Do the commercial ammo manufacturers use the same powders we reloaders use? I had read somewhere that Weatherby .257 Wby Mag (I believe manufactured by Norma) uses RL 22 & RL 25. Is there a way to find out what the different manufacturers use in their various rounds short of pulling the bullets and trying to visually identifying the powder? I know I can usually beat their accuracy and consistency with the powder available to me, but there are a few occasions when I can't. Sometimes reaching their listed velocities is a challenge (I know that accuracy is more important than velocity.)

"Do the commercial ammo manufacturers use the same powders we reloaders use?"

NO, not generally. They usually mix different production lots to obtain what they want as it's determinded by "closed bomb" burn rate tests. Those powders that fall into certain narrow burn rates are sold retail as "cannister" powders. That isn't to say we can't get just as good perfomance as the factory stuff, only that our powders are not the same.

"Is there a way to find out what the different manufacturers use in their various rounds short of pulling the bullets and trying to visually identifying the powder?"

NO, we can't even positively identify simular but different canister powders visually.

quote:

Originally posted by Red C.:
Do commercial ammo manufacturers use the same powders we reloaders use?

No. They use proprietary powder that typically produces better velocities than what is available to us.

Well, my answer is also no but for a slightly different reason. The ammo making people call up the powder making people and say send me over a couple of tons of powder kinda around say 4350. And the powder people do. It may be some faster or slower than 4350 so the ammo people's white lab coat people take some in the lab and work up how much is needed to generate xxx amount of pressure in a say 30-06 and then start loading 30-06 ammo until it's used up and then order another couple of tons. That's why store bought ammo can and will vary in velocity between lot numbers.
That is also why a good deal of circumspection should be used when trying to identify powder from a store bought cartridge.

ALL Cartridge manufactures use " CANISTER GRADE POWDERS " The SAME ONES YOU and I purchase !.
Period !. The ONLY DIFFERENCES are they have latitude as far as "additives" , They must ALL use a proprietary tracer or tracers !. It's The LAW !. The Powder manufactures also could and do develop " NEW POWDERS " as well as refine older ones. Which in turn can and are used by cartridge manufactures WITH ADDITIVES AND TRACERS .

Where do all of you think powder comes from ?. Military contracts !.They use slightly different configurations of powder .

If ANY of YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW , PAY an analytical laboratory to give you a definitive analysis of your favorite manufacturers cartridges .Be sure to supply them with small amounts of canister powders .

YOU want to make DAM SURE you contact the lab and explain to them what you want before just SHOWING UP with anything !. Otherwise your address may change rather quickly !.

FBI as well as BATFE has " ALL " of the Known Powder and Explosive Bases & Tracers information already on hand !.
After 911 things got " REAL TOUGH " as far as Asking anything pertaining to those subjects !.

By the way those boys with the white lab coats over in the Powder division don't give a rats ass about " Pressure " their only concern is with stability and burn rates !.

How do I know this ?. I was one of those LAB COATS !.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

quote:

Originally posted by Red C.:
Do the commercial ammo manufacturers use the same powders we reloaders use? I had read somewhere that Weatherby .257 Wby Mag (I believe manufactured by Norma) uses RL 22 & RL 25. Is there a way to find out what the different manufacturers use in their various rounds short of pulling the bullets and trying to visually identifying the powder? I know I can usually beat their accuracy and consistency with the powder available to me, but there are a few occasions when I can't. Sometimes reaching their listed velocities is a challenge (I know that accuracy is more important than velocity.)

I'm guessing Dr. K pretty well covered it but the manufacturers to have the advantage of testing different lots of powders so they keep consistent... By the way, the 257 Wby (Norma is the maker) would more then likely use it's own powders MRP and MRP2... You'll find that they are the equivalent of RL22 and RL 25 respectively ..

Ken....

quote:

ALL Cartridge manufactures use " CANISTER GRADE POWDERS " The SAME ONES YOU and I purchase !.
Period !. The ONLY DIFFERENCES are they have latitude as far as "additives" , They must ALL use a proprietary tracer or tracers !. It's The LAW !. The Powder manufactures also could and do develop " NEW POWDERS " as well as refine older ones. Which in turn can and are used by cartridge manufactures WITH ADDITIVES AND TRACERS

Have things changed? It used to be that what cartridge manufacturers used was, for example, IMR 4895, but it had a slightly different burn rate, pressure curve. All due to the lot to lot varience encountered in the manufacturing process.

What we used to get was "blended" IMR 4895. Dupont would blend fast/slow lots to get a pressure curve/burn rate that was consistant with every other lot of IMR4895 released to the public.

Are powder manufacturers now blending their powders before release to ammo makers and the public?

Hey Doc, I have a question for you. What "Additives" and what are "Tracers"? Are these things available to handloaders as well? If not, then wouldn't the answer to RedC's question be NO, Ammo manufacturer's use powders that are Not the same as canister powders and are not available to handloaders.

The answer is a BIG NO! Canister grade powders are for RELOADERS- the burn rate for different lots fall very close to each other, manufacturers use OEM grade powders-the burn rate for different lots can be SEVERAL spaces off. Come on guys this stuff in in the front of about every powder manual I've ever read, and that's a few.

I don't really know how to answer about additives as there are several methods of formulation changes !. NO they are not available to the general public , neither are the tracers . These are specific to EACH manufacturer . This is in case some twisted type decides he or she is going to use something , for other than their intended purpose !.

You and I can purchase the EXACT materials for making Paper Money , how ever what we would be missing is the correct portion formula plus one item that's not available to us !.

In a way it's kind of like Powders , they ALL use canister powders for all intent and purpose Just like you and I purchase . How ever we are missing a couple of things . This does NOT necessarily benefit Pressure or Burn rate or any useful factor to the powder it's self !. ONLY to identify Whose powder it is !!!.

With that said some manufactures use a duplex or even a triplex load which WE CAN'T because that Powder is proprietary in it's manufacture !.
How ever it's not popular nor practical .

It's not 2 or 3 separate powders it's simply a special type of one powder !. Most DON'T .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

What’s the difference between Non-Canister and Canister grade powder?

Non-canister grade powder is supplied to commercial ammunition manufacturers only. Powder producers use a formula to produce the next batch of powder, one would think that if the same formula was used the powder would be exactly alike. It’s not, that’s why the ammunition manufacturer has a complete ballistic lab. The lab tests each lot of powder received to determine what an appropriate charge weight is. The loaded round must meet all preset velocity & pressure specifications.

Canister-grade powders are made for sale to the general public. They are blended for consistency. They are as close ballistically to the last lot of powder as can be made possible. copy/pasted

quote:

Posted 20 February 2008 21:55 Hide Post
ALL Cartridge manufactures use " CANISTER GRADE POWDERS " The SAME ONES YOU and I purchase !.
Period !. The ONLY DIFFERENCES are they have latitude as far as "additives" , They must ALL use a proprietary tracer or tracers !. It's The LAW !. The Powder manufactures also could and do develop " NEW POWDERS " as well as refine older ones. Which in turn can and are used by cartridge manufactures WITH ADDITIVES AND TRACERS .

Where do all of you think powder comes from ?. Military contracts !.They use slightly different configurations of powder .

If ANY of YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW , PAY an analytical laboratory to give you a definitive analysis of your favorite manufacturers cartridges .Be sure to supply them with small amounts of canister powders .

YOU want to make DAM SURE you contact the lab and explain to them what you want before just SHOWING UP with anything !. Otherwise your address may change rather quickly !.

FBI as well as BATFE has " ALL " of the Known Powder and Explosive Bases & Tracers information already on hand !.
After 911 things got " REAL TOUGH " as far as Asking anything pertaining to those subjects !.

By the way those boys with the white lab coats over in the Powder division don't give

Doc, I think you are mistaken about the "tracers" "fingerprints "being put into small arms propellents- pretty sure it's reserved for blasting powders and explosives.
As far as canister powders, I know you are wrong, you see I have looked at many drums of OEM powders, in big letters it says- NON CANISTER SMOKELESS POWDER, you know what there primers are OEM too, commercial use only- not for resale, I posted pictures on another forum and the questions started, where can I get that? You can't unless you have a Ammunition Manufacture License from BATF

they use the same powders, but have labs to set the laod and if they like, blend.. no different than you backing off a couple grains when you get a new lot of powder.

for example, olin publishs their loads for winchester powders and ammo .. as they are winchster



no tagants in small arms powder, that bill was defeated and never became law

Doc,

I remember, prior to 9/11 that my reloads performed with a certain powder in a certain way, with a lot to lot consistancy that was accpetable.

About a year after 9/11, it seems those same powders and reloads lost or changed and it was more difficult to find the previous accuracy.

That said, do the tracers have an adverse effect on powder performance and consistancy?

quote:

Doc,

I remember, prior to 9/11 that my reloads performed with a certain powder in a certain way, with a lot to lot consistancy that was accpetable.

About a year after 9/11, it seems those same powders and reloads lost or changed and it was more difficult to find the previous accuracy.

That said, do the tracers have an adverse effect on powder performance and consistancy?

______________________________

You have a vivid imagination!

quote:

In a way it's kind of like Powders , they ALL use canister powders for all intent and purpose Just like you and I purchase . How ever we are missing a couple of things . This does NOT necessarily benefit Pressure or Burn rate or any useful factor to the powder it's self !. ONLY to identify Whose powder it is !!!.

I have not worked in a lab, but I have read descriptions from old AMCP pamphlets on powder acceptance. From what I read was that different lots of IMR 4895 (for example) will give different burn rates and pressure curves. Perhaps you are measuring the chemical composition of the powder, and that is close enough that all lots of IMR 4895 are indistinguishable?

That would explain Taggents.

Perhaps this is a discussion of Intensive and Extensive properties? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intensive_and_extensive_properties

Wow, I really got into a hornets nest here. The question that comes to mind now is whether the commercial ammo manufacturers powders would be considered "better" than ours, or just different in that they mix theirs so it always has the same burn rate and pressure curve, whereas we're stuck with the burn rate and pressure curve of the powder lot we received. This would indicate why accuracy could vary a little from canister to canister for our powders Unless they do, indeed, mix lots of their powder so we get as close to nearly the same, say, Varget as we got three canisters (and two years) ago?

The answer is no. Manufacturers use special powder blends that must meet their criteria in terms of pressure curve, velocity, etc. and which is not sold commercially. Here's a reply I got from Norma some time ago :

Dear Mr Andre' Mertens, I got your mail from Mr Falk who asked me for info in this case.

Sorry to tell you the powder who we use in the 9,3x74R/ Alaska is a special production powder not available in canisters for "homeloaders".

But try one of this loads below.

Norma 201 48,0 - 50,8 gr and max cart.lenght 94,5mm
gives Vo626 -668 m/s.
Norma 202 53,0 - 55,6 gr
664 - 698.
Norma 203-B 56,0 - 58,8gr
665 -713.

I hope one of this will help you a little and work well for you, my bet is the 203-B loads.


Best regard Ã…ke Nilsson R&D-dep.



Från: André Mertens [mailto:andre.mertens@coditel.net]
Skickat: den 14 september 2005 18:09
Till: lennart.falk@norma.cc

quote:

Originally posted by swheeler:

quote:

Doc,

I remember, prior to 9/11 that my reloads performed with a certain powder in a certain way, with a lot to lot consistancy that was accpetable.

About a year after 9/11, it seems those same powders and reloads lost or changed and it was more difficult to find the previous accuracy.

That said, do the tracers have an adverse effect on powder performance and consistancy?

______________________________

You have a vivid imagination!

Well the occurance I refer to is documented. The only thing I cannot figure out was why it happened.

The powders MAY occasionally be the same, but not always. In fact, they are seldom the same.

That is WHY there are cannistered powders. Uncannistered powders are tested by the ammunition factories and the charges adjusted so that the desired performance and pressure curve can be safely achieved.

Cannistered powders are blended by the manufactuers/packagers so that anyone can safely use the same charges in all instances except when loading at maximum pressures.

The differences between lots of powders can be very significant, even when the factory is trying to manufacture exactly the same powder. Why? Because even though powder chemistry is a relatively exact science in theory, it is not a PERFECT science in the real world.

For instance, the lots of IMR-4895 released by the military as surplus have varied in burning rates all the way from a rate approximating IMR-3031, to a rate nearly the same as IMR-4350. For the loading companies with labs that is not a problem. Their lab tests indicate how much they should use behind a particular bullet in a given cartridge to obtain the desired performance.

For the handloader those same surplus lots might be (and have been at times) a disaster. Thus the importance for many unsophisticated handloaders of buying cannistered powders.

Cannistered lots of 4895 are put together by blending various lots to come up with a mixed powder that closely matches the performance of a "master" sample of 4895 kept by the manufacturers.

It is the same with all cannistered powders and their uncannistered bretheren, regardless of powder name or manufacturer.

I have long been aware of lot to lot variations with powders. I would also say that IMR has been one of my favorite go to powders because of their consistancy between lots.

But there was a significant change; more than I had ever experienced before. It was also noticed in two cartridges for which I use two different IMR powders. Both loads changed in the same time frame.

It was prior to Hodgedons buying of IMR, so I could not blame a change of ownership. One of the first things I suspected was the introduction of taggants, not because a law would require it, but because the companies are willing to co-operate voluntarily.

Hey, all I want is the accuracy that I had, then lost, and cannot seem to duplicate again.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Cannistered powders are blended by the manufactuers/packagers so that anyone can safely use the same charges in all instances except when loading at maximum pressures.

I think that statement would need to be qualified - by defining "except when loading at maximum pressures" - in order to be true. How close to max? Unless the load is, say, 10% under max, the statement isn't true.

"Consistent" isn't a word that I would use to describe today's canister grade propellants. The lot to lot difference can be significant and is not always noticed in single barrel rifles unless a chronograph is used.

quote:

Originally posted by mike_elmer:
I would also say that IMR has been one of my favorite go to powders because of their consistancy between lots.

I've used them for years and still do, but in my experience IMR's canister powders are among the least consistent.

A load using the same case, bullet, and primer - but with different lots of IMR 4350 - fired back to back through the same rifle over the same chronograph on the same day = 200 fps difference. The rifle was a double, and DR regulation is usually sensitive to velocity. The old load shot into 1" at 50 yards with irons, but the same charge of a new lot of the same powder was 200 fps slower and the barrels printed 4" wide at 50. A 10% increase in the charge with the new lot was necessary to match the same velocity and regulation as the old. In the 15 years of using IMR 4350 in that rifle since, the charge has always changed between powder lots in order to get the same velocity and regulation. Last time it changed 6%.

Some canister grade powders do seem to be more consistent than others, though. Alliant Reloder 15 seems to be pretty consistent. Some years ago, though, I had a double re-regulated with a load that used 70.5 grains of it, and haven't been able to reach that with subsequent lots since.

Yes, factory ammunition is usually loaded with non-canister grade propellants that can vary a great deal from lot to lot, and can differ considerably from the canister grade that we buy over the counter. The manufacturers have the pressure testing equipment to adjust for the difference between lots. Also, some manufacturers load factory ammunition with blended propellants (meaning blends of different powders, as opposed to blends of different lots of the same powder).
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Sako used to publish the powder and charge weights of their ammunition. All powder was Vihtavuori.

I'm seldom wrong concerning areas of explosives , how ever not perfect by any means .

I'm NOT mistaken about signatures in powders manufactured in this country . As I didn't " Work " in other country's I can't know What requirements they impose .

If ANY of YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW , PAY an analytical laboratory to give you a definitive analysis of your favorite manufacturers cartridges .Be sure to supply them with small amounts of canister powders .

YOU want to make DAM SURE you contact the lab and explain to them what you want before just SHOWING UP with anything !. Otherwise your address may change rather quickly !.

FBI as well as BATFE has " ALL " of the Known Powder and Explosive Bases & Tracers information already on hand !.

As I have already stated .

You are confusing your self as to Non canister And Canister powders !. Just like Resins and a zillion other products . BULK is BULK is Canister Powder !.

Do you think Remington orders 250K 8 lb kegs of what ever flavor 4831 ?. NO ! , they have BULK powder delivery package systems of virtually the same powder your purchasing. Do you really think reloaders are " Special People " in which they manufacture powder just for US ?. Some of you really need to WAKE UP !.

I will say one thing as to lots of powder there are parameters in which we HAD TO STAY WITH IN !. Perfect only in ones dreams NO some batches were closer than others how ever " ALL " were with in spec. other wise it was made into ?.

Powders " HAVE CHANGED " so have cars so have food prices . Nothing remains the same .
Look at different loading manuals NEW and OLD check YOUR favorite Calibers Load . Notice anything ?, MANY HAVE CHANGED on Max grains allowable !.

One Last thing on Powders . Take pity on this Moron !. Because I haven't worked in that field in over 20 years now !. So maybe EVERYTHING is different I DON'T KNOW ?. I some how doubt it's changed all that much , I still have a few friends and contacts in the industry .


Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

Post 9/11 tracers and taggarts are all well and good but the fact remains that ammo factories DO NOT have to use the same powder as the OTC cannister powder we buy. Nor is the powder that is supplied to them held to the narrow windows of performances that must be observed when manufacturing OTC cannister powder because of the legal issues. The ammo factories have the capacity to analyze the performance level of the powder and adjust their loadings; the home crafter does not. When we buy a can of 4350, we expect 4350 performance. And it doesn't make any difference whether BATFE has made them dye it blue or attach little locater chips to it. If it doesn't give use 4350 performance, some bottom feeder lawyer is gonna start screaming "sue 'em sue 'em".

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.K:
I'm seldom wrong concerning areas of explosives , how ever not perfect by any means .

I'm NOT mistaken about signatures in powders manufactured in this country . As I didn't " Work " in other country's I can't know What requirements they impose .

If ANY of YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW , PAY an analytical laboratory to give you a definitive analysis of your favorite manufacturers cartridges .Be sure to supply them with small amounts of canister powders .

YOU want to make DAM SURE you contact the lab and explain to them what you want before just SHOWING UP with anything !. Otherwise your address may change rather quickly !.

FBI as well as BATFE has " ALL " of the Known Powder and Explosive Bases & Tracers information already on hand !.

As I have already stated .

You are confusing your self as to Non canister And Canister powders !. Just like Resins and a zillion other products . BULK is BULK is Canister Powder !.

Do you think Remington orders 250K 8 lb kegs of what ever flavor 4831 ?. NO ! , they have BULK powder delivery package systems of virtually the same powder your purchasing. Do you really think reloaders are " Special People " in which they manufacture powder just for US ?. Some of you really need to WAKE UP !.

I will say one thing as to lots of powder there are parameters in which we HAD TO STAY WITH IN !. Perfect only in ones dreams NO some batches were closer than others how ever " ALL " were with in spec. other wise it was made into ?.

Powders " HAVE CHANGED " so have cars so have food prices . Nothing remains the same .
Look at different loading manuals NEW and OLD check YOUR favorite Calibers Load . Notice anything ?, MANY HAVE CHANGED on Max grains allowable !.

One Last thing on Powders . Take pity on this Moron !. Because I haven't worked in that field in over 20 years now !. So maybe EVERYTHING is different I DON'T KNOW ?. I some how doubt it's changed all that much , I still have a few friends and contacts in the industry .


Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
The differences between lots of powders can be very significant, even when the factory is trying to manufacture exactly the same powder. Why? Because even though powder chemistry is a relatively exact science in theory, it is not a PERFECT science in the real world.

For instance, the lots of IMR-4895 released by the military as surplus have varied in burning rates all the way from a rate approximating IMR-3031, to a rate nearly the same as IMR-4350. For the loading companies with labs that is not a problem. Their lab tests indicate how much they should use behind a particular bullet in a given cartridge to obtain the desired performance.

For the handloader those same surplus lots might be (and have been at times) a disaster. Thus the importance for many unsophisticated handloaders of buying cannistered powders.

Cannistered lots of 4895 are put together by blending various lots to come up with a mixed powder that closely matches the performance of a "master" sample of 4895 kept by the manufacturers.

It is the same with all cannistered powders and their uncannistered bretheren, regardless of powder name or manufacturer.

Correct...and that's why the manufacturers are so careful to point out the difference to handloaders.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

virtually the same powder your purchasing.

virtually : almost entirely : nearly
Come on Doc you can't have it both ways! Your talking like a lawyer or politition, out of BOTH sides of your mouth. Now I'm sure you are an EXPERT and a SPECIALIST, do you want me to give you the definitions of those? Anybody can make a mistake, even a few mispoken words doesn't make you an idiot, yet!

AC ; Correct the world isn't perfect neither are any of it's inhabitants . As I stated about manufacturing .

I think what a few of us are still missing is the concept of Why Powders were developed . Originally for Industrial Military purposes .

Hand loaders didn't exist . ( Don't go off on me about Blk Pwd shooters ) . Surplus powders such as Hodgons sold , was " Military surplus " in the beginning . Not any more . If there are over runs on Mil contract productions you had better bet WE are BUYING IT in more ways than one !. How ever it may need to be blended or Mixed for a more consistent Burn Test .

Others who now sell surplus powders come by it some times by removing projectiles from cartridges . Selling each of the left over components .

Canister grade or OTC powders are NOT SURPLUS , they are manufactured for their specific purposes . Cartridge manufactures can
and do at any time change what ever component they feel is in their best interest for sales or marketing .

They still how ever use Powders which are manufactured by EVERY company YOU and I can purchase powder from . Military Industrial Canister grade is ALL the Same , Yet different !. Military 4895 is IMR 4895 or H 4895 it FALLS in that same " Burn Rate parameter !. It's not Always top grade and has far more margin for error than your 4895 you purchase OTC.

Now if your purchasing Mil Surplus that can be different ? , by age and how far up or down the tolerance to the Burn test was allowed to go through . War manufacturing isn't picky about changes in pressures like BR people are .

Cartridge people DON'T ALTER POWDERS !. They ask for a specific Burn and QC Lots and GET IT !.

I don't know how I could be more clear than that . They don't have type 14787 powder made in which you can't purchase . It's OTC already manufactured and tested . They could how ever ask for a New Powder to be made or modified 4007SSC !. How ever we can purchase it eventually Sales and Marketing wouldn't have it ANY OTHER WAY !. Follow the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ...

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.K:
AC ; Correct the world isn't perfect neither are any of it's inhabitants . As I stated about manufacturing .

I think what a few of us are still missing is the concept of Why Powders were developed . Originally for Industrial Military purposes .

Hand loaders didn't exist . ( Don't go off on me about Blk Pwd shooters ) . Surplus powders such as Hodgons sold , was " Military surplus " in the beginning . Not any more . If there are over runs on Mil contract productions you had better bet WE are BUYING IT in more ways than one !. How ever it may need to be blended or Mixed for a more consistent Burn Test .

Others who now sell surplus powders come by it some times by removing projectiles from cartridges . Selling each of the left over components .

Canister grade or OTC powders are NOT SURPLUS , they are manufactured for their specific purposes . Cartridge manufactures can
and do at any time change what ever component they feel is in their best interest for sales or marketing .

They still how ever use Powders which are manufactured by EVERY company YOU and I can purchase powder from . Military Industrial Canister grade is ALL the Same , Yet different !. Military 4895 is IMR 4895 or H 4895 it FALLS in that same " Burn Rate parameter !. It's not Always top grade and has far more margin for error than your 4895 you purchase OTC.

Now if your purchasing Mil Surplus that can be different ? , by age and how far up or down the tolerance to the Burn test was allowed to go through . War manufacturing isn't picky about changes in pressures like BR people are .

Cartridge people DON'T ALTER POWDERS !. They ask for a specific Burn and QC Lots and GET IT !.

I don't know how I could be more clear than that . They don't have type 14787 powder made in which you can't purchase . It's OTC already manufactured and tested . They could how ever ask for a New Powder to be made or modified 4007SSC !. How ever we can purchase it eventually Sales and Marketing wouldn't have it ANY OTHER WAY !. Follow the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ...

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

SPECIALIST:: "one who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows practically everything about nothing"
EXPERT: ex- a has been , spert-a drip under pressure

Cannistered lots of 4895 are put together by blending various lots to come up with a mixed powder that closely matches the performance of a "master" sample of 4895 kept by the manufacturers.

NO NO NO !. Blending various lots is a Standard practice for Mil Contract not OTC Powder !.

I never have seen a " Master Sample " ? What does that look like ?. We only used formulas to approximate a specific burn rate .

Perhaps some of you including Nitro 400 should look at Burn charts or Closed Bomb test results do different burn charts list the same powders in exact order of fastest too slowest ?.

I have a whole pile of shovels and can get to the truth , the dirt piling up is on you !.

Are your Hand Loads more accurate than factory stuff ?. I rest my pinky's now .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.K:
Cannistered lots of 4895 are put together by blending various lots to come up with a mixed powder that closely matches the performance of a "master" sample of 4895 kept by the manufacturers.

NO NO NO !. Blending various lots is a Standard practice for Mil Contract not OTC Powder !.

I never have seen a " Master Sample " ? What does that look like ?. We only used formulas to approximate a specific burn rate .

Perhaps some of you including Nitro 400 should look at Burn charts or Closed Bomb test results do different burn charts list the same powders in exact order of fastest too slowest ?.

I have a whole pile of shovels and can get to the truth , the dirt piling up is on you !.

Are your Hand Loads more accurate than factory stuff ?. I rest my pinky's now .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

Oh, I think your posts on this string speak for themselves.


----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Do commercial ammo manufacturers use the same powders we reloaders use?

In all honesty I really don't have a clue!!! After reading this thread I conclude that most of the folks that posted here don't either!!!

quote:

Do the commercial ammo manufacturers use the same powders we reloaders use?

Yes and no!! stillbeeman is essentially correct. SOME of the powders they use could be exactly the same, and many are definitely NOT! The burning rates of the powders they use can vary significantly from lot ot lot- and they load to pressure and velocity specs, NOT powder charge weights. In addition, some powders used by the ammo makers (vis Hornady Light Magnums & Federal Hi-Energy ammo) are types that have NEVER been sold to the reloading trade, yet some look just exactly like stuff we can buy commercially. Such powders are hardly "canister-grade" powders!

For example, H4831, salvaged after WWII from 20mm cannon ammo and sold to handloaders by Hodgdon in the early days, was originally described to the reloading trade as "4350 data powder". At that time, no-one in the reloading public anyway, knew the stuff was much slower than DuPont's 4350 (at that time there was only one 4350!!) and that 4831 could safely be loaded in amounts quite a bit larger than could 4350, and would produce much higher velocities when so loaded, and at lower pressures to boot! All we knew was it looked like 4350, and if we used book maximums give for 4350 with it, the loads were safe. It took guys of an experimental bent like Jack O'Connor to discover that you could use more of it than of 4350, and you'd get higher velocities at safe pressures!

NEVER try to identify a powder in commercial ammo by appearance! You might find that it looks exactly like some powder you are familiar with. But appearances, in this case, can be very misleading!!

IF you pull some bullets, and find "X" grains of powder in them, with "Y" bullets, you are safe using the powder to re-create the same load using the same brass and bullet type & weight. But that is the extent of it!!

Stick with known powders, in properly labelled containers, and use them according to reloading manual recommendations or your personal loading data/records that you've gathered through experience over the years!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Do commercial ammo manufacturers use the same powders we reloaders use?

In all honesty I really don't have a clue!!! After reading this thread I conclude that most of the folks that posted here don't either!!!

I surely agree with this statement, 100%....at least in relation to SOME of the folks here. Maybe not "most of the folks", but surely some....


Cannistered powders are manufactured to a formula, true enough. BUT, those powders do NOT automatically come out as cannister spec-compliant powders ready for sale. They ARE useable as powders for ammo factories, which have the necessary labs to provide the relevant required info about their performance(s). To the extent their performance varies from the cannister specs, they are different powders than those available to handloaders, even if they bear the same designations. They are blended to meet cannister specs, and become safely saleable propellants for handloaders.

To say otherwise is, at best......well, whatever you want to call it, but not something I would personally want to take to the bank.

Fits right in though with statements, such as one posted in another thread about powders being graphited to regulate their burning rates. Wrong. Graphite is added to cut down on friction when the nitrocellulose is in the "green" powder stage. Nitrocellulose is highly susceptible to ignition by static electricity, and the graphite reduces the creation of static electricity when the powder is being dried. Various other compounds are used to modify burning rates, some as coatings, others as an integral part of the powder compounds themselves.

And there was the statement about nitro glycerine being the result of two acids interacting, with the glycerine being added as a stabilizer. Again, wrong. The glycerine is an ingredient contributing to creation of a explosive compound. It is done by treating the glycerine with several times its own weight of strong Nitric acid. For every molecule of that interaction, 3 molecules of plain old water are freed by the reaction. Sulpheric acid is then added to combine with the water, as part of the process of separating the water from the nitroglycerine produced. Both the nitric and sulpheric acids are then re-cycled (rather than dumped), by distillation.

Guess it is time to move on though, before this becomes something like trying to discuss Taoist philosophy with a brick wall.

Best wishes to all, both readers and participants.

AC; I hear you loud and clear. Here is an ad to view;
WC297 Virgin, (Little slower than WC296) This OEM powder is used by commercial loaders use for 357-44 Magnum, 89.99 for 8 lbs.

OK Doc; run up to your local sporting goods store and buy a pound of Win 297 ball powder, be sure you get the one with the tagant in it.