The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Should we hav to pay for reloading manualsGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Should we hav to pay for reloading manuals | Login/Join |
one of us |
I've have kind of been of the opinion that reloading manuals (Date at least) be free. I see it as double dipping. The companies want us to purchase their bullets, dies, presses, powder measures, scales etc but thay they also want the comsumer to BUY the data to use the product that you had to buy from them in the first place.   I do salute Hodgon as their data is made available free of charge. Part two do you think that manuals have gotten too expensive?  Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | ||
|
one of us |
By the time the component folks do the testing, compiling and printing, I don't have a problem with them charging for their manuals. I have the option of purchasing or not depending if I am using their components or if there are updates that I want. With the advent of info on the web, manuals are probably going to be less and less common. I do enjoy reading the history of some of the cartridges and the bios that are in some of the manuals when I don't have anything better to do. OR I can just go on AR and get entertained by the this cartridge vs that cartridge thread or ones about how a 223 is a suitable elk cartridge  Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
|
| One of Us |
The way I look at it, we don't have to buy the manuals or for that matter the powder. I buy both, and get a lot of loads off the net also. NRA Patron member | |||
|
| One of Us |
I voted no. I just bought Hodgdon's '13 RELOADING magazine. Much easier for me to reach for a book, plus comments and articles are always interesting in the manuals. | |||
|
One of Us |
I disagree. Free is better, especially with disclaimers about how every rifle is different and what may be a max load in our manual may be an over load in your rifle. If you want us to buy your product give us the info to use it. A printed manual is good to have but; a) there is only so much cartridge history to read, and b)it doesn't cost $40 to print and distribute it every few years. And another thing, when you put out a "new" manual don't release a bullet at the same time that isn't in it. A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work. | |||
|
| One of Us |
PS: You have one question and two sets of answers. On the posted question "Yes", on the second unasked question, manuals cost too much related to material and printing costs. A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I have no problem paying for a manual. I often get upset my choice of powders are not listed but I also understand they can't put them all in. Molon Labe New account for Jacobite | |||
|
| One of Us |
I have no problem buying a load book. You get a lot more than just a page of loads. regardless of whose bullets you use or whose powder you use, you'd be in a hell of a fix if you (and everybody else) had to start at ground zero for everyone of your cartridges. A lot of work goes into compiling a load book. I can't see where anyone could resent paying for that information. Aim for the exit hole | |||
|
| One of Us |
I think the loading manuals cost to much considering I am buying their product to shoot. Here is why I think they cost too much. When a new edition of the manuals are released you do not get all new data. 95% of the data is the same old data from earlier editions. You can look at some of the manuals and find 50 year old data. When you buy a "new" manual you get data for 4 or 5 new cartridges and 4 or 5 new bullets. They may add a new powder or two for a few of the most popular rounds but that is about it. The rest of the manual is the same old stuff. Not that the same old stuff is bad but you are being charged for something your already have if you own the previous edition. | |||
|
one of us |
NOTHING should be free. My reason is simple. If you get something for free, someone else is paying for it. Jim "Bwana Umfundi" NRA | |||
|
| one of us |
Very true.Also,giving something for free in the hope of luring someone to buy something else will have everyone giving everything for free and kill all business.That something that you give away for free is what others are relying on to sell and earn their living.I like the Barnes manual alot also like the swift and Nosler manuals. | |||
|
| One of Us |
i know most y'all remember the phamplets they used to put out with data in them? i used to grab one of those when there was a new powder out i was interested in. sometimes the phamplet was just about one powder. i have one for american select,accurate 2495Br,aa-2700,and a couple of other kicking about. but those little phamplets were nice,free data,storage information,bushing drops for different machines [shotgun],and some warnings, without all the die set-ups and hearing about some dudes hunting trip one time. oh yeah those were free. | |||
|
| one of us |
just about everthing you want to reload or read about is on line somewhere.. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Ain't no such thing as a free lunch. If you don't want the manual, do the right thing and don't buy it.If you will use the information to better what you produce, cowboy up and buy the book. Besides, there are sources to obtain many loadings. Do YOU want to get paid for your labor? I'll bet you do. Generally speaking, If something is not rewarded you will get less of it. Do you want fewer options? Just asking. Given the cost of everything else in our hobby, the cost of a manual that needs replacing once every 3 to 5 years or so is so small as to be considered a rounding error. Just my thoughts, Gary | |||
|
| One of Us |
it's free - it's call the internet | |||
|
| One of Us |
I don’t mind paying for reloading manuals, what I do mind is that the Speer manual is printed in China. My copy of Speer #8was printed in Portland, Oregon, #14 came from China. All the other American manuals I have were printed in the United States, including Hornady #9. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Thousands of bullets, counless pounds of powder, rifle barrels, techs to load ,shoot, and compile data, printing costs, shipping costs. Yeah they should be free, and somebody should give me a job I love, and watch my kids, and make sure I don't spill boiling coffee on my reproductive area. Buck up and support what you love. | |||
|
| one of us |
I have Speer #13, printed in USA. I am very disappointed to hear they found it necessary to have it printed in China. Jim "Bwana Umfundi" NRA | |||
|
Moderator |
Well my opinion? This is a socialist's question. You are not required to buy anything . Not to reload. But if you want to be safer than you could be then buy the book INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS. OWS was dead set against them too opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
Jeff it's not so much intellectual property. I'll answer that and this at once. NOTHING should be free. My reason is simple. If you get something for free, someone else is paying for it. The company that makes bullet Y or powder X does product testing to determine how it works and what is or isn't safe. We pay R and D cost when we buy the product. So when you buy the product the data has already been paid for. It would be like saying you can buy a tool but have to pay an extra charge for the instructions. A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work. | |||
|
One of Us |
That's what happens when the government imposes a minimum wage and excessive taxes. The cost of paper goes up, the cost of shipping goes up, the cost of printing and binding goes up. Even the cost of labor goes up because the workers must be paid above and beyond what they would normally need to be paid because everything those workers buy has become unnecessarily bloated in price with excessive fees and taxes. Would you have bought Hornady #14 if it cost twice the price just for the satisfaction of knowing it was made in the USA? Few people would. You can't blame a business for doing what it must to produce products at reasonable prices. Successful USA businesses are not successful because of the government. They are successful in spite of the government. Hornady just made a good business decision. | |||
|
one of us |
This is a strange question. Its NOT your decision to make unless you own the company. If the companies business plan says sell books, they are going to sell them. Don't like the book or the price buy from another company.   You can find just about anything for free on the internet or a blog. | |||
|
| Administrator |
Basically, there is nothing inlife that is free. And I am more than happy to pay for reloading manuals that do provide good information. Sadly, a lot of the newermanuals are rediculously conservative. | |||
|
| one of us |
Lawyers  Jim "Bwana Umfundi" NRA | |||
|
| One of Us |
Contact Obama--he seems to think that anything should be free. Maybe the OP thinks the cost of firing all those loads should be included in the price of components? All resources have value and should cost the user something--see "supply and demand" for an explanation of how economies work, whether "free" or centrally planned. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Sadly, old data was often overly optimistic as they couldn't measure instantaneous pressures that exceeded SAAMI standards. Now we can get pressure traces that show the spikes in pressure and loads had to be adjusted down. This is why some powders have only 0.5gn or less between start and max--that powder tends to throw pressure spikes in that cartridge. I wish they would simply publish that fact and not even print the data. Thank God that guns are proofed and can take minor over-pressure loads without disassembly. | |||
|
| One of Us |
That was good: "...without disassembly." :-) | |||
|
| one of us |
  Some public libraries also have loading books, especially interesting if you are looking for a discontinued cartridge or a powder that is not in production now. | |||
|
| one of us |
It would be nice to buy a reloading book or manuel with alot of info and testing-more than we have ever seen before.One with chamber pressure included. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Lyman's are pretty good, pressure data, lots of info and they use everyone's components. If you think about the lab time, price of the components, pressure test equipment, etc., the books are not really that expensive. I expect there is also a fair amount of liability insurance that goes with such endeavors. You either make the book pay for it self or jack up the price of your products. C.G.B. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Perhaps most importantly is the seminal concept of S.A.M.M.I. (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute). It is a voluntary organization Read their welcome message (and it seems to me, their mission statement) here: http://www.saami.org/ I don't begrudge them the price of a manual (or manuals, as I have several). Other thoughts that come immediately to mind: Owner's manual comes free with the car. Shop manual, if you want to do your own tune-ups and maintenance, costs extra. Some powder manufacturers provide limited load data on the side of the powder bottle. There is a lot more than just load recipes in the manuals. Compiling the load data for easy reading is worth a few bucks. If you don't want to pay Speer or Alliant for load data using their bullets or powder, hire your own ballistics lab and run your own tests. Or buy Lyman's manual (I don't believe they make any components, but only the equipment to load with). These guys are not hawking their own products so much as providing a service in their manuals which we find EXTREMELY valuable. It is quite common to use load data produced by Speer to load (similar) Sierra bullets, Hornady bullets, Berry's bullets, home-cast bullets. You are not locked in to the book publisher's components just because you use his recipes (with the exception of the gunpowder) Yes, I get load data from their web sites for free and appreciate it. Frankly, I don't think they make any money on the manuals and if they promote sale of their components, that's cool. The manuals keep me safe, and that is WELL WORTH the cover price. Lost Sheep | |||
|
| One of Us |
I would be surprised to find that manuals were a profit center for any of the manufacturers. Truly appreciate data that includes pressures. Lastly, the bottom feeders, like Load Data, I don't appreciate. Support the outfits that are actually investing in the components and info utilizing them. | |||
|
| one of us |
Outdated ones are almost free at yard sales, and Lee Loaders come with little data sheets... TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
|
One of Us |
Some people think Obamacare is going to mean "free health care". They are wrong. Nothing is free. If we all demand that bullet and powder manufacturers "give" us their data, which takes considerable time and hours to compile, then they will be forced to recoup the cost by other means and you will end up paying for it anyway. And chances are the quality of the manuals will go to chit as well. If you own a business and the cost of running it goes up then you must in turn raise the price of your services. It is a simple economical fact. I wonder how everyone who voted NO would feel about being forced to provide "free stuff" to everyone under the sun themselves?  I garantee they would find out real fast just how free it really is. China is currently raping the rest of the world of their intellectual property. It is criminal. Do I think reloading manuals should be free? Hell no! I believe that would be anthethetical to the principles of liberty. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
|
One of Us |
I think reloading manuals are a good value. I have a pile of them next to the bed and I spend more time looking at different calibers than acutally reloading. One of the few books that you will buy that you can keep using over and over again. Jim | |||
|
| one of us |
Jim, funny how things change. I've been a fan of Nosler manual since getting first one in the 70's and been they been good reading over the years. Now we come to Nosler # 7 with over 800 pages far cry from the first one with 234 pages. VFW | |||
|
| one of us |
Ditto Sam. I should have made it more clear & worded it better  that I think when you buy their other products, bullets or powder the reloading data should be included to enable you to use the product that you bought from said company. Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
|
| One of Us |
...and SAAMI makes the owner of a new cartridge pay out of their nose to get that cartridge SAAMI'ed. In fact it's so high of a cost that some major company has to submit the cartridge to them, that plus it has to be someone that is a member to do so. There are some companies that don't belong to SAAMI and I believe Sierra is one of them. Don't quote me on that. So to say they are a voluntary group doesn't mean a lot, certainly doesn't mean their information is free, someone had to pay for it to be listed or should I say more correctly SAAMI tested and approved. | |||
|
| Moderator |
Its IP. It has value to you. The lawyers also must be fed. But don't worry. The OWS crowd feels about the same about all your property as well. You can try to rationalize it all you like, but the IP doesn't belong to you. Put together your own manual and put your name on it. Then try to keep your house from the people and survivors that misuse the data. Its not YOUR PROPERTY. And like all complex tools, it requires training to use. Like a welder or lathe. If you aren't trained for likely more than the cost of the tool then you would be a menace Feel free to give away your property. But don't OWS demand that the owner of the property give it to you. Of course medical, educational, and housing expenses should " be free" right? Where do you draw the line at stealing from someone else? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
I had to think about it for a while. There are so many different words that "IP" and "OWS" could represent. Is it "Intellectual Property"? Is it "Occupy Wall Street" I try to remember whenever I use an acronym, shorhand terms or abbreviations that are the lease bit obscure to spell out the term the first time the the short version is used. Thanks for reading. Lost Sheep | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Should we hav to pay for reloading manuals
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia