To all,

I was recently attacked on my recommendation on using Nosler Ballistic Tips and the CT Ballistic Silvertips on deer size game.

I personally use these bullets exclusively in all of my long range handguns and rifles used on game under 400 pounds.

Of the over 50 big game animals I have harvested using these bullets, I have yet had one failure to quickly kill the aminal and never has an animal that I initially shot traveled more then 100 yards after being shot.

Nor have I ever witnessed a well placed Ballistic Tip ever fail any other hunters that I have been with.

Because of this I fully endorse the use of the Ballistic TIp bullets ranging from the 100 gr .257" up to the 225 gr .358" for use on game under 400 pounds. In fact using the 180 gr .308" and larger Ballistic TIps,I would feel perfectly comfortable taking game up to 700 pounds.

Well, yesterday, a yound shoot came up to me and said that the Ballistic Tip is a worthless bullet and that he had just lost the largest buck he had ever shot at because of them.

Once I settled him down I was able to learn alot more about the situation. The rifle he was using was a 300 Win Mag that I have personally shot and know to be a good shooting rifle. The owner of this rifle loaned it to the young shooter who, if lucky shots 20 times a year with most of those at game animals and never has he shot or been near anything bigger then a three year old mule deer.

The load used in that rifle drives the 180 gr Ballistic Tip to 3050 fps with right at 1" groups at 100 yards. Other then that I have no idea about its zero. I do know that it had not been range tested prior to this young fellas hunt, in fact his first shot with this rifle was at this "huge" buck at 250 yards.

The hunt supposedly went as follows.

The young hunter was in a 50 foot tower stand and using a set of rattling horns as the rut is just starting and this was his first time trying the horns.

He had two buck respond to the horns, a small 3x5 and this very nice(?) 5x6. At around 250 yards(which he guessed) he fired his first round and the buck hunched up and started walking away from him toward land where he could not hunt. He fired again and said that he hit the buck but with no effect(?). The buck stopped at the fance line and he fired again. This shot dropped the buck but he was back on his feet in a few seconds.

Unfortunately, the young hunter only had three rounds with him and had to climb down out of the stand to the truck below for more ammo.

Instead of climbing back up in the stand, he decided to chace the big buck on foot without allowing any time for him to expire.

The buck saw him long before the hunter saw the buck and simply stood up, jumped the fence and ran away from him on land where he could not gain access.

He was obviously very hot at me for my recommendation for using the Ballistic Tip and just wanted to basically tell me I had no idea what I was talking about.

I was kind enough to take him into my gun room where, on the walls are 16 set of horns from whitetails that average in age at about 6 years of age, with the youngest at 4 1/2 years. The lowest scoring buck is a 124" B&C 4x4 and the highest is a 164" B&C 6x6. Body weight ranged from 245 pounds up to 328 pounds. Our Montana whitetails grow quite large.

I simply told him that if the bullet is placed in the correct location, the Ballistic TIp will simply not fail on deer size game.

I asked if he picked up a blood trail and he said yes, it was quite heavy and very dark blood.

My opinion is that his first shot landed to far back and hit the liver or speen, producing the dark blood. I believe his second shot was a flat miss, and I would bet that his third shot either hit back in the pauch again, or somewhere near the spinal cord without actually breaking it. I have seen bullets shock the spinal cord several times and drop a deer in its tracks only to have it regain its balance and run away.

I told him in as kind a way as possible that he had made several mistakes before, during and after the hunt that lost him that buck, and I listed them out to him:

1) He didn't fire the rifle before the hunt to become familiar with its recoil, trajectory and accuracy.

2) As a result of #1, he made a bad shot at a relatively long shot for his experience level, longer then he should have been shooting.

3) Only had three rounds with him in the stand. My advice, if they keep getting up, keep knocking them down, HAVE ENOUGH AMMO, just in case. Everybody expects a one shot kill but be prepared.

4) He didn't give the buck time to expire, obviously with the blood trail, the buck was need the end with a liver hit. Giving him 30 minutes would have provided the young hunter his first true trophy.

His response was still that if he would have been shooting better bullets then he would have gotten his buck. He said this simply because the land owner of the land he was hunting on said this to him. Who obviously has never combined good marksmenship with the Ballistic TIp bullets.

I showed him several pictures of deer that I had harvested using the same bullet he did, only driven to about 400 fps faster out of my 300 RUM. The bullet centered both shoulders on the +300 pound whitetail and never slowed down.

I have an entire photo album of examples such as these from animals harvested with the 120 gr 7mmBR up to the 200 gr .338" Ballsitic Tip.

My final question was, "Did you put one of your bullets in the chest cavity?". His answer was "no."

Why is it that so many hunters, even experienced hunters fail to realize that poor shot placement is usually if not always the reason for lost game. Its easy to blame the bullet when there is no proof as to the bad shot, only in this case, the black blood was a sure sign of a bad hit, and if one looked closer, I would bet one of my rifles that there was stomach matter along with that dark blood.

If a hunting Ballistic Tip or Ballistic Silvertip is delievered in the chest cavity of deer size(400 lb and under) game, its lights out. If any bullet lands outside the vitals it will do no good except to cause a very slow painful death and usually loss of the animal.

I handed the young shooter one of my "match" hunting rounds from my 50 BMG that is loaded with a coated 750 gr Hornady A-Max bullet. I told him to keep it as a reminder that even this monster with 13,000 ft/lbs of muzzle energy would not stop a deer with a bad shot, nothing will.

Its time that we teach people how to shoot, with all the new super magnums on the market, far to many of us feel we can reach out as far as we can see and snipe a big buck when in truth, most shouldn't reach past 200 yards even with a rest.

In the hands of a competent shot, the Ballistic Tip and Ballistic Silvertips are arguably the best deer bullets made.

Your opinions, for and against are welcome, but please have solid experience to back up your story, no my dad told me crap. I want to hear from hunters who have tested this stuff first hand and competently. If you can't shoot don't blame any rifle or bullet.

Good Shooting and Hunting!!!

50

There is nothing to argue about Fiftydriver. The type of bullet in this case never really came in to play. The young hunters inexperience and lack of patience caused him to miss his trophy. Even worse, he wasted a good animal and caused it to die a very painful death.

Hopefully he has learned a leason, and next time apply that to his hunt.

Fifty,
My experience has been a little different. I happen to love the Nosler 140gr Ballistic Tip bullet in my 7STW, and push it along at 3,500 ft/sec.
However, the terminal performance of this bullet is not predictable. I may get a classic wound channel, with or without a pass-through. Or, I may get a huge wound on the entry side with the bullet actting more like a Hornady V-MAX bullet. Lots of destroyed tissue.
Either way, they're dead. No question about that.
I could use a heavier B-Tip but the 140's shoot extremely well and have killed reliably ,even if they performed erratically.
I have also shot this bullet from my 7-08 and noticed the expansion on groundhogs. They open up fasssst.
VH

Honestly, if I hypothetically "had" to paunch hit a deer sized animal (which you never do, of course) I would use a Ballistic tip. Their ability to mushroom well even on soft tissue is one of their strong points. I too have never had a failure using them at .257 115's at 3200, .308 165's at 3050, and .338 200's at 3020 on pronghorn, deer and elk. Your handling of the situation is to be commended, the kid may not realize it yet but if he's worth the time you obviously think he is, someday he'll realize how right you were in the assessment of the unfortunate situation. I hope the rest of your season is a good one--word has it the whitetails are beginning to rut hard on the east side!

ive shoot deer with 140gr. in my 270 and 150 in my 30-06. my dad shot a mulie last year with a 168 with his 30-06. this year i got my 7mm loaded with 140's. i tried 140 partitions but my gun doesnt really like them. they shoot in to a half inch @100 yrds. they gave me confidince in my shooting and they are the one that i hope will yeld a big saskatchewan buck for me.

While I think your are correct in your estimation of the events of this hunt, and the amazing accuracy of ballistic tips in general. I have no doubt that the bullet had nothing to do with this young (i assume) man's lack of experience in hunting, and his lack of skill in placement. Any bullet, well placed, from a stand, is a killing blow.

BUT,I will not use them on game I intend to eat. They are explosive on any hit, and flat detonate on bone. I much prefer an exit hole, pretty much regardless of shot angle/placement on north american game.
The ONLY exception to this rule is when I haul out my savage 708 pistol, and this is for varmit/bobcat hunting anyway.

This being said, I usually shoot large mediums or small big bores (358, 375, 416, 458) for my normal round.

My biggest problem is with hunting hogs, and expecting a high shoulder to put the pig down for good. I've had HUGE wounds on the on-side shoulder.. and a require second shot, with BTs in 708, 7 mag, 308, and 300 win. I would not use the 100 gr 257.

Sorry to go against the flow, on this.

jeffe

Thank you for the replies so far,

Fisher,

I agree 100% with your comments, it truely was the inexperience of this young hunter that lost the buck and the bullet had very little to do with things. I remember the first time I had a trophy quality whitetail in my sights, it is not a calming experience, fortunately I had a very experienced father to calmly guide me through it. This kid is a very good kid and I feel he will learn from this. I really don't care if he uses Ballisitic Tips as there are hundreds of fine bullets on the market, just hope he practices up a little more for next year.

Varmint Hunter,

I have developed loads for 7mm STW shooters and in that round I will limit velocity with the 140 gr Ballistic Tips to 3450 fps simply for the reasons you list. If they want more I tell them to use a stouter bullet. From my penetration tests, even a 140 gr Partition launched at 3500 fps will have a partition rupture on anything inside 200 yards. I much prefer the 150 gr Ballistic Tips for the STW and 7mm RUM but a 160 gr B. Tip would be even better if Nosler would make one.

For my long range handguns, which is basically all I use anymore, I use the Ballistic Tips or Ballistic Silvertips exclusively. At these somewhat lower handgun velocities, they are very controled expanding bullets yet still expand great at long range, accuracy is second to no other hunting bullet I have found.

Snowcat,

Thanks for your reply, Things are just getting good here in central Montana. We hunt just east of Augusta and the whities are starting to get restless with this warm weather. Any cold spell at all will create an explosion of rut activity. I already harvested a very nice 4x5 mule deer with my XP-100 so my wife will have to get the big Whitetail. She's pretty good at that though, her biggest so far is a 163" 6x6, this year she has her eye on a 4x4 that appears to have +6" bases and +12" G2's, we've seen him a couple times but never had a chance for her to shoot, hopefully she will get a chance.

Good Luck on the other side of the hills!!

Sask_Hunter,

Not only do I agree with your comments but I also envy your hunting area. I would give a few body parts to hunt your monster whitetails, been saving up for a couple years for a guided hunt, won't be long now, good luck and shoot a Boonie!!

Jeffeosso,

I agree the bullet used had very little to do with loosing the deer and I also believe that any hunting bullet delievered into the vitals will easily kill a deer.

I have not had the experience you have with the Ballistic Tips coming apart on bone, perhaps its because those that have hit shoulder bones have generally been at longer ranges(300-450 yards) where as those at closer ranges, it has been quite easy to slip the bullet behind the shoulder bones only to turn the chest cavity into soup.

Those at longer ranges that have hit bone have all penetrated fully and exited, of course these have been 180 gr Ballistic Tips out of my 300 RUM and 180 gr Ballistic Tips out of my 338-300 WSM Xp-100.

While they will ruin a shoulder, I have seen no diffenrce compared to any other conventional bullets from Speer, Hornady and Sierra as far as tissue damage.

Only the super stout bullets have shown lower amounts of wasted meat and this is at a cost of energy transfer.

For deer I want a bullet that opens fast because if they do not, the bullet will be pretty much through the vitals before they mushroom. A pin hole though the lungs is a long tracking job often in the dark. I'll give up a shoulder for the rest of the animal.

As far as hogs go. I have only hunted Russian Boars once and from the 275 pound boar I harvested with my Ruger 45 Colt with the 300 gr Speer Uni-Core SP, I would not use a Ballistic Tip on them unless of .308" caliber or larger. The grissel shield on my boar was 1 1/4" thick and very tough for the lighter B. Tips to punch through.

The Colt busted both shoulders and exited easily at 30 yards, I was very happy.

Thank you for all the replies, they have been very interesting.

Keep them coming!!!

Good Hunting!!

50

50driver,
The experience of my gunsmith is exactly the same as yours with everything from 257 to 308 BTs. Believe me, he has used a lot of them and on our deer it kills like a bolt. But he can shoot, and puts a bullet where it counts.

What you have reported emphasizes the fact that it isn't what you hit them with, but where you hit them. For deer size animals, the 308 and below BTs are enough if it is a killing shot. For the 338 and higher, Nosler says they were designed for elk size and tough.

I used a 250 9.3mm on a bush buck and it is one tough bullet. At point blank range, it knocked the animal down. The bullet exit wound was put toward the camera for pics. Ku-dude

I can't help but to jump in on this conversation and say my piece. I'm afraid I may have been one of the naysayers on Ballistic Tips, but that was ONLY on the 6mm BT's for deer-sized game. I myself exclusively use 150 and 165 gr. Ballistic Tips in my .308 and .30-06 respectively and have never had one fail, they are hands-down my favorite deer bullet, and I agree that they would take bigger game with heavier bullets, such as a .30 180 gr. To those of you who say they ony destroy meat, I shake my head and wonder if you shoot the critters at archery ranges with a .30 magnum. If you do, tht might explain it. I have shot many deer with my 165 gr. and it has never failed to completely penetrate the shoulders from 50 yds. to 300+yds. I do hunt for meat, we don't by meat, what I shoot is what goes in the freezer. Last weekend I shot two mule deer bucks within 100 yds., they were together. The bullet on each deer went through the ribs and lungs, in one case the top of the heart and the lungs. They made a .30 entrance hole and a 2 inch exit which we butchered up to. We lost less than a pound of meat total between the two bucks, I know this because we butcher our own meat. I'm sorry if you've had bad luck with them blowing up, but on over 20 deer I've witnessed shot with them, I've never witnessed anything but optimal performance. My two cents.
Yardbird

Fiftydriver,

I hope you are 100% correct on this one as I recently purchased a Ruger M77 MKII in 25-06 and it came with a box of CT 115 gr Ballistic Silver Tips. I worked up some loads and immediately came up with a very accurate handload. I am deer hunting now and have yet to get a shot. I also hunt in the shotgun zone and have tagged 2 so far. I may have to wait till next year to try the 25-06 BSTs. I'll definitely use the rifle on coyotes with 75 gr Vmaxs that also came with the rifle though. I'll report any results I get.

Dave

The only problem I have had with BT's is under 50 yds.I have had what I consider to be a blow-up with a 95gr in 6mm Rem lost the deer after it jumped a fence I couldn't cross.In a 7mm RM in 150gr that I had to shoot again while running away and another with the same rifle I had to shoot again. I think they are a fine long range bullet but under fifty yds over 3000 fps I have seen them go to pieces.

As Snowcat points out, a paunch hit, which is always eventually fatal, will likely be more quickly fatal with a Ballistic Tip than with a slower-expanding bullet.

Recognizing that paunch hits are to be avoided, they do happen (especially with less-experienced hunters who tend to shoot at the "center" of the target).

A paunch hit kills by loss of blood, which is caused by trauma to the internal organs (spleen, liver, etc.) The more trauma, the more bleeding, and the quicker the death. Often, a paunch hit with a quickly-expanding bullet will result in the animal loosing its feet (perhaps due to hydrostatic shock to the nerves of the spine). If it does not regain its feet, it may expire on the spot (and I've seen this happen more than once). On the other hand, a tough bullet may zip through the paunch, resulting in very slow bleeding and a commensurately slow death.

People forget that in addition to its rapidly expanding nose, the Ballistic Tip has a solid base. This base provides greater penetration than a similarly-expanding bullet of conventional construction. In my tests in various media, Ballistic Tips penetrate about 90% of the distance of their weight-caliber counterparts in Partitions -- and that ain't too shabby.

As far as meat loss, what's the big deal about sacrificing part of one shoulder? After all, this isn't the premium part of the deer, and I'd rather sacrifice a shoulder than give up the whole animal to the coyotes.

Rifleman,

My 25-06 is also a Ruger, an M77MkII Sporter which I replaced the factory stock with a Fajen Timberline Sporter in Brown/Brown laminate. I also added a Timney trigger and a Weaver V-Tac scope.

This rifle is my single most accurate and most finicky sporter I have in the safe.

It will shoot only one load good, and thats a moly coated 100 gr Ballsitic Tip over 58.0gr Rl-22 and lit by a CCI-200 primer. With this load, it was an honest 3/8" three shot group gun for many years. Velocity averages 3440 fps.

This rifle has been one of my main deer rifles for years as well as my up to 600 yards rockchuck rifle for a long time. The quick expanding 100 gr Ballsitic Tips will lift a chuck several feet in the air with a solid hit no matter the range, as well as penetrate plenty for chest shots on the biggest whitetail and mule deer.

When CT came out with the 115 gr Ballsitic Silvertip, I believed this was the ultimate for long range bullets in the 25-06. I was able to load up to 3200 fps but unfortunately accuracy levels were only in the 1-1 1/4" range for three shots. This is plenty good for big game hunting but couldn't hold a candle to the 100 gr BT load so I have never changed.

As far as terminal performacne, the 115 gr BT and BST should be a far better bullet as far as penetration is concerned on heavier game or when bone is blocking the vitals. These heavier bullets have a smaller tip which still starts expansion but in a much more controlled manor then the larger tip in the 100 gr pill.

They are an all-around better big game bullet for sure, I'm sorry to say that my rifle doesn't like them much, but if your does, all the better for you.

Good Hunting!!!

50

I have killed several deer with the NBTs. 7MM 150 gr and 6.5MM 120 gr. NONE of those deer took a single step when hit in the vitals or neck! Those deer have ranged in size from medium to large. I was a bit apprehensive about the 6.5 120 gr bullets at first. But this year I took the biggest doe in my life with one shot that dropped her on the spot! People who say they don't work have either never tried them or they had poor bullet placement.

Ballistic tips.. For critters up to Coyote size a less expensive varmint bullet would do just as well IMO. I dont doubt that they will do the job on Deer sized game, largley because all of the positive reports on them doing just that. I have a nephew that uses them (sucessfully, so far) on Elk. BUT.. in spite of their excellent accuracy, they still wouldnt be my first choice for large game. Just too explosive, I prefer a traditional SP.

I wouldnt hesitate to use them on deer if that was all I had though.

My 2 cents, for what it's worth:

I killed a 169 B&C Whitetail last year with my 6mm, using 55 gr. Nosler BT's. He ran about 80 yards and keeled over dead.

The moral of this, and any other hunting story, is this: Practice, practice, practice. Shoot as much as you can afford to. Hunters today need to realize that THOUSANDS of game animals have been killed over the years before the days of Ultra Mags and premium bullets. It seems like there are too many hunters out there who spend all kinds of time and money on the equipment itself, and neglect to practice with it.

The aforementioned deer was shot right in the numbers, and the bullet penetrated and totally demolished his chest. I have used other hunting bullets, with similar results. The common denominator is shot placement. Hunters have a responsibility to know their limitations, and to be prepared in the field. Really, taking 3 rounds to your stand is, for lack of a better term, stupid. Had the guy been able to reload, he could have ran another round into the deer and finished him off, instead of watching a gut shot buck go to waste. Congratulate that guy, he is guilty of wonton waste of game. That's my nickel's worth of free advice.

I'm gonna try 180's out of my 300 RUM on BC black bears in the spring. That should be an alright test of how well they work. It will be enough to sell or scare me on them.

I am thinking about trying the 150 grain BalTips in my 7mm RemMag--just trying to decide if it is worth it to dish out the extra dough for the Swift Sciroccos.

Fiftydriver, thanks for taking so much time with the young hunter. I'm sure he learned plenty from the experience. Just goes to show that shot placement is the key. We all enjoy our favorite calibers and favorite bullets, but it's really the same game it was a hundred years ago, hit 'em in the right spot and there's venison on the table. Hit 'em wrong and there's either a tracking job or no meat for the fire. Guy

Fifty Driver,

My bacon has been saved by the ballistic tip opening well on very marginal shots despite hitting no bone in or out.

A careful follow up (overnight wait in one case ) has recovered the deer.

Anyone who shoots at game without checking the zero for themselves is a rank amateur. I am taking a friend out. His zero is 9" low at 100yards with the same rifle that is 1" high in my hands.

By the way please post this on HA and have a debate with Herne!

Won't use them if I want to eat the target. They work most of the time but are unpredictable and too conditional about shot aspect and placement. Other bullets work just fine and are not limited in this context. If I want to DESTROY something small I love them!

A 55gr. 6mm BT is simply irresponsible to use on anything larger than a coyote. I've shot several coyotes and if I hit the heavy shoulder bone, it knocks them flat, but rarely penetrates it. I don't care how much you practice, have more respect for the animals you hunt than you show by using a 55 gr. BT on it! Even a great shot can't predict when a deer will shift just enough to throw that shoulder bone in the equation or turn and take off just as you pull the trigger. I'm sure the 55 gr. did great if you hit the lungs and didn't connect with ribs, but it leaves zero room for error! Be a more ethical hunter than that, please!
Yardbird

Fifty Driver,

Ballistic tip is a great bullet is used right. It' ideal for deer sized game and in 338 and upp it will do well on bigger game.

I like the BT for roe deer, fallow deer and red stag. I know people who works as professional game keepeers and shoots a total bag of 3000-4500 animals( fallow deers, roe bucks and redstags)These animals are sold for their meat.

I guess you should pay less attention to armchair experts

[ 11-20-2002, 23:08: Message edited by: JOHAN ]

Fellow Hunters,

This question is getting just about the response I was expecting. Mostly support with the Ballistic Tip bullets with a few that prefer a conventional type bullet.

I have a couple comments about the last posts since my last comment.

OTTO,

Just last week my brother harvested a huge bodies 6 1/2 year old Mule deer with a 29 1/2" 4x4 set of horns. He used the 120gr 6.5mm ballistic tip out of a 264 Win Mag at a velocity of 3500 fps. The shot was a close one, about 75 yards, so impact velocity was very high.

The bullet did not exit but fully penetrated the chest cavity and killed the +350 pound animal in under 50 yards.

Don;t worry about the 120 gr 6.5mm on deer size critters, they will do fine.

WSTRNHUNTR,

I would agree that for high volume varmint hunting the ballistic tip is a very expansive bullet. Accuracy and terminal performance are top notch but a big pricy for 500 rounds in a weekend of shooting.

As far as using Ballistic Tips on elk size critters, I would have to limit those used to the 180 gr .308" BT and BST and up. If I were on a hunt where I was after a true trophy bull and not just a cow or spike for the freezer, I would say that I would either use the 200 gr Swift A-Frame out of my 300 RUM or the 260 gr Partition out of my 375 RUM.

The Ballisitic Tips, are not my first choice for game that "could" reach 1000 pounds in weight.

MURFTJ,

Congrats on the monster Whitetail. It is obvious that the 55 gr Ballistic Tip in the 6mm will kill a deer but I must also say that I would never, nor could I ever recommend using a varmint ballistic tip for anything larger then coyotes.

While i know they can work with lightning effectiveness, there are also greater chances that something could go wrong. I would rather use the 90 and 95 gr Ballistic Tips in 6mm just for a bit more on game performance.

In all honestly, I feel that for deer size animals, the 100gr .257" Ballistic Tip is as light as I would recommend.

MARKUS,

The 180 gr BT out of your 300 RUM will handle any Black bear that walks most easily. Remember with bear that the vitals are lower and farther forward then other game animals. Punch out the shoulders and center the heart for a quick end, and no more excitement then needed.

FARRIGHT,

In the 7mm Rem Mag the 150 gr Ballistic Tip is more then enough for anything up to 400 pounds. I personally would pay for the Scirocco with that round and bullet weight.

Good Shooting!!

50

Fiftydriver do you think a BT will go through the shoulder bones with out coming apart?

I did just the shot you describe this spring with a nosler parton factory load on a nice Cinnamon bear that destroyed the shoulder and punverized the vitals and left an exit hole the size of my thumb. The range was lasered to 162 yards I believe.

But from what some here have been saying it sounds like a BT might not do the job through the shoulders.

Markus: You have perfectly described the classic performance of a Nosler Partition. The front section is very similar in expansion to the Ballistic Tip -- very expansive. It usually disintegrates within the first foot or less of penetration, breaking the bone if fired through the shoulder and then pulverizing the vitals. At some point the front section is pretty well disbursed in the vitals and the rear section, acting like a solid with a blunted and widened tip, plows through and generally exits, leaving a somewhat larger-than-caliber hole in the off-side.

It is usually mostly the front half which does the killing, but the rear section acts as an insurance policy, making a fair wound channel very deep into the animal if fired from a disadvanageous angle.

With the Ballistic Tip you get similar, or a bit greater, expansion and the solid copper base drives the residual bullet deeper, although not as deep as the rear half of the Partition.

Both are great bullets, with the Ballistic Tip being best suited for generally lighter big game and the Partition offering the advantage on generally heavier big game.

Noslers are excellent bullets, but I wouldn't volunteer to stand in front of a Sierra, Hornady, or Speer, etc., either.

1)"The load used in that rifle drives the 180 gr Ballistic Tip to 3050 fps with right at 1" groups at 100 yards. Other then that I have no idea about its zero. I do know that it had not been range tested prior to this young fellas hunt, in fact his first shot with this rifle was at this "huge" buck at 250 yards."
2) He should have not taken the shot if the buck was that close to the fence line-that was really dumb.
Here's the answer to the problem!!! If you don't know the weapon how can even think about shooting at an animal at 250 yds!! Got to love these weekend hunters

[ 11-21-2002, 02:11: Message edited by: Gunnut45/454 ]

Fiftydriver, I use the same load that you do in.25-06. I've used it for almost five years in three different rifles. The only reason I would or did shoot(and hit) a deer twice would be if it was a large buck and it didn't fall immediatly (bolting delay) on the first shot. I have killed about a dozen deer with that load and I don't foresee any change in my diet. Ranges vary from 12 yards to 300 yards, food plots, pipeline, pine plantations, clearcuts,open woods,you name it......Shot placement varied from quartering front shoulder shots (it did break the shoulder bone, backbone)that hung under the skin of opposite side, perfect heart shots that had complete passthrough, neckshots on does, and the largest buck was even killed with a "Texas heart shot", which I don't recomend but it was the only shot offered and that 22 1/2" 10 point sure looks good on my wall! All of these shots were well placed shots, and all landed where they were intended to go! ALL of these deer were shot purposfully! No spray and pray. NONE of these deer ran over 25 yards. I recovered all of them. only 2 were shot twice(large bucks) and they were actually dead on the first shot. That is as "Real World" as I can get.

Just one experience w/ Ballistic tips. 5 years ago I shot a decent 5x4 muley w/ a 7mm rem mag and 120 gr Bal-tip bullets. Didn't have a chrono at the time, but figured vel around 3400fps. He was bedded down in a eyebrow by a wheat field. The shot was a little high(found out later), but destroyed his lungs. My buddy had my 220 swift as my backup loaded w/ 55 gr vmax@3850fps. At my shot the buck jumped up and took off apparently unscathed. My buddy let one loose w/ the swift and the buck dropped in place. Upon butchering the meat, I found the 55 gr slug in a perfect mushroom just under the hind of the second ham. My 120 gr bullet came apart completely. All I found in the ground behind the bucks bed was the jacket. The bullet took a rib on the way in and then reaked havoc. I would rather not know what would happen if I had to shoot him through the shoulder. In retrospect, yes the bt did the job, but from now on I'll use heavier one for the faster cartridges. For elk I use tougher bullets though. Partitions have performed well, also Barnes x-coated version w/ boattails.
50, email me if you would @ www.src8367@hotmail.com. I have a few ?'s about the 6-284 project w discussed on huntertalk.com/wildcats. Thanks great topic!

The BT is a good bullet, shoots damn nice too. I wouldn't hesitate using any BT from the .30 cal 180 gr and up on moose, and the .264 cal 120 gr is as good or better a deer bullet (for our roe and I'd suppose a lot bigger ones too) as any.

But just don't mention Match Kings on this thread...

-- Mats

Not much to add except that I didn't see any references to .338 experience except theoretical. I have used BTs to take several caribou. The first was a lasered 287 paces. The bullet perforated both shoulder blades and I found it under the skin on the off side. As far as I'm concerned, perfect performance. The bull never left his tracks. In the other cases, the animals never traveled more than a body length. Having said that, my preferred bullet for my .338 when after caribou, is the Barnes 160 XBT. For those that don't know, essentially, a hollow point. I have killed dozens of caribou with a 115 grain HP in 7mm caliber. NONE walked more than a body length. I have watched several shot with 7mm 'hunting' bullets travel up to 100 yards. Furthermore, Sierra started making the GameKing line of bullets, BECAUSE SUCCESSFUL HUNTERS wouldn't quite using the the HOLLOW POINTED MatchKing bullets for hunting.

Most importantly, this topic is 'off-point'. While it is fun to discuss bullet performance and compare recovered bullets, 'around the campfire', heated argument and accusations of 'unethical hunting practices' are stupid. The issue is NOT THE BULLET and it NEVER is! The ONLY issue when using today's modern bullets and cartridges, is point of impact. ANY modern-designed bullet will kill ANY NA deer including moose and elk, if it is placed properly.

I have been hunting the better part of 50 years, and I have NEVER lost a big game animal, and my small game losses (ducks) could be counted on one hand. I have used everything from .17s to .375s to take BIG GAME ranging in size from east-Texas whitetails to Kodiak brown bears. I've shot Kodiak backtails with 250 grain .375s, and they didn't die any deader than the two B&C caribou my daughters have taken with 25 grain HP .17 Rems. Chest shots, NOT head shot, both. (One bull took three steps, the other died in his tracks.)

Spare me the 'ethical' holier-than-thou comments. In my experience, those that pontificate most about ethics, (like those that talk most about sexual prowess), are those least qualified to discuss the subject.

You wanna argue about saved/destroyed meat in the context of bullet design, fine. You wanna talk about pelt destruction on fir-bearers, fine. Kill-and-recover, no. That's a functioon of hunting skill and maturity, NOT bullet design.

Put the bullet where it's supposed to go. PERIOD. The animal will die, and except under extraordinary circumstances, you will recover the animal. (If you want to.)

Just my humble opinion.

Paul

BTW, the ONLY big game animal I ever personally witnessed lost was one shot with a .300 Win Mag shooting 180 grain Nosler Partitions. Maybe we better quit using those Partitions, too many lost animals.

A couple of thoughts:

1) The comment about it being about bullet placement, and not the bullet itself, is 100% correct. When all else fails, if you hit a lung or heart, the critter dies.

2) The comment about me being unethical...I ask: Who in the hell do you think you are? Do you know who I am and how I hunt? Do you know whether or not I can shoot? Most important, were you there to see the whole thing unfold? Nothing unethical about a quick, clean kill buddy.

3) Meat damage...realize that, with any bullet, meat is going to be destroyed, that is a given. Your bullet has to hit somewhere, and therefore some meat needs to be sacraficed. The idea is to minimize the amount of meat destroyed, by shooting and hitting in the chest, where there isn't much meat on the ribs of a deer anyway.

4) As for coyotes, we must realize that the bone structure of a coyote is much denser and tougher than that of a whitetail deer. That's why we hunt them with high velocity, high impact bullets, without destroying the fur, which is bringing good money as we speak.

Bottom Line: Become a better shot, and be able to put one in the pumphouse when it counts.

MHO, for what it is worth.

Tp all,

Thanks again for all the replies, I wanted to get the opinions of experienced hunters on this subject because I get tired of those "heard it from my buddy" hunters about how the Ballistic Tips are worthless maming bullets. I have certainly got the attention form some very experienced hunters and I thank you for sharing.

What I don;t want is this thread to become a pissin' match. Unfortunately, with experience also often times comes ego. Many on this thread have harvested many dozens of big game animals in the manor that we feel is correct because it works for us time and again. Remember that others have different ways that work and that the only result that we should care about is that the game we all harvest should be done so as humanely and quickly as possible.

I would like to respond to some of the last few posts:

MARKUS,

For hunting BLACK BEAR, I would never hesitate at all to drive a Ballistic Tip of at least .308" caliber and of at least 165 gr in weight directly into the shoulder of the biggest Black Bear. That said, I would personally choose the 180 gr .308" or a 200 gr .338" Ballistic Tip if I were to use one on Black Bears.

For the Big bears, the 260 gr .375" ballistic tip may work but I wouldn't bet my hide on it, use a stout bullet. For me it would be the 300 gr A-Frame at 2900 fps out of my 375 RUM.

Good Hunting!!!

50

GUNNUT45/454,

Unfortunately friend, I hate to say that probably 75% of the hunters out there prepare for hunting season just as this young man did. It is the sad reality that we need to keep trying very hard to educate all hunters to be more responsible and competent.

Ask anyone in any local gun shop if they could take one of the rifles off the rack and kill a deer at 250 yards and I bet 100% would say it would be easy. I would also say damn near that many on this web sight would say the same when we all know it is simply not true.

Eric J,

I agree that this is a great hunting load. I can not say that I agree with the "Texas Heart Shot" but I can not argue with the fact that you harvested the deer quickly.

The +300 pound whitetails here in Montans would not succume to this shot unless a much deeper penetrating rifle was used.

I agree with your assesment of the 120 gr BT's performance out of the 7mm Rem Mag. It is simply not a heavy enough bullet to perform at the velocities the 7MM Mag can produce.

I have used the 120 gr BT in my XP-100 handguns in 7mm BR and 7mm-08 where velocities are in the 2500-2700 fps range and this bullet works great on deer size game. Still it is light and I wouldn't intentionally aim for an onside shoulder.

For the 7mm Mag class and up I would at least use the 140 gr and the 150 gr would be even better in the larger 7mm magnums such as the STW and RUM.

For some reason I was unable to contact you by e-mail so here is my address so you can get ahold of me, I love talking about the 6mm-284, it is a great round with few peers in its class.

kballen@3rivers.net

Good Hunting!!!

50

GITANO,

You must have missed my earlier posts where I discribed the two deer I harvested this year with my XP-100 in the wildcat 338-300 WSM. One was a 350 pound 4x5 mule deer buck harvested with one shot at 317 yards quartering away. The 180 gr BT starting out at 2950 fps, entered just behind the last rib and exited just ahead of the offside shoulder. The buck walked 25 yards down hill an died.

The second was a large mule deer doe at 178 yards. The same load was used and I hit her square in the heart with a square broadside shot. There was about 1.5" of the bottom of her heart left. The BT made a +2" hole in and around a 1.5" hole going out. The doe never moved except for rolling down the hill.

As far as shooting the caribou with the .17 Rem, I would say congrats to your daughter but that isn't the right gun for the job. Even a 22-250 with a 55 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw or 60 gr Partition would be head and shoulders ahead of that little pill for taking game but as I said earlier, if the animals were harvested quickly and cleanly, congrats!

Good Hunting!!!

50

murftj,

you missed the point about 'ethics' all together. My comment WAS NOT aimed at you. It was aimed at those that accuse others of unethcal behaviour. BTW, I know who the hell I am.

fiftydriver,
I'm not gonna argue about 'appropriateness' of bullets. I thought I made myself clear what I thought those arguements were. There is a simple, no-BS test. WAS/ARE/IS the animal(s) harvested cleanly. PERIOD.

I really don't care what others think about my hunting equipment. I've also expressed myself as clearly as I can, about what I think about 'disussions' about OTHER PEOPLE'S ethics. To restate it differently, you (not necessarily YOU fiftydriver) mind your ethics, and I'll mind mine. When I start losing game, you can start criticising my equipment or techniques.

WRT 55 grain .22 cal. bullets, THOUSANDS of caribou are killed EVERY YEAR in Alaska by natives using .223s with 55 grain bullets. It's one of the 'preferred' cartridges.

I didn't miss your .338 post, I just forgot it by the time I got down to the bottom of this and prepared to respond.

My orifginal response was NOT intended to irate, nor is this one. Furthermore, I'm NOT 'offended' by comments made to me since my post. I am a successful, long-in-the-tooth, hunter with no lost big game. I'm too old to care what 'armchair' hunters think about my methods or equipment.(Don't get your panties in a bunch, I'm NOT calling YOU an armchair hunter.)

My desire is to hunt and enjoy it, and my hope is that others may hunt and enjoy it too.

Paul

[ 11-23-2002, 08:26: Message edited by: gitano ]

I had a similar experience on 'recommending' a ballistic tip. Sat with my brother in law at the loading bench and had two bullets there for his .30-06. I had 150 BT and 180 speer spitzers. Told him the ballistic tips would really yank the rug out from under deer, but had to be chest hits. The 180 might be a little less destructive, but provide a little better penetration on a bad angle. He assured me he would take only good shots and we loaded the BT. He later brought in two does to skin, shot square through the rump and lost about 5 lbs. of meat each. Everybody scowled at...ME!
We have stopped using BT on deer here, though we have never lost a deer with them. We think they are a little destructive (we have also seen the very large 'blowout' entrance wound) and I don't trust them if I choose to take a quartering shot. Saw a lot of jacket separations even at 2500 fps in my shooting range back stop. We try to select bullets for the worst case scenario, and they work fine on the chest shots as well. I have heard that some of the heavier BT bullets may be a little tougher now than they used to be. Most of the ones we shot were 6.5 mm. I am thankful to live in a free country where we have so many choices to bitch about.

The poor workman always blames his tools.........

Gitano, I agree with your post 100%! While I haven't kill the amount of game some of the fourm members have I have killed my fair share. And NOT ONE TIME has a bullet failed. I have failed on 3 occasions. I would not hesitate to use the 30 cal. Nosler B.T. on deer. I have used the 125-150-and the 165 BT from my 308 with a dead deer for every shot and I have yet to recover one and that includes the 125 gr. BT Best I can tell from my hunting diary I have taken 29 deer with BT bullets. Another thread questions the Sierra GK GEZZZZZZZ give me a break. That bullet will not blow up if driven at any reasonable velocity. Actually that is my favorite feral hog bullet in the 165 gr. weight. Complete penetration every time including the shoulders on several occasions. Gentlemen the hunter is weak link not the bullets!

Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight.......RiverRat

Greetings, although I rarely come here I always find something of interest when I do and of course this is one of those occasions. I really have nothing of technical nature to add but see that there are no pictures posted of BT performance and thought that someone might enjoy my limited experience with the 140BT in my 7STW at 3400-3430 fps. The following photo, though a bit gross for some, is of a 125# field dressed whitetail buck that I shot at approximately 100 yards. The deer died instantly from the hit but I was greatly surprised at the surface wound. The point of impact is the large wound and perhaps the exit is the smaller opening a bit lower. There was considerable internal damage which I assume was the result of hydro shock since it appeared that there wasn't a channel that was obvious for bullet fragments.