I've always liked the ballitic tips. It was all a matter of knowing your shot. I used 180's in an '06 on 3 bull elk knowing that although the load was incredibly accurate, I would have to be more choosy in my shot placement. Two were on bulls broadside-complete penetration. The other was a large bull, and he was running downslope below me at about 100yds (in the open). After the first shot he turned and headed right towards me and I shot him under the chin square in the neck. It was lights out, but the bullet did not fully penetrate the spine.

Just shot about a 130# whitetail this morning with a 308 and factory rem premier BT's (165). Quartering to me and below me I placed one round at the forward edge of the shoulder and 1/3 down. Small hole in, only 1/2" hole out on the far side after penetrating the shoulder.

Also shot a 200lb whitetail a few years ago with a 338 WM and the 200gr BT. Recovered the bullet against the hide on the rear ham after it had smashed through the point of the shoulder on the entrance, and traversed through the entire body. Probably about 40-50 inches of penetration. Perfect mushroom and plenty of lead in the jacket yet.

There have been quite a few deer besides with an '06 and 165's, and a 6.5X55 and 120's.

I've always liked the accuracy the BT's exhibit, and their RELIABLE perfomance on deer-sized game. I know that they will expand fairly rapidly, but I also know they kill and anchor game when I do what I am supposed to.

To each his own, use Hornady, Sierra, whatever...I happen to like the Nosler Ballistic Tip for my deer hunting ans will likely continue to use AND RECOMMEND them all the while informing the recipient of this recommendation on what to expect in the way of bullet performance and shot placement.

Just my thoughts, no agreement necessary.

Thanks for the insight Matt. I too use Nosler 338 caliber 200 gr, ballistic tips in my 338-06 for deer & like them a lot.

I've only used them in the .270 in 130 and 150gr. I've never recovered a bullet, and all deer have dropped instantly with one shot.

the 140's in my 7 mag worked this week on a good sized buck. hit him right behind the shoulder from 100 or so yards. it tore through his heart and lungs. i missesed the major all shoulder bones. my dad shot one a little smaller than the one got with a 140 barnes in his 30-06 there was less damage on the entrance but more on the exit holes. im going to stick with the 140's because they work.

I have taken over 30 head of big game including deer,sheep and pronghorn with 140gr ballistic tips out of my 7mm stw and 7mm-08,100gr ballistic tips out of my 257wby and moose and elk with 180gr ballistic tips out of my 300ultramag.To date none have required tracking and not one bullet has failed in my opinion.I use only lungshots and kills are clean and quick.

Again, THANKS for the replies, they have been very interesting to read.

If you recall my original post about the young man who came to me "pissed off" because I had recommended tha 180 gr Ballistic Tip in the 300 Win Mag for deer hunting. He had shot a large buck and hit him at least twice for sure and lost hit.

The land owner really gave the kid hell for his lack of knowledge in selecting a bullet for hunting these "huge" whitetails that are on his property.

Well fellas, this last weekend, this young hunter came back to my shop and had a very interesting story to tell me and I wanted to pass it on to you.

This landowner is also the young mans boss, he works as a hired hand on the range. The owner allowed the young man to go with him on his hunt. As they were driving down a road which seperated a wheat field from a hill side, they spotted a herd of 20 or so whitetails 60 yards up one of the small draws.

The landowner stopped the truck and grabbed his 300 RUM loaded with Nosler Partitions. The young man doesn't know what weight the boss was using or the velocity which they were loaded at. Know what I do of the guy, they were full tilt nomatter the bullet weight.

Well in this herd was a pig of a whitetail, I quess it was an even 6x6 with about a 22" spread and they boss guessed it to be a +170 B&C buck. I do trust his opinion because he has many huge bucks to his credit.

Anyway, this huge buck never even noticed the hunters until he got slammed at 60 yards with the Partition out of the 300 RUM.

The big buck simply hunched up and ran away, and never looked back. He jumped the fence and got onto the same property that the buck that the young man got into and lost. This time the neighbor would not let the hunters go look for the buck and said they needed to learn to shoot better.

I don't totally agree with the neighbor as far as not letting them search for the wounded deer but do agree about the marksmenship of these two hunters.

The young hunter simply started laughing as the big buck left the country and I quess almost got fired for doing it but I had to chuckle myself a bit.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing funny about loosing any game animal that has been wounded, in fact it is one of the most sickening things in the world, but for this land owner to tear this kid down so bad about the loads he was using, he just set himself up for failure and in my opinion, got his comings.

The young hunter is now totally confused about bullet choice. If the premium partition bullet won't anchor a whitetail at 60 yards then what will.

My response was one that I have given several who ask me about bullet selection. My opinion of the Partition is very high, IF USED CORRECTLY!!!!

Just as with the Ballistic Tips, the partitions also have their weaknesses. Use a good medium to heavy for caliber Partition at a velocity between 2400 fps and 3100 fps and you will probably be just fine with great performance.

Take a Partition, any Partition and drive it over 3200 fps and engage a target at under 100 yards and your asking for a big problem. Let me explain why:

Quite a few years ago, I was preparing for an elk hunt here in Montana and decided to use my Ruger M77mkII in 7mm Rem Mag. This rifle loves the 140 gr Ballistic Tip and Ballistic Silvertip, averaging 3/4" groups with a velocity of 3350 fps.

I wanted to stay with the 140 gr bullet as we would be hunting in a spike only area and there was no need for a real heavy bullet for a spike elk which if lucky would top 400 pounds. I decided to try the 140 gr Partition and accuracy was great, damn near right there with the Ballisitic Tips and velocity was close at an even 3300 fps.

I knew from several animals how the 140 gr BT's performed but had never played with the Partitions in this weight so I set up four one gallon milk jugs filled with water and hammered them at 100 yards. Looked like old faithful from the bench.

Confident I had the baddest elk killer on the planet I walked up to inspect the damage. All four jugs had ruptures but only the first two had been fully penetrated and only the leading edge on the third jug. The fourth simply split from the impact pressure.

I also found the bullet in the mud under the jugs. It was a mangled mess of copper and lead, didn't look at all like the pretty mushrooms that a partition is supposed to look at. I filled four more jugs and shot them from a standing 50 yards. This time the bullet was found in the second jug, even though it had broken all the jugs again with the stress of the impact.

I was totally baffled. I went back to the bench, filled another four jugs, set them up and fired one of my trusty 140 gr Ballistic Tip loads into them.

The Ballistic Tip lost all of it core but did manage to penetrate into the fourth jug from 100 yards, but why???

I took all three bullets back to my loading bench to inspeck them. The Ballistic Tip, even without a core still weighted close to 70 grains or about 50% of its original weight.

The partitions on the other had weighted between 50 and 60 grains. The reason is quite simple. The Partition is designed to expand very easily and usually all the time loose the entire front lead core, this is by design to cause tissue damage. This is great as long as the partition in the bullet can withstand the stress of the impact after the front core is gone. At velocities above 3200 fps this seldom happens.

If the partition is ruptured, there is nothing hardly at all to keep the rear core in place and it is almost always lost as well. Along with this, large parts of the jacket wall are often torn off further reducing the weight of the bullet and penetration is very limited.

The Ballistic Tips on the other hand expand in a very different way then most expanding bullets. Most recovered Ballistic Tips look like a sock that had been pulled inside out, and yes, often teh core is missing or mostly gone.

But because the Ballistic Tips don't split at the tip of the bullet like a conventional expanding bullet such as a Core-Lokt or such, they often have less jacket fragement and fall away from the penetrating bullet, also the intact jacket penetrates more efficiently because of its shape compared to other conventional bullets.

This is why the Ballisitic Tip out penetrated the Partition in this case and usually all cases when velocities are above 3200 fps.

Don't get me wrong, if both are used correctly, the Partition is a much better bullet for larger game hunting, but if used incorrectly they are just as weak as any bullet.

For hunting deer size game with standard calibers I would fully endorse the Partition and Ballistic Tips.

For deer hunting with one of the new larger magnums, that being a round with a case capacity over 90 grains, or the potential for velocities over 3200 fps, I would recommend using either the heaviest Ballistic Tips for that caliber or the heaviest partition unless you limit yourself to no shots under 150-200 yards.

Believe it or not, if a same weight Ballistic Tip and Partition are fired at the same 3400 fps at close range into the same test medium, the ballistic Tip will almost always match the penetration of the partition because the partition will fail and give up to much bullet weight. Back up to 200 yards and the Partition turns into the famed bullet it is.

So what bullet did I sellect for the hunt, a 150 gr Ballistic Tip at 3250 fps. Never got a chance to test it on game.

I told this young hunter this story and even showed him the bullets from those tests and others in 30 caliber from similiar tests with my 300 RUM. Take a 150 gr Partition at 3550 fps and see how deep it penetrates, it will explode just as violently as a Ballistic Tips.

I told the young hunter to use this as just another example of how little the actual bullet make as far as taking game goes, it is much more important where it lands then how its made.

I told him that these new super magnums are bullet killers of the worst kind, especially at the ranges that most hunt at. His mistakes before his hunt that I listed out in my original post are no worse then the mistakes the "experienced" landowner made in selecting a load for close range deer hunting.

The young hunter asked what bullet the boss should have used for this type of hunting and I said first off, don;t start giving him bullet advise because it will make life harder for you.

But, if I were to use my 300 RUM for any hunting where there was a chance for close range shooting, I would use a 180 gr Swift A-frame or maybe even a 200 gr of the same type. The X bullet would work equally as well as would the Fail Safe bullets but I have found the A-Frames to expand larger and transfer much more energy.

I fallowed that by saying, for 60 yard whitetail hunting, one of the best rifle/load combos in the world is a Win 94 with a 150 gr round nose at about 2400 fps. Worked for me growing up and those bullets at those speeds never, NEVER had a problem penetrating even elk size critters and talk about fast handling.

I hope not only the young man learned a lesson from this but also the "experienced" hunter as well, and I even had it reenforced what I had learned form my own experiments, to bad two beautiful game animals had to be lost in this lesson. Thats the sad part of the story.

Good Hunting!!!

50

Not much to add except data, which will lead to a stronger "conclusion" if there is such a thing with this question.

I've killed at least 25-30 Kentucky whitetails with my old Rem 06 shooting 165BTs at about 2800fps. Most of those were one-shot kills in the 30-60 yard range and most of the deer were "freezer does" in the 75-110 pound range.

Once, however, (you knew it was coming, didn't you?) I shot a young buck with this same load at about 30 yards and he just refused to die. The first shot (chest) put him down, but he laid there breathing. After waiting at least 10 minutes he's still fairly alert. I was concerned that he was either hurting or that I'd done one of those grazing spine shots and that he'd jump up and take off, so after watching him for 10 minutes, I put another round into his chest. Same effect, he's lying there still alive and still breathing. After 15 minutes I climbed down, walked over and did a point blank spinal shot, which finally killed the deer. Needless to say, I didn't feel good about that kill, but couldn't really say what went wrong.

I didn't autopsy that little buck as carefully as I should have, but there were no huge surface chunks blown out, which was what I expected. Both the first and second shots were definitely lung shots. My only conclusion was that it was a close shot and the BT just didn't expand as usual, perhaps because of too much velocity. But honestly, how much velocity difference could there be between 30 yards and say a more typical 50 yards?

The 165BT is still my favorite whitetail bullet and almost surely will remain so. I do think on rare occasion it can perform less than perfectly at close range, especially if it's a 150 or 165 being driven very fast, as from a 300 Win Mag. My opinion is that we reloaders put waaaay too much emphasis on cranking out the most velocity for a given caliber, when in fact most of our hunting bullets perform much better at more moderate speeds. In fact, I believe Field & Stream ran an article recently that made that same point.

OK, I'm the new guy but I have to jump in on this one. I have taken numerous whitetail and sika deer with 140 and 150gr 7mm BT's. I use them exclusively for crop damage shoots across the soybean fields here on the Delmarva Peninsula (that's the Eastern Shore of MD,DE, and VA). I have only 350+ yds, give or take, of real world experience with whitetail. However, I will say that tracking them, ANY of them is a non-existent practice. The Nolser BT kills clean and fast, every time.

Now, I do have to agree that they explode into shrapnel. On many occasions, while eating a roast or steak, resulting from a bone contacting kill, I have encounterd pieces of the jacket. But, hey, I can deal with that for sure dropping power and not wounding/losing game unneccesarily.

I will be trying some Scirrocco's, but havn't loaded any at this point in time, so when rifle season opens Saturday morning, beleive you me, I will be shooting the BT's. Just my experience.

[ 11-26-2002, 22:59: Message edited by: JustC ]

I have no doubt whatsoever that B'T's kill deer varmints and most other things quickly and efficiently,some folk have good experiences, some have bad, all mine have been bad!!
What makes my experiences worse is the Price!!
Do they kill any better,
are they more accurate,
NO!!!!!
So why twice the price?
surely that litte piece of plastic in the end doesn't double the cost of manufacturing.
The only people making a CLEAN KILL is Nosler!!


Griff

50,

I have had the Ballistic Tip fail on me. In all cases (2 unrecovered deer), the animals were shot at EXTREME range..... EXTREMELY CLOSE!

Unfortunately, I'm one of those people you can sit on a power line with a 400+ yard shot in any direction and have deer right underneath me. The only time I had a Ballistic Tip exit a deer was at 70yds. (6) deer, (1) exit, (4) recovered, and (2) lost. The (2) that I lost were shot at 30yds or less. They were alert when I shot them and left a little blood at the point of impact. I shot a 270 130gr Ballistic Tip 57.5grs IMR4831. It grouped great!

I have since switched to Hornady Interlocks (150grs) and haven't had any more problems.

I agree that Ballistic Tips are good bullets. However, they should be used in heavy weights for a specific calibre and at lower velocities. They tend to explode on high velocity close shots.

I will not hunt with a bullet that will not perform in demanding hunting situations. A more ruggedly constructed bullet may not drop em in their tracks, but if it comes out the other side, I can find it.

I am interested in seeing the SST performance on deer sized game. Curious to see if Hornady corrected the close contact problem that Nosler has.....

Fiftydriver-
You did Post the Following above?
"Take a Partition any Partition and drive it over
3200 fps,and engage a target at under 100 yards
and your asking for a Big Problem." This is what you posted right?

Sir no offense meant here,but I will have to disagree with you and call BULL. I'am not saying you are wrong,just that I disagree with you.
I'am not the only one either,Nosler as well as Shooting Times Rick Jamison advises the opposite,See Noslers #4 Reloading Guide.They advise that "at any IMPACT Velocity over 3100 fps,or for any shot where Maximum Penetration is desired use the Partiton."
I guess I better go to the Ballistic Tip 150 grs in my .300 WSM at 3300fps enstead of the same weight Partiton that did A-ok for me recently at less than 100 yards?

I can add nothing nor disagree with you on the Ballistic Tip.

Tiny,

Yes, I said that and it is true. You drive a conventional partition at +3200 fps and drive it into something at under 100 yards, there a very real possiblity that the bullet will fail because the partition simply can not handle the strain of the impact.

In a partition bullet, when the partition ruptures, its game over. I have driven the following partitions fast enough to rupture the partition at ranges under 100 yards. I know this because I did penetration tests on customers rifles and loads that I developed for them.

.243"
85 gr 6mm Rem @ 3450 fps
95 gr 6mm-284 @ 3575 fps
100 gr 6mm-284 @ 3520 fps

.257"
100 gr 25-06 @ 3450 fps, 257 WBY @ 3700 fps
115 gr 257 WBY @ 3375 fps

.264"
125 gr 264 Win Mag @ 3380 fps

.277"
130 gr 270 WBY @ 3425 fps

.284"
140 gr 7mm Rem Mag @ 3375 fps, 7mm STW @ 3500 fps
150 gr 7mm STW @ 3385 fps

.308"
150 gr 300 WBY @ 3450 fps, 300 RUM @ 3600 fps
165 gr 300 RUM @ 3485 fps

These are all teh Partitions that I have witness fail at under 100 yards and at what velocities. I am not saying that the Partition bullet is a bad bullet, but it is certainly not the best bullet for the new big magnum rounds.

These bullets were designed in a time when the 300 Win Mag was huge and the 30-06 was as big as anyone really needed.

I am not saying that the Ballistic Tips are a better bullet for extreme velocity and close range impacts, but it a partition bullet looses its rear core from a partition rupture, it will stop penetrating faster then a ballisitic tip jacket that has lost its core, simply because the Ballistic Tip jacket weights more and has a much more efficient shape after expanding to penetrate compared to a partition that has had its partition ruptured.

I know I took a jab at you about your comments about your Scirocco bullets blowing up but if your going to take one back, better do some testing and come back at me with some facts, not some words that Jamison said.

About him and Shooting Times, ever read one of his articles that ever said anything bad about anything he reviewed? I haven't!

In fact, in every article I read by him I can find at least a dozen places where he either counterdicts his own data, or gives you the data correctly but tries to tell you something that the data clearly does not state.

One example clear in my mind was when he was doing a review of Hornady light and Heavy magnum factory loads along with the Fedrel High Energy factory ammo.

His article was showing how they compared to other factory and handloads trying to show how impressive they were compared to standard stuff.

He even showed pressure data for these loads and other factory loads nice and clear. In all cases, the Light/Heavy magnum and High Energy loads produced about 50 to 100 fps more then standard loads and also had a pressure increase of 5,000 to 7,500 psi over the standard loads.

Then he has the brains to state that Hornady and Fedral have accomplished something that handloaders have been trying to do forever, get higher velocities with standard pressure. And he said that they had done this very well as the new loads showed a marked increase in velocity with very little pressure increases.

Looks like to me they simply loaded the rounds up to where us as handloaders have been for years.

He also does crap like do pressure tests for a round like the 300 RUM and state that the max pressure for this round should be 65,000 psi. Then why in the hell does he never load to over 60,000 psi and usually in the 58,000 psi level.

You can take Ricks work for whatever you want to. But if you take it as gospel, you are being very mislead. All he is is a writing advertisement for the products he is testing, he will never say a bad thing when it should be said, and he often says things that are exact opposites.

One comment I remember him saying was in an article where he was comparing the 17 Rem, 223 Rem, 22-250 Rem and 220 Swift in a varmint round article.

He said the 220 Swift was head and shoulders above the 22-250 for long range hunting because in the loads he listed, the 22-250 used the 55 gr Speer SP(basically a small round nose flat base bullet) and the Swift used the 55 gr Ballistic Tip(perhaps the most efficient standard .224" bullet on the market).

Again he had the brains to say that the 220 Swift really pulls away from the pack after 300 yards. When in reallity, if both are loaded to the same pressure and same barrel length, the Swift will add 100 fps to the 22-250 velocity. That 100 fps advantage shrinks with every yard the bullet flies. In fact that 100 fps advantage at the muzzle has dropped to about 65-70 at 400 yards. And bullet drop, its about 1/2" flatter shooting at 400 yards, basically identical.

Rick Jamison manipulates has experiments to either build up something he wants to show off or make something else look much worse on paper then something he is pushing.

He gets alot of shooters to believe his crap. There may be some truth to his comments but it is only what he wants to be true.

Keep believing he word Tiny and keep believing the things you do now. Go out and do some testing for yourself and see what is really the truth.

Good Hunting, enjoyed the jab!!

I learn more about you everytime you post!

50

Seeing as this is my first post, I don't expect anyone to pay much attention to what I have to say. That being said, I grew up in NE lower MI. From the time I was 15 (a young 29 now) we have had crop damage permits to kill about 30 does a season. Several years ago this changed to over the counter permits due to Bovine TB. I only include this to explain why I feel I have enough experience to have a fairly informed opinion on what it takes to kill Deer in MI. I have been using 150 gr Balisic Silver Tips out of my 7mm RM for the last 5 years or so. Prior to that it was 150 gr CoreLokts. I kill several (3-5) does a year. (We have 2 extra doe seasons as well as regular firearms season.) I have never had a Deer I shot with either bullet go more than 25 yards. I have killed Deer from 10 yards to 220 yards. I am embarassed to admit that I have made some shots that I wish I could take back. The 150 yard running away shot into the does "mommy part" comes to mind. The bullet entered and did what BST's do. The front half of the bullet made like a granade and the base/jacket just kept pushing. I found a 4"x5" peice of steak in the field where I shot her. I then found about 5' of lower intestine about 5 yards away from there. I literaly followed the guts for about 25 yards. There she lay dead as Elvis. Obviously this was not the best choice as far as shot placement goes. Had I been shooting the Core Lokts I doubt I would have recovered her nearly as quickly. The end of long story. I recomend 150gr BST to anyone shooting a 7mm RM for Deer in MI.

Fitydriver-
If you think That I believe "EVERYTHING"
Ol Ricky gets printed in Shooting Times,or any of the "GUN WRITERS" in all Magazines you would be 100% Dead Wrong.
I wish to remind you that Nosler Themselves advises the Partition at a Velocity over 3100 fps.
Did you see the Oct,2002 Shooting Times article by Ol Ricky "Terminal Pefromace" Bullet Test of 180 grs at High and Low Impact Velocity?
It's findings where different than yours with respect to the Ballistic Tips and Partitions.The Partiton out Penetrated at both Velocitys 3000 fps and 2000 fps.
I'am still not saying you are wrong just that other tests show different things.
You said that I should do some Testing of my own and get back to with some facts.I have done a little testing before both in the field and in wet newsprint.I haven't done the wet newsprint test with the Partition at any velocity.
But the Field testing with them says different than your Test I believe in Water Jugs.
Not just my own field test but those of some of my Hunting Buddies using the Partitons at under 100 yards distance and at Velocity over 3100 Fps,in a lot of different Mags,the Partiton did what it's said to do Open and Penetrate a lot better than the Ballistic Tips,with a much larger Exit Hole than you suggested eariler I think slighty larger than caliber,all the ones above where Golf Ball size or Larger.
Again I'am not saying your Test was/is wrong,only that mine and others say different.Could it be that this Difference is because the Test's were Different?

Enough on this now to the Ballistic Tips.My use of them is limited however over the past 3 years or so I've seen Frist Hand what they will do.Untill this time frame I would not thought them to be a good choice in any weight in a Mag.Cal at least not in the lighter weights.During the past 3 years I've seen them used in 100 gr .264 Win Mag,120 & 140 grs. 7mm Rem Mag and the STW,at short & Long ranges,used on Whitetails and Wild Hoggs.THEY WORK.
Still not my frist choice of Bullet Type but I wouldn't hesitate to either use them or tell someone else to try.

It is no secret that velocity is the enemy when it comes to ballistic tips. If you expect to shoot your game at close range, then the ballistic tip is not a good choice, especially if yoiur rifle is of the high velocity type.

But at long range when velocity has fallen off, or in a low velicity rifle at short range, they are deadly. Just read the Ignorance is Bliss thread elsewhere in this forum for an example of how deadly they can be.

Tiny,

Friend, you say the tests Jamison did were at velocities of 2000 and 3000 fps. If you will recall, I said that if you drive a Partition to +3200 fps and shoot game at extreme close range you are asking for trouble.

The 3000 fps velocity of the high velocity impact test done by Jamison shows what will happen to a Partition or Ballistic Tip when driven out of a standard magnum at the most.

In fact 3000 fps is easy to reach with most of the standard rounds such as a 120gr in 25-06, 130 gr in 270, 140 gr in 280, 150 gr in 30-06. This is the exact velocity range that the Partition and in fact the Ballistic Tips were designed to operate at.

So a 150 gr Partition will survive a 50 yard impact from a 30-06, drive that same bullet +500 fps faster from a 300 RUM and see how that partition holds up to the strain.

If and only if the Partition holds solid will the Nosler Partition perform on game as it should.

From 3000 fps to 3200 fps is a big difference, from 3200 fps to 3500 fps is a quantum leap. I said that 3200 fps is the baseline for the velocity where the possiblity of a Nolser Partition failing begin to increase dramatically. At 3500 fps there is a likelyhood that the bullet will fail, as will the Ballistic Tips by the way.

You think Nolser endorses the use of the Partition in the new ultra velocity rounds. If so why did they, along with Winchester, design a new "super" partition called the Partition Gold. Which by the way has to new features designed to prevent the exact thing we are talking about.

The first, is that they moved the partition farther forward toward the nose of the bullet. This allows less weight to be lost when the bullet expands since more of the bullet weight is in the rear core.

The second feature, if partition failures were not a problem in high velocity impacts then why was there a steel cup inserted into the second core of the Partition Gold. This steel cup reenforces the partition to prevent it from splitting under extreme impact stress. It also prevents the bullet walls from buckling and creating a split between the rear lead core ad the rear jacket walls.

In effect, they designed a new partition bullet to stand up to impact velocities over 3200 fps.

Do you really think Jamison would tell you anyway if he had a partition fail at his 3000 fps velocity, I don't.

I'm not saying that all partitions will simply come apart at 3200 fps and above, but the possiblity raises very quickly as velocity increases over this mark.

I have seen a 150 gr Partition survive an impact of over 3500 fps, I have also seen a few fail during the same test. The problem is when the bullet impacts bone. If the front core has just shed when the bullet is still at high velocity and strikes a heavy bone, the partition will likely split. Again when velocities are over 3200 fps, not the 3000 fps created by standard rounds.

Good Hunting!!!

50

Well, today was the second to last day of hunting season here in Montana and for the past week, the only hunter with a tag left to fill has been my wife.

Last weekend we hunted very hard, morning and evening trying to get her a big mature whitetail. Saturday morning of last weekend, we had a huge 4x4 whitetail in front of us. We could see him in the bottom of the creek drainage we hunt but with the low light and brush I was unable to give her a clear judgement of his size.

When we finally saw what he was and she had her scope on him, he walked straight away from us for about 300 yards onto property we could not hunt on. Never once gave use an angle at his vitals. It is hard to watch something like that walk but she had seen it before and always keeps an open mind to future chances on those deer. Two years ago the same thing happened on a 163 5/8" 6x6 that is now on our living room wall, she's learned to stick with it.

Anyway, through out last weekend, we spotted him a total of 5 times usually out of range or on other property. Along with him, we had a very nice, but smaller 4x4 in the same area, in fact he gave her 9 different chances for a shot and she turned down all nine just to get a crack at the big boy.

This buck is about 17-18" wide outside, with about 5 1/2 to 5 3/4" bases. His points are very nice with G-2's in the +12" range and G-3's in the 8-10" range. His main beams appear to be in the 24" range. The most impressive feature is that his mass goes right to his point tips, he almost looks funny with that solid of bone on his head.

Well, we hunted him very hard last weekend, seeing him and this other 4x4 everyday we went out. My wife does not have time off during the week so I decided to go up and from a distance try to keep track of this bucks travel routes.

Well, Monday afternoon, all that showed was a spike whitetail and a 2x2 mule deer.

Tuesday, one doe.

Wednesday, three whitetail spikes.

The weather had warmed up and the deer activity flat stopped. I was getting a little nervous. Thanksgiving morning we went out and again only was one spike whitetail. The afternoon was filled with family gatherings.

Friday morning was about the same with two spike whitetails and a very young 4x4 mulie. Friday afternoon showed even less.

So we came to this morning and I asked my wife if she wanted to go somewhere else as we have Mule deer hunting ground as well but no other whitetail ground. She asked me what I though and we decided to give the whitetails one more morning and then we would have to go after the Mule deer which she really prefers the whities, as do I.

We loaded up the gear and headed to our vantage point at about 5:00 A.M.

We got set up and waited the hour or so for the first light of day to start to show. Just before light, three mule deer skirted around us but non appeared to have head gear worth investigating so we let them pass.

Out of nowhere, from the bottom of the creek drainage, a deer jumped out of the brush and onto a small open flat in the valley. Looking through my 10x bino's, I could see it was a buck but not out big boy, still it was at about 230 yards and had noticable antlers.

I told her to get on her 25-06 and get ready while I found the buck in the spotting scope. Sure enough it was the nice 4x4 that had been hanging around in that area the weekend before.

We had discussed what our goals for the last weekend would be and she decided that if that four point or any other mature(4 1/2 yr or older) buck came into view, she would take it. This buck is right at that 4 1/2 year old stage and she was all over it when I told her it was our friend.

At 230 yards, she hammered the 100 gr Ballistic Tip at 3440 fps as perfect behind the shoulder as it could be. It couldn't have been any better placement even if she had a bullseye to shoot for.

The buck jumped and kicks and turned away from us and ran very quickly toward land we have no access to. I shouldered my 300 RUM just in time to see the buck stumble to his left and fall over. He traveled about 40 yards.

The entrance wound was about 3" going into the chest cavity, with an equal size hole through both lungs and a 2" exit wound. I was a very proud husband to say the least. Only reason for me to be there is the draggin any more.

It was not the big buck we had hunted so hard for but it is a very nice 4x4 of the age we hunt for. It was a perfect hit and an end to a very long and good big game season.

With all the talk around the house about ballistic tips failing on big bucks, I think it was good for her to see first hand how very well suited these bullets are for hunting deer size game.

She has harvested five mature whitetails so far in 6 hunting seasons, and dispite me having almost four times as many seasons under my belt, she still has the biggest buck in the house, and probably the highest average score. If she doesn't, I don;t have her by much.

I am very happy with her success and willingness to pass up deer until she gets what she wants. She also knows that we don;t always get those big bucks we see and need to take advantage of chances for other good bucks that arise.

Though you guys might want to read about it as its another example of fine performance from a weak ballistic tip. This one a lowly 100 gr pill from a 25-06.

Good Hunting!!!

50

Fiftydriver

Congrats to both You and your Wife on the Hunt above,good going.Yes I enjoied reading about it.Hope that both of you have many more like it.

Now about the "TEST" we both posted about above.

1-I Concede that the Velocity of the Bullets in these tests were Different.HOWEVER I still find it hard to believe that a Partition that out Penetrates the Ballistic Tip at 2000 fps and again at 3000 fps at 30 feet distance will not do so again at 3200 + fps. Not saying it can't happen just that I find it hard to believe.
2-I say this because I used a Partition at 3300 fps "Muzzle Velocity" at less than 100 yards and it PERFORMED JUST LIKE IT WAS Supposed too.Entred the ribs and passed though the off side shoulder breaking both ribs and the shoulder,leaving an exit wound the size of a golf ball,the deer went maybe 40 yards after the shot.Maybe if you are correct I got real lucky.
3-Question,You posted that the Partition May RUPTURE at High Impact Velocity.What do you mean by Rupture? Is this the same as "BULGE" ?
4-You asked me some Questions about the Partiton Gold,I have as yet to use this Bullet nor I do know that much about all the "WHYS" you ask me.I have and did know that the Partiton Gold,Has the partiton moved forward a liitle,a thicker jacket than the old,the rear steel insert cup,and came out Moly Coated.I Cannot and Will Not comment on something I do not know.

Good Hunting Back To YA and God Bless.

These long threads never end in resolve only die from boredom.
Here ill show you an example of how to make a choice as a individual and walk away.
"smallfry, why dont you use BT's on deer?"
Me: "Because I have better choices that I have elected to use."
Take care
smallfry

Tiny,

I totally agree with you that a Partition can survive a high velocity, close range impact and preform correctly on game.

In the earlier post I admitted to personally seeing a partition survive a 3500 fps impact and work picture perfect, have also seen about the same percentage fail at that level.

My major point here is that while the Partition is a better penetrating big game bullet when used in its correct velocity range compared to the Ballistic Tip, if the partition in the bullet happens to fail or rupture, the Partition will have a more catastrophic bullet break up then a Ballistic Tip will.

When I say "rupture", it means that when the bullets front core has been fully expanded and usually totally lost, this leaves the bare copper partition to withstand the stress of penetration. It is when this partition splits in the middle, like your cross-sectioning the bullet, that the rear lead core it subject to being driven out the back of the case.

Of the Partitions I have seen rupture, I would say 95% had lost their rear core, as well as having a large amount of bullet jacket fall away from the main body of the bullet.

When these bullets hold together at normal velocities they are great bullets, but when they fail, they fail very badly.

With a Ballistic Tip, the jacket will turn inside out, often loosing its entire core in the process. This is by design. The solid copper base of the Ballistic Tip along with the thicker walls of the "hunting" Ballistic Tips hold this jacket together in one piece.

Even though the core is totally gone and the jacket has turned inside out, the remaining jacket will weight more then a same weight Partition bullet that has failed.

Also the Ballistic Tips final expanded shape is much more efficient then the mangled mess of a failed partition.

I have yet to drive a hunting weight Ballistic Tip fast enough to have it explode and totally come apart on target such as the "varmint" type Ballistic Tips do so well. I have driven these bullets well over 3500 fps and yes they totally loose the lead core but still penetrate very well.

The Partition is a great bullet but if the partition fails to hold solid, they will totally fall apart and stop penetrating.

This is not a problem with the design of the bullet, its a problem in the use of the bullet.

I was simply telling you why Nosler and Winchester redesigned the Partition bullet into the Partition Gold. They added features to reduce the chance of a bullet failure in the new high performance magnums.

Interestingly enough, when they came together to design a Combined Technology Similiar to the Ballistic Tip, the only thing they did was to give the standard Ballistic Tip a black surface treatment, with no other internal changes, there was no need to.

There was a real problem with the Partition and high velocity impacts so they made a change, the Ballistic Tip performs as it is designed at these velocities, transfer huge amounts of energy and provide sufficient penetration for deer size game.

Good Hunting!!

50

To all,

Just had a friend stop by and tell me about his Mule deer hunt where he harvested a huge bodied 4x5 Mule Deer.

This is of interest to me as the rifle he used was purchased from my brother and he still uses the same load that we worked up for it for deer hunting. It is the 180 gr Ballistic Tip at 3120 fps using Rl-22.

I'll keep the story short. He crawled up to a herd of mulies with the buck in it and got the rifle lined up on the buck but had to wait for the shot so that a couple does could get out of the way.

As the final doe cleared, he could see the buck quartering away from him. There was plenty of vital chest area showing so he let the shot go.

At the same time, the buck stepped sideways a step and the 180 gr Ballistic Tip hit squarely into the right side ham of the buck. The buck was floored by the shot but regained his feet only to have another Ballistic Tip punch both lungs and he fell dead.

When the hunter got up to the buck, it looked like it had had its throat cut and he couldn'y understand why.

While they dressed out the buck, they saw that the bullet had hit the right ham, just missing the leg bone, angled up though the stomach cavity, seperating the spine and left shoulder and finally leaving the 3" exit wound in the neck.

While he was sick with the shot placement, he was amazed with the penetration. No there were no major bones hit but there was about 40" of tissue penetrated. He said the shot was at around 200 yards. Its stories like this from hunters I know and trust that confirm the Ballistic Tip performance.

Also talked with a guy this morning that had harvested another 3x4 Mulie this weekend using his 300 WSM and the loads I developed for him, 180 gr Ballistic Silvertip at 2990 fps.

He was disappointed with the performacne of the bullet so I asked him why? He had shot the buck quartering toward him and hit him square on the shoulder. The bullet punched the shoulder and penetrated though the chest cavity and exited at the last rib. Several large bone fragments were also drivin though the chest cavity with two of them exiting about 4" on each side of the bullet exit.

I asked him what the problem was. He said he didn't like the damage that the ballisitic Silvertip caused and was embarrased to take the deer to the processor because it looked like it had been shot three time with the bone fragments exiting.

I asked him how far the deer traveled from the shot and he said two steps is all. I asked him how much meat was lost and he said, just the top of the shoulder that was hit.

I simply said that in my mind he couldn't have gotten better bullet performacne with any bullet made. It he was unhappy with a clean killed deer then we could certainly develope loads for his rifle with any bullet he liked.

In all honesty, do any of you find fault with that bullet performance? I guess I would rather have a dead deer very quickly compared to a dead deer with two little pin holes in it that I had to track a half mile and still loose the same amount of meat with a shoulder shot.

I guess I don't know what hunters these days want from their deer bullets.

Good Hunting!!!

50

This is similar to the argument of using MatchKings on game. If it kills them, and you haven't lost anything, when you've hit'em right, etc., they are good/great/the best.
All the BT's I've seen used, in rounds like the 30-06, and the .308, worked. All the testing I've seen indicates they don't penetrate as well as most connventional designs. They can't even hold a candle to the Barnes X, the Swift-A-Frame, or the Federal Throphy Bonded designs. In fact, Gun Tests magazine reported the Ballistic Tip, .308 150 gr. Federal loads loose their cores when shot through a slab of bacon at 250 yds. Only the Remington 150 gr. Cor-Loks were this bad in their testing.
So they are the best deer bullets, even for the big magnums ? At that power level, almost anything will work on deer class stuff.
Then we get to the situations where something goes wrong. You hit the buck in the wrong spot. You hit the buck right, but he runs off anyway. The rare buck that just plain tough. Or your bullet hit a twig you didn't see, and hit him poorly. What's more, the bullet partially opened and lost some of it's energy.
This is where the premiums pay for themselves. They hold together and penetrate. Your odds of having a blood trail to follow are as good as it gets with them. They penetrate. even lenth wise, and reach the vitals better than the conventional designs.
This is why I use them on this class of animal. I don't need a magnum. I use premiums instead. I've used magnums, with and w/o the premiums. The standard rounds kill just as well as the magnums on this class of game. The bottom line is the standard cartriages are easier to shoot well, particularly from light rifles. I shoot better with them. This true of even very experienced shots. This is why the .308 has such enormous popularity among target shooters and military snipers. E

No, that analogy between the argument for MatchKings is in no way similar to the argument for Ballistic tips.

As I recall the MK arguments against their use was that since the MK is not designed specifically to be a hunting bullet it should not be used on game regardless of the performance by those that use it successfully.

The Nosler BT was designed expressly for the taking of game animals. It was designed for hunting. You may not like the performance of the bullet either thru your own personal experience or thru that of someone you know or have heard of. But the BT was designed for game.

I have read of different types of bullets not performing well on a game animal. I am sure that someone on the board can give personal experience with just about any bullet about poor performance. Heck, Remington Cor Lokts are getting a lot of "it did not work well for me" but I dont see a lot of emotion about getting rid of them.

This fellow has used BT's to good advantage. The deer was killed immediately and a minimum of meat was wasted.

What part of bad bullet performance does that fall under.


Jim B

Fiftydriver
I was in no way flaming you on my first reply-but was kind of pionting out the reply that should have been said to the young shooter at the time of his tantrum!! Personnaly I would of had a good chuckal when he start whinning. His loss I just hope it was a clean miss- and that deer is hanging on someone else's wall.
Good Hunting to you!

I think BT is crap. I have shot 3 deer with them. One was a large doe at 320 yards. High lung shot and i had 6 exit holes. The deer sure died, took about 5 steps but i wonder if the bullet had penetrated if it hit the shoulder. Next deer was a roe deer buck. 200 yards, again a high lung shoot. No exit hole except one tine one in his ass! It was a perfect broad side. Had to throw away half the meat. It had splinters in the file to. Whole groin area exploded. It was a mess. He died like struck by lightning though. 3d deer was a neck shot. Worked well, almost cut off his neck. Those who say BT is good are probably not eating the meat. They sure drop dead fast. The caliber i was using was 6.5x55 120 grain BT at 920 m/s (3100 feet sec i think).

Headline: "BALLISTIC TIP FAILS AGAIN, THREE DEER DEAD INSTANTLY"

Igor,

YOu my friend have had some very unusual results with the Ballistic Tip for sure. I may have misunderstood your shot placement, but how do you explain damage to the rear end of a deer with a lung shot? Seems to me that your bullet defied the laws of physics on that one, or there was more then one shot fired.

I have used Ballistic Tips and Ballistic Silvertips exclusively on deer size game for nearly twenty years and I eat what I hunt, and hunt what I eat, period. I do not kill for sport, but instead for the meat.

Yes, I do hunt for mature bucks and does but only because these animals provide the most meat per tag and even a +7 year old whitetail buck taken from our Montana hay fields is very fine tasting venison.

Every year, the first two things I do are to harvest two mature does for the freezer. Then I can spend the rest of the season hunting for a big whitetail buck. Everything that hits the ground is eattin usually a month before the next season starts.

To say that Ballistic Tips are not used by hunters that eat their game is simply a foolhardy comment.

Yes, if a huunter drives a Ballistic Tip through the shoulder of a deer, that shoulder and possible the other will suffer meat loss depending on the angle of the shot.

Slam a shoulder with an A-Frame bullet and what happens? The same damn thing. I don't care what bullet you drive into a shoulder, there will be meat loss in that area.

My question is why is it so hard for the majority of shooters to avoid the shoulder bones and still make a killing shot? I find it very easy to slip a Ballistic Tip in that hollow pocket just behind the shoulder.

There are times when game is quartering toward you just right that a shoulder needs to be punched through but this is in reality very seldom. If your a true meat hunter, you will either take head/neck shots or simply put the bullet through the ribs and not the shoulder.

Yes, the deer will run a bit, usually under 50 yards and if you can't track an animal that far then we better not be in the woods in the first place.

This stand that Ballistic Tips destroy to much tissue falls on deft ears with me. Tell me how to kill a game animal without massive tissue damage to vital organs.

It is those that stear the Ballistic Tips wrong that complain about their poor performance on game. Personally I have never seen personally or heard second hand of a well placed Ballistic Tip that did not drop the game quickly.

Have heard alot of stories that say they lost a deer because of poor bullet performance though. My only question is how do you know where your bullet landed with no carcass to inspect.

Your three experiences are truely troubling, I wouldn't use any bullet that can turn a 90 degree angle and take out the rear of a deer with a shoulder shot. I may even quit hunting if it were me.

Its funny that my brother used the same bullet as you this year on a +350 pound 6 1/2 year old mule deer. Only he was driving it at 3550 fps out of his 264 Win Mag. He hit the buck just behind the front shoulder at 237 yards, punched a 2" hole in and a 2.5" hole out of the chest cavity. The buck covered about 40 yards before falling over dead. Plus he used the same load on a +14" pronghorn this year at 200 yards with the same results. Your deer must have a steel plate in the center of their chest cavity to make the bullets splatter back to the rear end of the deer, truely strange stuff.

Good Hunting!!!

50

[ 12-04-2002, 01:06: Message edited by: Fiftydriver ]

My film is being developed as I post. I will post photos through a link as to avoid offending any one, just what the balllistic tip will do. From 20 yds to 110 yds. it isn't as dramatic as Boyd's match king and after you see the photos I think most will agree they are no different on entry or exit than any other caliber. It is what they do between the holes that really matters to me. Come on guys, there isn't that much meat on a WT front shoulder anyway. I wouldn't use them if a lung hit bloodshot everthing from the ears to the tail. I must be the luckiest savage alive to have not lost a deer all these years using my 180's in an '06. Also I will post the specifics of the hunt. All will be a seperate thread. Thanks for your patience.
Alan