A little Back ground, The first Rifle I ever worked up a load for was My Rem 700 .270. I was new to reloading and just figuring things out. I had a friend who was helping me and I was using his equipment (this was before I bought any of my own reloading equipment)and I had found Steve's reloading Data pages which listed RL-15 and 130gr bullet as start 41.0 and Max as 50.0 gr. (my friend didn't reccommend I double check that data, only that I work up to Max) I worked up carefully and settled on 49.0gr RL-15, and sierra 130gr BTSP and loaded 100 rounds. It was 3/4 moa accurate and showed only minor pressure (slightly flattened primer) and I killed several elk and deer with it over the next few years. My son took his first deer with that rifle and load last fall, but I was running low on ammo so I bought some more 130gr sierra's and set about to load up some more bullets. Well having more rescources and much more experience now, I grabbed my sierra reloading book and looked up their 130gr btsp and RL-15 loads. They listed 45gr as Max load . I checked other reloading books and found similar recommendations(ie a Max Load of 45.0gr). I double and triple checked my load data thinking that maybe I recorded my load wrong. I even pulled down a couple to verify I actually had loaded 49gr Rl-15.

Well upshot was I decided I needed to start over and work up a load within Saami pressure limits. I found after resizing my brass that the primer pockets were loose(of course) and so I bought new brass. I loaded 10 rounds in .3gr increments with the highest being the recommended 45.0gr.
I was using the ladder method so I went to the range this morning at dawn and set up on the 200 yard bench. (no 300yd bench at my range). I shoot one fouling round and then start at the bottom load of 42.3gr. The shot hits high and left and I note the location on a second target with a pen. But didn't immediatly notice a problem at 200 yards. Then I shoot load two 42.6gr. I look through the scope and there on the target low and left is a perfect bullet silhouette keyhole. . I stop and drive up to look and verify. yep keyhole, and I then notice that the hole from shot 1 was longer than it should have been. I then shoot 42.9 gr and it missed the box, so did 43.2. 43.5 was another keyhole. 43.8 and 44.1 missed. 44.4 clipped the bottom of the box but looked to be sideways as well. Finally 44.7 made a round hole as did 50.0.

Frustrated I grabbed one of the remaining 49.0gr loads and tried one just to see if they still shot. It shot right to POA. (Like they have since I loaded them)

So Now I'm not sure, is my .270 just not able to stabilize the 130gr sierra btsp at lower loads? Since I show no signs of pressure at 45.0 (and since I have been shooting it at 49.0 for the last 100 rounds ) I think I will try 45.3 and 45.6 and see what happens. Keyholing on a BBl that has only a few hundred rounds total shot through it is odd to me, so I'm curious as to what other think about what might be happening.

Also in case anyone missed the lesson...DOUBLE CHECK YOUR REFERENCES. SRDP is the only reference I can find with a max load over 45.0 gr with 130gr bullet and rl-15, so the 50gr max load may be very dangerous.

Any thoughts?

First I'd like to know how many rounds are through your rifle?

I had a 22-250 that was so worn out, it keyholed.

Secondly, I'd check the twist rate of your barrel and the recommendations for the bullet you're using. I can't imagine that it would be wrong for such a common bullet as the 130 SGK. It should work.

How many high-pressure loads have you shot? If the primer pockets are loose, you have overpressure.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
First I'd like to know how many rounds are through your rifle?

I had a 22-250 that was so worn out, it keyholed.

Secondly, I'd check the twist rate of your barrel and the recommendations for the bullet you're using. I can't imagine that it would be wrong for such a common bullet as the 130 SGK. It should work.

How many high-pressure loads have you shot? If the primer pockets are loose, you have overpressure.

Thanks, I supplied all that info except twist rate in my OP. I believe it is 1-10. About 100 of the 49.0gr were shot. And the rifle has far less than 500 rounds through it. My best estimate would be 3-400. When I first bought it It was my only rifle. so I shot it quite a bit for about a year. Since then I have been able to get a rifle for about every specific task I need so This rifle is usually shot less than 10 rounds a year, just enough to verify zero and kill a deer. This last year was an ecxeption because when My son decided to use it for deer season I had him shoot enough to get comfortable with it, so He put 30-40 rounds through it getting ready for deer season.

One other thing, This rifle has always been ammo "picky". Before I reloaded for it, I noticed it would either shoot a specific ammo great or like crap. For instance The first 2 boxes of bullets I bought for it were Federal and federal premium. It shot the federal cheep stuff to about 1.5 moa and the Federal premium to 3/4 MOA with 5 shot groups. I was very happy with it...till I bought some remington and winchester ammo. The winchester ammo was 5-6 moa and the remington was hard to hit a pie plate at 100 yards.
so I stayed with Federal until I started reloading for it.

put calipers on the BULLETS in question ...
keyholing is due to a size mismatch (most of the time)

RL-15 is a very fast-burning powder for a .270. Why did you select it? Regardless, the problem is probably inadequate velocity with loads which are within acceptable pressures.

The lower the velocity of a given bullet, the faster the twist required to stabilize it. I suspect that your low velocity loads are simply too slow to stabilize that bullet using the standard twist. It is only when you approach excessive pressures that the velocity is adequate for stabilization.

If you like the RL series of powders, go get some RL-22, which is a much more appropriate powder for this cartridge/bullet combination. Use the readily available loading data to work up a load your rifle likes. This powder will come near to completely filling your case. It will generate velocities which are several hundred FPS faster than the RL-15, so you will get both more power and more accuracy.

Other suitable powders would be H-4831, IMR-7828, IMR-4831, or IMR-4350.

actually rl-19 is a better fit.

if you aren't pushing the bullet fast enough you will have stability issues.
you use the faster twist rates for longer bullets.

i'd switch to the slower powder to avoid pressure issues.

the rl line of powders does not meter well and needs to be weighed individually for best results.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
put calipers on the BULLETS in question ...
keyholing is due to a size mismatch (most of the time)

+1

Also check your muzzle for damage. Then take a factory .270 cartridge and insert it bullet first into the muzzle. The bullet should not go all the way into the muzzle.

If you don't see anything that way, I'd have someone borescope it. I bet that the barrel is shot out. A factory .270 barrel ought to stabilize a 130gr bullet at nearly any velocity, especially if it is a 10 twist.

1 Check bullet diameter first. 2 Then , does the gun shot better after firing 10 shots, when the barrel is dirty? If so, barrel shot out. 3. Clean the barrel well, if rough infront of chamber, bullet jacket could be getting ripped on firing. 4.Check muzzle crown, any dings? If yes, recrown muzzle.

quote:

Originally posted by 243winxb:
1 Check bullet diameter first. 2 Then , does the gun shot better after firing 10 shots, when the barrel is dirty? If so, barrel shot out. 3. Clean the barrel well, if rough infront of chamber, bullet jacket could be getting ripped on firing. 4.Check muzzle crown, any dings? If yes, recrown muzzle.

1 I checked bullet diameter they are all .277. and they wont come close to fitting in the muzzle. 2, no It only has the issue at lower velocities. 3. I keep my guns clean, but even so I took it home and scrubbed the bore till it was sparkling. Took it out and shot some hotter loads and it shot just fine. 4. the muzzle is fine it was one of the first things I checked. I'm thinking I just need a new powder. Shame cause I just bought more rel-15..

Check you crown, gets some H4831 or 4350

Alliant Data shows: 47.3 gr R15 / 130 speer/ 2840fps

49 grains of RL-15 isn't out of the question. For example, Swift lists 49 grains as the max with their 130 grain bullets. If you are only seeing slight pressure signs and you have fired this recipe safely in your gun for a long time, then I would stick with the original recipe.

I agree RL-19 might have been a more ideal choice, but there is no doubt that many of the bullet manufacturers think RL-15 is perfectly acceptable. I checked several of my reloading manuals and four of the books listed RL-15 for the 270 Winchester and 130 grain bullets.

twist calc tool says ..
250fps (two HUNDRED fifty) would require a 10.2:twist for a 1.13" long bullet .. at 1500, 12 will be fine ..

quickload predicts the 42 gr at a bit over 2500 .. within twist range ..

remember, 130 IS a standard and LIGHT bullet, not a super long heavy one.

who wants to bet he's got 264 bullets?

I would check the muzzle first I had a 7x57 that would key every thing cut 1.5 inch off barrel recrowned it. now shoots very well.

I'll bet my left nut that all your problems stem from an improper powder choice, not a gun problem!

As 277 bullets are quite long for their weight, even 130's, you need to push them above 3000fps to have them stabilise.

I load 60gr's of RE22 in my 270 with 130's, this combo has worked in every 270 I've tried it in!
It shoots just under 1MoA in every gun it's been tried in.

quote:

who wants to bet he's got 264 bullets?

I will take this bet! What are the odds?

Jeffosso,
The OP has already stated that he measured his bullets and they were .277".
I had a similar thing happen when I was fooling around with my 270 and 25-06 with reduced loads for a friends son to use, anything below 250fps under the normal operating velocity would keyhole EVERY time.
The bullets are just not being pushed fast enough!

Has your barrel been fire lapped using a product like David Tubb's Final Finish? Final Finish One rifle i had in 243win had an oversize bore. It would key hole some brands of bullets.Shot badly till 10 or more shots were fired, than was normal. The spitzer soft point would leave on target a lead smear around the bullet hole when shot on white paper. The hot gas gets past the bullet and melts the nose. Air friction keeps it that way till it hits the target. This heat along with friction (rough bore) in long barrels can make the lead core liquid. Studies @ Berger bullets have proven this. Your over maximum load may expand the bullets copper base some when over 56,900 PSI sealing the oversize bore better. When i say oversize, as little as .0005" can make a difference. Powder does not cause Keyholes for the most part, only if you are way over maximum PSI and causing blowby of hot gas past the bullets.

Your powder is too fast IMHO to start with. From Sierra's latest manual for their 130 gr. bullet:
Rldr-22- start = 52.2 gr., max.= 58.2 grs.
The "Accuracy Load" is 56.7 gr. of Rldr-22 for an estimated vel. of 3000 fps.
Other powders I might look at are:
H-4831- start = 52.1 gr., Max = 59.2 gr.
IMR-4350 - start = 48.2 gr., MAx = 55.0 gr.
These are all from the Sierra manual.
While I have a .270 Win., I only load 150 gr. bullets and I use Rldr-22 for it.
I also reference Steve's Pages but I ALWAYS try to find a load in a manual to compare it to.
BTW, Sierra doesn't even list Rldr-15 for their 130 gr. bullet for the .270 Win.
I thin kyou should get several load manuals & go from there.
Bear in Fairbanks

Bore- Another possibility is you have a tight area in the middle of your barrel/bore. The bullet is sized smaller when it hits this constriction.At normal pressure, gas blows by the bullet causing keyholes. Your high pressure rounds would cause the bullet to obturate/expand after the constriction. You may benifit by doing some fire lapping if this is the cause.

quote:

As 277 bullets are quite long for their weight, even 130's, you need to push them above 3000fps to have them stabilise.

I gotta call BS here on this. There are simply too many rifles out there shooting 130and even heavier weight bullets in .277 less than 2900 much less 3000fps that shoot little bug hole groups.

Now I DO have some .277" bullets that are long for caliber and WILL keyhole even at 3K from a standard 1-10, but they are 169.5 and 195gr RBBT ULD's.

(L to R) 150gr Nosler SB, 169.5 and 195gr Wildcat

I have loaded plenty of non key holing 130 and 150gr bullets down to just over 2300fps from a 22" barrel, and they shot very nice little groups out to 150yds, both with spitzer and RN, and these were quite a bit longer than the 130's.

I would have to agree with a couple of other post that you might have your barrel scoped or the crown checked, and possibly try another powder just for good measure.

Are you sure that the twist is 1-10 ?

I once had a custom barrel come thru with a 1-18 by mistake.

Have you made a "cast" of the bore and checked the dia ? It might be .279 or even .284

Good point Terry,
I now own a Colt Light "270" Win. as marked on the barrel. My friend who bought it, could not even get it on paper. When he did, it was keyholed. Turns out, it is a 30-06 mis-stamped by Colt. He did not even notice the expanded necks of the fired cases, low recoil, etc. Colt advised that there was nothing they could do about it as their deal with Mel Forbes no longer existed.

He hated the rifle, put it away. I bought it for only $200. It shoots 30-06 cartridges very well.

Geoff

I have seen a 270 win chambered barrel that turned out to have 7mm rifling,keyholed every time.

I very recently had a barrel stamped P.O. Ackley and 25-06 that was a take off from a pre 64 Win 70. There was plenty of shank so I set it back, and rechambered it to 257 Roberts Imp. The gun would not hit the paper @ 100yds. I thought it was a scope or mounting issue. I tinkered and shimmed to get the elevation up. Nothing worked.
I was cleaning it. I mistakenly used a larger cleaning brush. It didn't hit me yet. I thought gee, I never pushed a large bore brush through a Roberts that easily. I grabbed a 257 bullet and it fell through the bore. The daggone barrel was a 270 not the 25-06 it was stamped! One good barreland 20 pieces of brass are now junk!

Here's someone reckoned he was using 59gr of RL15 with 130gr bullets:

http://www.reloadersnest.com/f...ic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1438

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
I very recently had a barrel stamped P.O. Ackley and 25-06 that was a take off from a pre 64 Win 70. There was plenty of shank so I set it back, and rechambered it to 257 Roberts Imp. The gun would not hit the paper @ 100yds. I thought it was a scope or mounting issue. I tinkered and shimmed to get the elevation up. Nothing worked.
I was cleaning it. I mistakenly used a larger cleaning brush. It didn't hit me yet. I thought gee, I never pushed a large bore brush through a Roberts that easily. I grabbed a 257 bullet and it fell through the bore. The daggone barrel was a 270 not the 25-06 it was stamped! One good barreland 20 pieces of brass are now junk!

So, you have a .270x57 Improved?

quote:

Originally posted by 243winxb:
Has your barrel been fire lapped using a product like David Tubb's Final Finish? Final Finish One rifle i had in 243win had an oversize bore. It would key hole some brands of bullets.Shot badly till 10 or more shots were fired, than was normal. The spitzer soft point would leave on target a lead smear around the bullet hole when shot on white paper.The hot gas gets past the bullet and melts the nose. Air friction keeps it that way till it hits the target.This heat along with friction (rough bore) in long barrels can make the lead core liquid.Studies @ Berger bullets have proven this. Your over maximum load may expand the bullets copper base some when over 56,900 PSI sealing the oversize bore better. When i say oversize, as little as .0005" can make a difference. Powder does not cause Keyholes for the most part, only if you are way over maximum PSI and causing blowby of hot gas past the bullets.

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing". Fortunately, this poster still has a ways to go before making it to the "dangerous" catagory.

quote:

Originally posted by BECoole:

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
I very recently had a barrel stamped P.O. Ackley and 25-06 that was a take off from a pre 64 Win 70. There was plenty of shank so I set it back, and rechambered it to 257 Roberts Imp. The gun would not hit the paper @ 100yds. I thought it was a scope or mounting issue. I tinkered and shimmed to get the elevation up. Nothing worked.
I was cleaning it. I mistakenly used a larger cleaning brush. It didn't hit me yet. I thought gee, I never pushed a large bore brush through a Roberts that easily. I grabbed a 257 bullet and it fell through the bore. The daggone barrel was a 270 not the 25-06 it was stamped! One good barreland 20 pieces of brass are now junk!

So, you have a .270x57 Improved?

Yes that is what it is. Custom dies and your set. I don't like wrong headstamps though.

quote:

Originally posted by 416RigbyHunter:
I'll bet my left nut.

quote:

who wants to bet he's got 264 bullets?

I will take this bet! What are the odds?

Let's leave our fun berries out of this one Here's my two cents. The barrel is toast! Too much pressure and too much heat. I would walk that thing to the nearest competent G Smith and have it inspected inside and out before doing one thing more!

quote:

...The hot gas gets past the bullet and melts the nose. Air friction keeps it that way till it hits the target. This heat along with friction (rough bore) in long barrels can make the lead core liquid. Studies @ Berger bullets have proven this. ...

I disagree with both thoughts above. The reason I do is because all the above is a bunch of marketing bologna.

So, who to believe? Believe yourself and do an actual Test at 500yds or more. Here is what you do:
1. Load 10 bullets as you normally would that have Lead Tips.
2. Load 10 more and twist-off or file-off the Lead Tips.
3. Shoot them yourself at a long enough distance that it will matter.

If the Lead Tipped Bullets impact "Higher" than the ones with the Tips removed, then all the above quote is Marketing Bologna.

Easy to see for yourself what the truth is.

Strange things can happen in a barrel.I have seen a few, Believe It or Not. Good reading here, post #9 http://www.benchrest.com/forum...owthread.php?t=49336 "Failures have several causes. The most common is produced by the core melting. The core melts because it gets too hot. The core gets too hot because of the FRICTION between the rifling and bearing surface. This has been proven to be the hottest part of the bullet as it moves through the barrel. This area has been shown in high speed, infared images reaching tempuratures at the melting point of lead.

Other causes for failure are excessive RPM. Since most shooters use factory (bullet or barrel) recommended twist rates failures due to excessive twist rates are rare (but do happen).

Rarer still is a failure caused by extreme barrel issues (damaged bore) extremely poor loading practices (damaged bullet) or extremely poor cleaning practices (which further increases friction).

Another extremely rare cause is related to bullet production issues. Bullet construction that is poor enough to result in bullet failure (and where bullet failure would not have occurred for any other reason) can theoretically occur in situations where standard QA and production procedures are ignored almost completely. I am sure that this is possible but is as unlikely as I can imagine (from all bullet makers).

These reasons for failure are true for all bullets. Bullets from every maker can experience failure under the right (or wrong) conditions. Recently, Sierra has made public that they are discontinuing the production of 6mm 117 gr DTAC due to repeated failures. I do not mean to pick on Sierra but this is a recent example. ALL BULLET MAKERS HAVE BULLETS THAT FAIL AND MOST FAILURES ARE CAUSED BY THE MELTING OF THE CORE.

At Berger I am committed to making bullets Walt's way. I was not going to change the bullets in any way unless I was certain that a change would solve the issue and not affect precision. We have been working on this issue for many years. It became apparent that making the jacket thicker in key areas was likely to produce a solution. This test proved that we were correct.

The theory that the lead being too high in the nose was dismissed as a cause of bullet failure long ago. This test proves that the height of the lead in the nose does not affect failure. Mike, I will spell it out for you because I know you have a hard time keeping up with the facts already discussed.

Proof that the lead height in the nose does not cause failures: During this test the bullets that failed were made with regular jackets. The bullets that did not fail (not a single bullet) were made with thicker jackets. The outside dimensions on these bullets were exactly the same as they were made in the same set up and no adjustments were made to the ogive dies between the two bullets.

If the outsides of the bullets are dimensionally the same and the jackets of the bullets that did not fail are thicker then this means that the lead was higher in the nose of the thicker jacketed bullets (that did not fail).

I'll take this even further. The reality of nose deformation is that the nose of a bullet can "slump" when put under high pressure situations. When the "lead is too high in the nose" theory was being discussed the reason why it was linked to bullet failure is due to the nose defroming under the pressure of the bullet being fired. When the thicker jackets were shot during this test none of them failed but several rounds had blown primers. We did not have any blown primers when the bullets made with regular jackets were shot. Blown primers are a sign of increased pressure.

Let's go one step further. One of the very real results that occurs when nose deformation does exist is poor precision due to an inconsistent change of the ogive portion of the bullet. The one target that was shot for score was a 12 o'clock 6 (due to scope adjustments), 8-X's and 1-10. Also, those watching through spotting scopes commented on the consistency of the bullets impacting the same area of the berm.

Summary of the facts discussed on the "lead too high in the nose" concern:

Bullets made on regular jackets with lower lead line produce multiple bullet failures and no high pressure signs.

Bullets made on thicker jackets with higher lead line produce no bullet failures and some high pressure signs.

I hope this finally puts the "lead too high causing bullet failures" discussion to bed from those who frequent these forums. I would expect such a thing from a new visitor but Mike, you have been harrasing folks on these forums for a while and have read all of this before.

The twist rate of the barrels was 8.5". Before you go down this particular road (of ignoring the test results) this produces roughly 254,000 RPM which is well within acceptable limits."

Yeah, melting the lead core of bullets has always been a problem. Just look at those billions of military FMJ's with exposed lead at the base where the "hot gasses" of the burning powder charge are focused directly on them. If you think the exposed lead noses burn off due to some gas leakage, you should see how those FMJ's get hollowed out by the time they leave the barrel! Billions of empty bullet jackets have fallen harmlessly on the dirt of Europe and Asia for the last 100 years. Most of the war casualties were due to breathing air saturated with vaporized lead.

This discussion is to ballistics what Tea Party rantings about Death Panels are to political discourse. "And, by God, the Government better keep its hands off of my Veterans Benefits and Medicare!"

Excellent point Stonecreek.