards with 270 130 gr ballistic tip 2900 fps muzzle, terminal velocity 2000 fps.

It entered 1" above the anus and blew the nose off the animal. In between it shattered the whole length of the spine.

Some hunters have quit on that bullet because it works too well. Not enough meat left. I wished I had passed on that shot. But it does well on the broadside lung shots at 500y.

In over 30 yrs of reloading for varmints and deer ihave seen some strange happenings from 2 major bullet manufacturers.Nosler and speer. Ihave found that the harder you drive the noslers the better they seem to perform. Speer bullets have had complete jacket and core seperations on numerous occasions in several different calibers.I have had the most reliable and predictable results with Sierras.

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THE WORST BULLET IN THE WORLD PUT IN THE RIGHT SPOT IS BETTER THAN THE BEST BULLET IN THE WORLD PUT IN THE WRONG SPOT !!!!!

It is very interesting to see how others have had totally opposite experiences with bullets than what I have had, seen or heard. I did not post this earlier because I did not actually see it, however one of the guys I hunt with shot a hog in the shoulder with a 140 gr. Nos. Ballistic Tip in a 7MM Rem. Mag. He begrudgingly (I think I spelled it right) admitted that the bullet blew up on the shoulder and the hog got away. Said he saw it a few days later and did it in. Said he shot around 120 to 130 yards.

My nephue shot a fairly big whitetail last fall with his 270 Win., using factory Rem. 130 corloks...

The buck came in running, and stopped about 50 FEET from his blind... He got pretty excited, shot too fast and hit it right on the shoulder... It fell, got back up, running about 70 yards over a hill out of sight. After a time he walked that way, saw it lieing down, and shot it in the head... The first shot didn't go beyond the shoulder blade, and blew up to the outside of the deer...

He's not too fond of the 130's now, even thought he's probably shot a dozen deer with them in the past... But, all rib shots...

DM

Sierra and BT's mostly shot by someone else. The Sierras actually for some reason seem to work OK on a .243, actually always exit on deer, which is a mystery. A lot more shooters fail than bullets anyway.

with respect, i'll contend that anyone who asks a bullet to do what it isn't designed to do has no right to cry failure. do the research and pick a bullet that is designed for the hunting and the shot your are going to choose.

I have a very relaxed definition of bullet failure. If the animal dies within within a reasonable distance of where I shot it, the bullet acted perfectly. Of course I get to determine what a reasonable distance is.

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i've had a 6.5mm. nosler ballistic tip blow up on a well placed chest shot deer from about 135 yds. deer went about 25 yds and piled up, though. both lungs were like cheese cloth and no exit. a failure, but not a loss.

To me, this is perfect performance. I don't need a blood trail if the animal dies quickly. One should always match the bullet with the game, though, to get better performance. I would never shoot a bison with a 6.5 100 grain BT, but I surely would with a 140 partition.

By my definition, I have never had a bullet fail. I did have a 308 165BT that did not open, but the deer expired quickly.

I posted the picture to show how far a bullet can fail, and than again, not fail. All 3 bullets hit a shoulder blade. 2 on elk, and 1 on an antelope. All 3 animals died within 3 yards of the hit, if not on the spot. All 3 bullets are Sierra, and the only Sierra bullets I have ever recovered from game animals. All the rest of the Sierra bullets pasted though just fine.

I have no idea how the past through Sierra’s may have failed. Dead animals tell no tails, they’re just dead.

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Originally posted by MickinColo:
...I have no idea how the past through Sierra’s may have failed. Dead animals tell no tails, they’re just dead....

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anyone who asks a bullet to do what it isn't designed to do has no right to cry failure.

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A lot more shooters fail than bullets anyway.

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THE WORST BULLET IN THE WORLD PUT IN THE RIGHT SPOT IS BETTER THAN THE BEST BULLET IN THE WORLD PUT IN THE WRONG SPOT !!!!!

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the failure is in the dipstick who used it, not within the bullet.

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placement FAR out weighs performance on game

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performed exactly as their Design Envelope intended.

Some comments just deserve repeating!

I have never not recovered a deer that I have shot. When I was a kid I used Remington factory 150 gr 30 06. Seven deer taken on these. I started reloading with Seirra Game Kings 150"s and took9 more so I didnt change with what works. My Seirra 220 Gameking reloads took a moose, not me behind the gun and it was my gun damn it. This is my limited experience and it work for me.This last year I didnt hunt do to my knee problems but I was ready with my smoke pole and 30 ca 180 grain w/w and 3006. Boon

I don't care about what the bullet looks like at the end really. I prefer good expansion so I don't mind BTs in 243, 6.5 (but don't like them in 7mm) or heavier 30cals. I really like sierra pro hunters and shoot the 85gr sierra gameking BTHP in 243.

It was the latter bullet that failed. A true failure in that it failed to kill a double lung shot (inside 150yd shot) deer of standard white tail size (actually a fallow spike) within 90minutes.

I shot the deer on foot, saw a great reaction so went on to get into the stand for 90minutes to try for another. Went to pick up the first deer which got up and ran off!

Left it and came back with dog the next morning. Dead 150yards on. Perfect double lung shot with some expansion on the exit side lung. Bullet had entered between a rib. Entry side lung was a pencil hole. MV was 3,300fps....

So that's that rare creature a failure that is recoved and given an autopsy without any interfering second shot etc.

Actually I don't think it's a big issue. The deer was craning forward to eat a twig. I think this displaced it's skin. When shot the skin moved back and covered the entry and exit holes preventing deflation of the lungs. The damage to the lungs didn't provide enough bleeding to cause death by exsanguination and as it couched fairly quickly it didn't asphyxiate.

So is it a bullet failure - not really - just one of those things.

120gr Sierra Gameking loaded in 25-06 Rem. Whitetailed doe ran off after being shot on point of shoulder @ 30'. That happened over 30 years ago from a batch made in Sierra's original Kalifornia location.

I have not used any Sierra bullets on game animals other than varmints ever since. They work fine punching through paper targets, however.

I know a rational person would not condemn a whole line of bullets on just one experience, but I never said I used rational judgment. You know the old Chinese Proverb, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Sorry Sierra, no second chances!

Have had several instances of less than anticipated performance,however the part that actually failed was my expectation.
The bullet did what the bullet does under the conditions I subjected it to.
I learned that if I push a non bonded, non partition, non monolithic cup and core much past 2850 fps that did not have a sectional density of at least 250 then they were likely to not make me happy.

If I pushed the velocity to 3000 fps and above I find no cup and core bullet I will rely upon.
After that velocity threshhold is where the mono's and the bonded bullets really start to pay off.
The partitions will handle both, to a degree, not the best at any one thing, but the very best at the most things.


I figure it kind of like this.
Your driving one day and you step on the brakes to avoid rear ending someone.
Your foot goes to the floor and only through rapid pumping and some prayer do you avoid a crash.
Did your brakes actually fail? nope.
But your a fool if you don't change something before they do.

Either your driving habits, or your brakes.

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I know a rational person would not condemn a whole line of bullets on just one experience, but I never said I used rational judgment. You know the old Chinese Proverb, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Sorry Sierra, no second chances!

same here.....one poor Sierra bullet and it was the last....reason?:....there's way too many really good alternatives to award a second chance.

I am not an expert and most of you shoot far more than me. But I have witnessed weird things with speer bullets so I will not use them. When I was 16 I shot a small bull elk and was using a 30-06 with 180 grain speer spoft point. I admit I was not a good shot and very excited. My first shot went through the neck hitting no bone. THe bullet penciled through. I then shot him just below the brisket hitting the front and the bullet broke the front leg but it did not exit and only small pieces were found. My third shot was perfect hit a rib going in and again no exit and only small pieces of jacket were found. The shots were about 100 to 150 yards as I recall. The bullet acted just like a ballistic tip. I have also had speer hollow points pencil through coyotes. As I recall the loads were not hot loads in my 22-250 and shots were about 100 yards. I have never used a speer bullet since.

The only bullet i have been disatifyed with is the 100 tripple shock in my 257 Ackley imp. it went in and out of 3 deer one was shot twice with a witness and 2 hogs all were at 120-150 yards. The only way i will use them again is if they are the omly bullets i can find.By the way i loved the barnness X bullet never had a failure from 25 cal to 35 cal.Good Luck

Sierra Gamekings and Prohunters...130 grain .277. The Prohunter was loaded at 3000 fps and the range was about 90 feet into the front of the chest as the little muley buck faced me. He died and the inside of his chest looked like blood pudding. I'm not too worried about a bullet blowing up on a deer at that range.

The Gameking was the same load. Bullet entered between ribs behind the left elbow at a measured 210 yards...and blew up. It never hit a bone and didn't exit. That buck died, too, but I consider the bullet to have failed. Some wouldn't say that's a failure, and they're as entitled to their opinion as am I. Exit holes on deer shot with a 270 Win should be the order of the day, IMNSHO.

quote:

Originally posted by tasunkawitko:
with respect, i'll contend that anyone who asks a bullet to do what it isn't designed to do has no right to cry failure. do the research and pick a bullet that is designed for the hunting and the shot your are going to choose.

My thoughts exactly.

But not everyone is as enlightened as us so.. Anyway, it is possible to extend the bullets intended usage a bit by caliber. Tall 6.5 bullets just kill moose in 6.5x55 velocities almost no matter who design them. And by experience, 300 gn sierra gamekings will make coarse salt of both shoulders on any moose even if the jacket never exit the moose.