Rifle: Kimber Montana
Caliber: 300 WSM
Brass: Norma (and some Winchester for practice/plinking)

I wanted to get a general consensus on how much you like to bump the should back on brass used in your hunting rifles. Like many of you, when setting up my body-only sizing dies, I have incrementally adjusted them by feel based upon how the bolt closes. After many years, I caved in and bought one of Sinclair’s headspace insert for my Stoney Point (now Hornady) caliper body. I am very pleased with the consistency of the measurements with it. I sorted through this brass (below) twice and only had to move a couple of pieces of brass from one group to the adjacent one on the second pass.

The brass on the left is the Norma and on the right is the Winchester nickel plated (leftovers from a when I bought a box of factory Ballistic Tips to play with when the Norma was on backorder).

The numbers are sort of arbitrary, but they are sorted by increments of 0.0005”.



First off, this is a very small sample (n = 15 and n = 18), but you can still see that the Norma follows more of a bell shaped distribution, whereas the Winchester shows a slightly smaller standard deviation. This could easily have to do with the fact that the Winchester handloads were all identical, but there were slight variations in experimental powder charges with the Norma brass.

At any rate, here is my question: How much do you guys normally set the should back on your hunting rifles?

Please keep in mind that accuracy is still my main focus, but I don’t like stiff bolts either. In this example, the brass that “feels” the best when I chamber it is the bottom row of Norma in the “44” group and the “43.5” group in the Winchester. The brass at the upper groups is definitely tight and takes some effort to close the bolt.

So what do you guys think?

Question:
How much do you guys normally set the should back on your hunting rifles? (assuming the starting point is set using a case that takes the upper limit of common sense force to close the bolt upon)

Choices:
.001"
.002"
.003"
.004"
.005"
.006"
.007"
.008"
.009"
.010"
More!

 

I am not certain I understand your question.

But, for conversational openers, if I am loading hunting ammo for a hunting rifle, the first thing I do is check the empty new brass to make sure it all will chamber in my rifle.

Then I trim it to a uniform length about .010" shorter then the book maximum OAL, and champfer the necks.

Then I load it and shoot it.

I NEVER set the shoulders back unless and until the brass is difficult to chamber. I don't need benchrest brass or ammo for hunting. And I'd rather spend my time shooting than fiddling with mini-micro brass adjustments which will not likely ever benefit me any in the field.

When I do have to set shoulders back because of chambering problems, then I set it back the least amount which will allow all rounds to chamber easily in that rifle.

quote:

I NEVER set the shoulders back unless and until the brass is difficult to chamber. I don't need benchrest brass or ammo for hunting. And I'd rather spend my time shooting than fiddling with mini-micro brass adjustments which will not likely ever benefit me any in the field.

When I do have to set shoulders back because of chambering problems, then I set it back the least amount which will allow all rounds to chamber easily in that rifle.

+1

In my younger years I spent 100s of hrs and $$$ trying to take my light barrel contour hunting rifles from .75" to .7" or .625" to .5". Every animal I ever killed could never tell the difference. So now if I get a nice sub MOA consitant grouping with the bullet I want and ar a reasonable velocity I'm happy.

Now for my target rifle that is a different story.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
I am not certain I understand your question.

But, for conversational openers, if I am loading hunting ammo for a hunting rifle, the first thing I do is check the empty new brass to make sure it all will chamber in my rifle.

Then I trim it to a uniform length about .010" shorter then the book maximum OAL, and champfer the necks.

Then I load it and shoot it.

I NEVER set the shoulders back unless and until the brass is difficult to chamber. I don't need benchrest brass or ammo for hunting. And I'd rather spend my time shooting than fiddling with mini-micro brass adjustments which will not likely ever benefit me any in the field.

When I do have to set shoulders back because of chambering problems, then I set it back the least amount which will allow all rounds to chamber easily in that rifle.

+2 no shooting benches were I hunt

Ok. Ok. Ok... I get it. Now that I've been chastised for wringing the most of out a "hunting" rifle ,I want to clarify why I specified "hunting rifle" in the first place.

I asked this question in order to gather info for my other varmint and heavy barreled rifles I shoot as well. Having a new measuring gadget allowed me to empirically compare my results with others. Nothing more, nothing less. I just thought it would be fun to see what other were doing now that I could actual compare my work with real numbers and not just "feel". The reason I specified "hunting" rifle is because I have heard of some handloaders bumping the shoulder back a little more for clearance of "dirty" cartridges. I've never really understood this way of thinking, but I suppose if you dropped some ammo in the mud or inadvertently had some debris foul your action from a sloppy ATV ride, then maybe it would be necessary.

I concur with all of you that the necessity of obtaining sub-MOA groups in pencil barreled 6 lb 3 oz rifle that is fired from field positions is futile.

Having said that, I also agree that my time could be better spent shooting but, unfortunately, I can't do that from my living room. I can, however, obsess over my handloads!

So give me a break and take my question(s) with a grain of salt. I am well aware of what is "necessary" and what is not.

Thanks!

My question is one of accuracy.

Given a large(r) group of cases, is there any discernable difference in accuracy between groups?

If not, then the issue of clearance is one of convenience, reliability in chambering etc.

I love wringing "benchrest" accuracy out of all my hunting rifles including my big bores. I'll set a shoulder back when necessary, the smallest amount possible including dangerous game cartridges.

quote:

Now that I've been chastised

Sorry didn't mean too

My simple answer is I have no clue if it is .001 or .01. As AC said when it gets tight I bump it back enough to close without a crush fit.

Alberta Canuck ; X2

Hunting isn't BR shooting and if it is where you hunt You're baiting and lazy !.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc224/375:
Hunting isn't BR shooting and if it is where you hunt You're baiting and lazy !.

I've been on AR for 9 years. I remember the days when one could just ask a question about some esoteric concept not found in the manuals, but rather held in the minds of those well experienced in the field and at the bench. A curious handloader did not have to worry about gratuitous unrelated comments meant to stir shit.

I guess after a couple of thousand posts, however, some people do have egos to uphold. In that case, let me do my part and say...

Thank you for your comment about how hunting doesn't relate to benchrest shooting. I would certainly never apply the concepts and theories of the former to the latter out of fear of becoming lazy.

Thanks again, for your insightful thoughts. I really appreciate it.

====================
And to the 12 people that voted in the poll...

A much more sincere "thank you". All the best!

Kenati, I like you load for max accuracy in my hunting rigs. Lot's of 'benchrest' techniques, or variants thereof in play for me. I like a very slight crush fit, or just a hair of resistance from the case shoulder. I find that is usually about 2 or 3 thou setback. In WSM's I find it is necessary to push the shoulder back some about every other loading--so therfore I do it every time as a matter of habit.

I will tell you a theory that Rod Rogers of Serengeti rifles told me of once, he set his dies up by taking the spring out of his bolt, and sizing the brass such that he could close the bolt with zero resistance with the least amount of sizing possible. He felt this offered him max consistency with max margin for field dependability...pretty interesting theory to me, he told me he figured he averaged pushing the shoulder back about 3 thou, but something he and I also discussed it how much brass varied in springback, even brass from the same lot, same type etc. I use a lot of Win nickel plated brass from factory ammo, I like the factory ammo from Win. It springs back less than other brass I have used, but it also takes more to move it back if that makes any sense.

I voted 3 thou just to give a little margin for error, and think that is pretty minimal sizing of your brass.

Good shooting--Don

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
Kenati, I like you load for max accuracy in my hunting rigs. Lot's of 'benchrest' techniques, or variants thereof in play for me. I like a very slight crush fit, or just a hair of resistance from the case shoulder. I find that is usually about 2 or 3 thou setback. In WSM's I find it is necessary to push the shoulder back some about every other loading--so therfore I do it every time as a matter of habit.

I will tell you a theory that Rod Rogers of Serengeti rifles told me of once, he set his dies up by taking the spring out of his bolt, and sizing the brass such that he could close the bolt with zero resistance with the least amount of sizing possible. He felt this offered him max consistency with max margin for field dependability...pretty interesting theory to me, he told me he figured he averaged pushing the shoulder back about 3 thou, but something he and I also discussed it how much brass varied in springback, even brass from the same lot, same type etc. I use a lot of Win nickel plated brass from factory ammo, I like the factory ammo from Win. It springs back less than other brass I have used, but it also takes more to move it back if that makes any sense.

I voted 3 thou just to give a little margin for error, and think that is pretty minimal sizing of your brass.

Good shooting--Don

I was going to post this earlier. One very famous benchrest shooter (Walt Berger) sets his FL sizing die for the 6ppc this way. He removed the firing pin assembly adjust sizng die till the bolt handle would close on it's own instead of closing it by hand. Article was in Precision Shooting Magazine mid 80's.

I'm sure the way Walt did it has been modified over the years.

just different way to do things

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
It springs back less than other brass I have used, but it also takes more to move it back if that makes any sense... Good shooting--Don

Yes, that makes total sense. I am experiencing the same thing. I am using the Win. Nickle brass just for fun. I won't replace it when the necks (if ever) begin to crack, but they work well enough for practice and plinking loads. Overall, I know nickel is hard on dies, but I meticulously clean the dies before sizing, use a Ti Nitride neck bushing and lube the cases well for both the bump and neck sizing.

The Norma brass is my go-to for all accuracy and hunting loads.

Thanks for posting. I really appreciate it.

quote:

Originally posted by tom holland:
I was going to post this earlier. One very famous benchrest shooter (Walt Berger) sets his FL sizing die for the 6ppc this way. He removed the firing pin assembly adjust sizing die till the bolt handle would close on it's own instead of closing it by hand. Article was in Precision Shooting Magazine mid 80's.

I'm sure the way Walt did it has been modified over the years.

just different way to do things

I really like the theory behind this, 1980's or not. The mechanical principles still hold the true. I never thought of the resistance induced by the firing pin spring when closing the bolt. Good stuff.

A big thank you as well for your response.

quote:

Originally posted by Kenati:
I concur with all of you that the necessity of obtaining sub-MOA groups in pencil barreled 6 lb 3 oz rifle that is fired from field positions is futile. ...

Hey Kenati, I completely disagree that the effort is futile. Perhaps you all meant to say "fruitful". Hunting is where it is far FAR more important to have the Best Possible Load than poking holes in paper will ever be.

No doubt Field positions are less stable than a BenchRest position. Simply means there needs to be more Practice in those positions to achieve the proper mental and muscle discipline.

As for Setting-Back the Shoulder, I do not do it. Your chart needed -0.001" and -0.002" for the Crush Fit conditions I desire. I want a slight Crush Fit to properly align the CenterLine of the Case and the CenterLine of the Chamber, for the best possible chance at getting the Accuracy " I " want(aka Sub-MOA) - in my Hunting rifles.

If however I was Hunting in a more Dangerous place(where critters view me as a snack), then I'd for sure push the Shoulder back so there was no resistance caused by the Case when Cycling the Bolt. Not positive what that distance would be, because I've not wasted money on a Thingy to measure it. And I'd not waste my time removing the Firing Pin and it's Spring.

Having done a good number of Clearance Measurements over the years though, I'll speculate it would be 0.001"-0.002" of Shoulder movement. And in that Dangerous Game condition " I " would accept the fact that the Case Life would be shortened considerably by moving the Shoulder out of the Crush-on-Closing position.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
As for Setting-Back the Shoulder, I do not do it. Your chart needed -0.001" and -0.002" for the Crush Fit conditions I desire.

Thanks for your input, Hot Core. I can understand the desire for a very tight "crush fit," but I am uneasy about closing the bolt on a case so long that it feels like I am about to gall the bolt lugs by doing so. For those, I would have to set the shoulder back or not load them at all.

From what I am gathering here, I think what I have been comfortable with my "by feel" method likely equates to what others are suggesting in the 0.002" to 0.003" setback range. For a target-only rifle I would be comfortable with a 0.001" setback.

Thanks again to everyone for your input and for voting.

I'm guessing in the 0.001-2" range.

This based on 14 TPI die threads. That's a 0.071" bump with a full rev. I find that point where the bolt closes easy (usually take the firing spring and pin out of the bolt assembly for a better "feel")

Generally speaking, I'm only going 1/8 to 1/4 turn beyond where they are hard to chamber. And no, I'm not measuring with any fancy device.

quote:

As for Setting-Back the Shoulder, I do not do it. Your chart needed -0.001" and -0.002" for the Crush Fit conditions I desire. I want a slight Crush Fit to properly align the CenterLine of the Case and the CenterLine of the Chamber, for the best possible chance at getting the Accuracy " I " want(aka Sub-MOA) - in my Hunting rifles.

After you gall the lugs of a rifle bolt you will learn to set the shoulder back a little.

quote:

Originally posted by Kenati:
I can understand the desire for a very tight "crush fit," but I am uneasy about closing the bolt on a case so long that it feels like I am about to gall the bolt lugs by doing so. ...

Hey Kenati, I'd suggest it is more of a "snug" crush fit rather than tight, but it is a semantic difference that doesn't really matter.

I understand your concern about Galling. We have a product in the Carolinas, KY and most of the USA called Grease which prevents Galling. A small wipe of Grease on the back side of the Bolt Lugs prevents Galling on Stainless and constantly Rusing Blue steel. I've used a good many different kinds over the years and they all work - amazing!

I currently use a Synthetic Grease because it is a bit Red which allows me to see where it is located on the Patch very easily. Doesn't take much though, just rub a bit "into" a Patch and then wipe the Patch on the back of the Lugs.
-----

Not arguing with you though. If you want Excess Headspace, short Case Life and less than the Best possible Accuracy, then I support your efforts at shoving the Shoulder back.

Best of luck to you.

Hot Core -

You are a character (and that is intended as a compliment, not an insult). GREASE!! No kidding?! Is that animal, vegetable, or mineral grease? Does it all work? Does it have to be applied hot, or will it work just as well cold? Can it be injected, or does it have to be smeared? Does taste matter? (I prefer to eat the bacon and avocado greases...make ME operate smoother...


You know, with the difference between GO and NO-GO headspace gauges often running about .006", and the MAXIMUM SAAMI dmensions for new brass normally running about .003" LESS than the MINIMUM SAAMI dimensions for chambers, It is really danged seldom I have ever had to worry about setting back brass.

And I, like you, find ammo is really a little more accurate in my rifles when the headspace is around 0". Which I suppose explains why my ammo is often more accurate after the first firing, when the brass has actually expanded forward enough to mo-betta fit the chamber.

Of course, I sometimes set my dies to zize the case 1/4 of a red one shorter, for rifles with almost the stub of a short screw for a bolt handle (No puns here, now!)...but that's for ease of operation, not accuracy.


Oddly enough, I find "zero" headspace to be even more productive of accuracy in my bench guns than in my hunting rifles. Maybe that's because the bench guns actually shoot accurately enough for me to tell what they are doing with the different variations in ammo sizing and loading I have tried.

Anyway, I have never experienced "galling" of my locking lugs, even though I use cases in some guns that are long enough to make me glad the bolt handles on some of both match & hunting rifles are long enough to provide welcome leverage in closing the bolts.

...and the angles on the locking cams don't seem to hurt any either.

I thought I had been using "WAX" to help out on my bolt lugs, but you know, now you've got me guessing. Maybe it IS "grease" that the Kelblys supply in those syringes they send as part of the package when you buy a Panda or some other action from them....

(Yeh, I do know it is grease...was just funnin' ya.)

Hey AC, I've always applied the Grease at "ambient temp", whatever that may have been. I'll guess from the FRIGID terrible 40degs to the BALMY 120+degs. Not sure what it was all made of, but all of them worked. Used good old "RIG" for many MANY years and had zero complaints with it.

I do like wiping the small amount of Grease on with a Patch to avoid putting too much on. I do clean my firearms and Lube them a bit more than what seems to be the norm.

quote:

I prefer to eat the bacon and avocado greases...make ME operate smoother...

(That guy is ready to go.) I don't remember Tasting any of the Firearm Grease . Do REALLY like the Bacon and Ham Tastes though. Have found Prunes and Collards to keep things marching right along. Not sure they are classified as a Grease though.

I do not remember trying any Wax on Locking Lugs, but that could be wrong. I do remember putting over 2-dozen coats of Car Wax on a rifle to protect it from Rain. Might have worked(Gun Rag writer said it would ), but the DEET which was required to retain any Blood in my system during those Hunts cuts through Car Wax like obummer spending "my" money.

quote:

Oddly enough, I find "zero" headspace to be even more productive of accuracy in my bench guns than in my hunting rifles. Maybe that's because the bench guns actually shoot accurately enough for me to tell what they are doing with the different variations in ammo sizing and loading I have tried.

That makes excellent sense to me. Since all my current Firearms(except 1 - 22Rimfire) are really designed for Hunting, I do not have the ability to make that comparison. But, I can see your point.
-----

The nice thing about all this, is we can all do it however we desire. Just like Kenati, if he wants Headspace, then that is exactly the way he should Reload. I just choose to go about it a bit differently as apparently you do too.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.