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I JUST GOT MY 8MM/06 Ackley back and fire formed some cases with bullets and some with 12 grs of bullseye, some Kleenex to hold the powder in place then some cornmeal to the top and then a small gob of was, fireformed beautifully..The problem is the case after resizing were very tight in my chamber, so I filed off some of the top of the bullet seater until they chambered snug... They worked fine, but didn't I set the shoulder back and create some head space..I have done this with belted rounds and its not a problem as they headspace on the belt in such cases, but the 8mm/06 Ackley is on a 30-06 case that headspaces on the shoulder... Im in need of some advise from the experts on this, knowing I can shoot them as is but that must have some effect on case life, right?  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | ||
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Filed off the bullet seater to make them chamber snug? How can that work? And after resizing, the brass is still very tight? But they chamber like you want? You well know, that is no problem. Please re-write what you think the problem really is. | |||
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DPCD. It allowed the case to go deeper into the die, and therefore it resized the fireformed case more, and easily chambered in the gun, correct?? It worked but im not sure if firing it will set the shoulder back forward and Id be overworking the brass....I recall you suggested filing off the die itself, but die or shell holder, is the same effect, correct..If I doing something wrong please explain why and what steps I should take to fix it..It seems to me the dies don't correspond to the chamber?? My mistake shell holder not bullet seater, sorry about that..Its feeding properly now, but its a band aid and not a cure I fear.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I too am confused with your post and 2ND answer. If your case head spaces on the shoulder and your chamber is a little tight, you file off a little of the bottom of the sizing die. This will allow the die to move the case shoulder back and chamber properly. Your case life should not be affected. Gulf of Tonkin Yacht Club NRA Endowment Member President NM MILSURPS | |||
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My confusion comes from the fact that these cases were fireformed in the gun in question, but I had to file off the shell holder a good deal to get the case to resiize enough to fit the rifles chamber..A fireformed case should fit the chamber perfectly, these did not..So my thinking is the case will blow forward when fired and "refireform" the case again, thus over working the brass to beat hell.. I thought I had a handle on it when I filed off a enough metal from the shell holder that the case went easily into the chamber, but a well known guildl member said no, all I did was make headspace in the gun with that oversized case? That's when things got confusing.. As to filing the die, its much cheaper to file the shell holder to do the same thing,and if you go to far a shell holder is $8.00 a die in this case is over $200 if you can even find one Therefore it seems I may need another resizing die as I must have a minimum chamber much like a benchrest gun....My goal is to neck size cases and resizeing is setting he shoulder back and that makes for excess headspace.. Is that more clear, I don't know how to put it any other way. Ive been loading for 70 plus years, and this one threw me for a loop, and I needed some answers! Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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You are doing exactly the right thing by filing the shell holder and not the die. Keep the die original then if you load for another rifle at least with the die and a new shell holder you are back at 'base'. I'm surprised at your fire forming load though. Usually if using fast pistol/shotgun powder you would either just use a seated bullet or tissue as a wad over the powder and some cornmeal with wax to hold in the case and no bullet, not the whole lot together. You do not need wadding to hold the powder with a bullet as fast powder lights up no problem. Usually seating the bullet to touch the rifling to give a snug chambering to minimise headspace will give the pressure to fire form the case. What is the bolt lift like after your fire forming? If pressure is moderate, as it should be for fire forming, the case should extract easily and then fit back the chamber easily before any resizing. If this is true but then the case won't fit the chamber after resizing then I suggest something is happening with the neck during the resizing process. Maybe the drag of the sizing plug is pulling the neck/shoulder forward or the bullet seating is upsetting the neck? | |||
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i believe this is a dies to chamber issue, not headpsace, per se. short answer, the dies are "Wrong" for the rifle, but there's work arounds opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Going to assume Ray's rifle will rechamber its fireformed empties before a sizing attempt. (?) If correct, suspect the rifle is just demonstrating that partial sizing is not neck sizing. Own/owned a number of rifles that would rechamber on an empty case from that rifle, yet fail to chamber a partial-sized case. Two such have very minimal chambers (in whatever dimension) such that I have to FL-size every time. Sold one, but my .375 GG chamber has this "quality". Thought I might have to grind a shell-holder for that rifle, but guess not. Believe it or not, if I partial size brand new unfired Hornady .375 R cases some will barely chamber in this rifle. Before sizing, all chamber easily. Insufficient partial-sizing can make brass larger in some critical dimension than it was prior to sizing. If I backed off all my FL dies just enough might be able to simulate this "problem" with a few more rifles. So....using a FL-die to "neck-size" may or may not work. Shaving a shell-holder is less $ than a custom small base die. | |||
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Pitching in the dark here like everyone else but I can tell you Ray, that fire forming while easy to type consistently occasionally does not work out that way. Example: Firing pin drives the case forward and the powder charge locks the neck, shoulder, forward part of the body down and the rear stretches back to the bolt. Now you have a case which is longer than it used to be and sometimes larger near the unsupported head. Run that case back into a minimum die and you will see "tightness" as you describe. You may also see the neck grow longer because that is the easiest place for the brass to go. All of that you know but what is throwing you a loop is your presumption that the fire forming should create a "perfect" case. Only if it works perfectly. I suspect it did not do that for some reason. On the case life issue, yup it will be less but neither one of us can tell if that is significant until you load and shoot one 15 times. I believe your filing the Shell holder is the right thing to do if done until the case "just" fits on bolt drop. If you've gone too far, start on another $6 shell holder. Good luck. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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I think were getting somewhere now, all the last few posts are edging on the same problem, and bottom line is I probably should send the die and three fired cases to Dennis Olson and have him soften the die, fix it, reharden it and that should solve the problem and make the gun normal. The shell holder is very thin and holding up so far, but I vision a stuck case sooner or later when I pull the edge off the shell holder.. Dennis fixed a die for me in the past for a off beat European caliber and it worked..Does this fix make since? That said I will fire some of the rounds I've got loaded and see what happens, they do close "lightly snug" on the bolt drop, so that's good..then I will have some cases to mic and try, go with a chamber cast and should know whats going on, which will probably verify whats been posted so far by all. Lots of great advise on this thread, and appreciated, I don't know where else on the internet I could have gotten the information I needed... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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before I got all worked up about this I would load and fire form the cases with a 55-K load. when you get an Ackley case formed you can just neck size them for 3-4 loads no problem. yep neck size. break out your 29$ 325 wsm die set. | |||
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All went well after I resized the firreformed cases using the trimmed to the max shell holder, but then I crashed and burned, I stuck a case and pulled the rim off the oh so thin shell holder!! I hope the neighbors were wearing ear protection... So now it seems I need to trim another shell holder about half as much as the first one then cut the remainder needed off the resizing die?? I did get get 90 functioning loaded rounds however... A question: We have been concerned about the shoulder, but I beginning to wonder if the problem is at the base of the case, maybe I need a chamber cast before anything else. I was told to wrap the case body in a cigerette paper as they are exactly a thousands, and resize the case and see what happens?? Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Redding makes competition shell holder sets specifically for this purpose... 5 holder set in increments of .002, in a case. Probably be able to find a used set for $30-$40 Phil | |||
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My understanding is the Redding kits allow you to "decrease headspace" in 0.002" increments. Ie., they are incrementally thicker than standard shellholders (0.125"). Unless I'm reading their product lit wrong??? Sounds like Ray has this figured out, tho, and is probably wise to have the die adjusted. Don't imagine a small base 8mm AI sizer would be inexpensive. | |||
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I believe your barrel fitter, made the headspace too tight; easy to do on AI cartridges because you make them tight in order to avoid separated cases. He should have matched the chamber to the die; that is how I fit all wildcats. That way, the owner knows it will work as a system. This ain't an off the shelf type thing. Plenty of room for "error". As for trimming shell holders; I NEVER do that; I face the die off in the lathe and then that die is now dedicated to THAT rifle. If that was what is needed. | |||
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Here's my take on what's happening. 1. Rifle has been chambered with a reamer of unknown dimensions. 2. Cases have been correctly fireformed in that chamber. 3. At this point the cases will extract and chamber again fine, yes? 4. Cases get full length sized in size die of different unknown dimensions. 5. Cases no longer chamber in rifle, yes? I see this as the rifle chamber having a shorter base-to-shoulder (headspace) length than the die, while the chamber also has a slightly enlarged body diameter. The die, on the other hand, has a longer base-to-shoulder length but a tighter body diameter. As the case is resized, the body gets squeezed down in diameter enough that it causes the length to increase inside the too-long-headspace die. As a result, resized cases will not chamber. So, Ray, your plan of sending fired cases and the dies off to have them worked over is exactly correct, IMHO. -- DPCD posted as I was typing this. His take is the same, just ends up with lengthening the chamber instead of shortening the die. And yes, for custom chambers it's always best to get your brass and dies first!! | |||
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Steve is right as usual. Best solution is for the maker to match the chamber to the die, the first time around. The new owner should not have to re-invent the process. | |||
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That is what Ive suspected all along, the problem is today nobody will make a custom set of dies and I had to buy a set of used dies on the internet and am greatful for that..The old RCBS is no more.. At this point I have things worked out fairly well in that I fireform, then run the case thru my dies in my RCBS A2 press, not my old Hollywood press and I gained a "tiny tad"???, and the rifle is taking the cartridge, a little snug but OK, Its just a micro spot off proper, and I like a bullet to slop in the chamber (its a hunter thingie")...most would accept it as is,but a little snug on a mountain or in the thick stuff is clumsy and slow, so I will send the gun, dies, and cases to someone who can match everything up together... In the meantime I can't find any good load data on the 160 gr. TTSX BT bullet with a easy measuring powder like RL-19 or 22, H414..for either 8mm-06 or 8mm/06 Ackley..If I can get 8mm/06 loads for that 160 I can add 5% for the Ackley and go from there..I think Im going to really like this gun once I get everything worked out, if not I'll rebore it to a 9.3x62 take a needed nap...I can if needed fly by the seat of my pants and find a proper TTSX 160 gr. load, and Ive got 85 Nosler 200 gr. ready for elk. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I would be very careful about trimming the shell holder as that also increases headspace. That being said, on extrevely sharp sholdered cases like the Ackley's the process of sizing creates a sizable radial load at the base of the shoulder that can cause some local expansion the case at the intersection of the straight portion of the case and the outer end of the shoulder. I have found on my 280 Ackley I must put more lubricant on case than usual and insure the inside of the neck is lubricated to avoid issues. | |||
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I had same issue with 6.5 X 284 dies were slightly different than chamber reamer. Use candle smoke or black felt pen on case that is dificult to chamber and see where it is large in the chamber. Then do the same with your dies and see if you can get case to fit chamber. Custom dies are so spendy now and few will do the work. kk alaska | |||
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Which is why you should do it the other way round; get dies, make brass, and then get a reamer ground to work with your brass. Chamber reamers are cheaper than custom dies. | |||
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I think I'll jump in. This poster mentioned something I was going to say. Marker pen the entire case and carefully chamber. See where it's rubbing/touching. Same with fired case in the sizing die. Okay when a case is still snug after sizing one of the first things I do is cam over the press. If this doesn't do it then I start looking for the problem such as described by the marker penning. Thinning the shell holder is a foolish thing to do and you just found out one reason why. You know Redding sells different thickness shell holders. You also must have one hell of a good file to file either a shell holder or die!!!!! I agree your fir form loads should have been much hotter then what you did. This is where being a cast bullet shooter comes in handy using cast bullets to fire form rather then waste expensive jacketed bullets. | |||
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I have already done the case marking. I don't use bullets to fireform as a rule, I use 12 grs. of bullseye, a tad of Kleenex to hold the powder in place, fill with cornmeal and top that off with wax..I would rather file off a shell holder than a die, in most cases it works just fine, its just that this one was a bit too much, but I had several #3s so no biggie..but with this gun I need to take some off the die and some off the shell holder. but since these used old RCBS dies don't match the chamber reamer, I need to have the dies softened and rechambered to fit the rifle chamber, then re-hardened, as that's a better option..Ive worked with it and do have it wherein I changed brass make, and went to my RCBS A2 press and fully resized the fireformed cases and they chamber but its a snug fit, just a bit too snug for a hunting rifle, and right for a bench gun! I need a modicum of slop in a hunting rifle! Ive got a handle on this thing, its just a matter of time to get it fixed. thanks for the advise. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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DPCD, That is exactly what I did, but have you ever tried to find a set of 8mm/06 dies these days, RCBS no longer makes them, Redding refused to make them, nobody! I got lucky and found a set on the internet for little of nothing, but the gun was done by that time, and all hell broke lose!  My salvation is Dennis Olson can soften the dies, fix them and reharden them, he has done that before for me with some old European calibers that didn't meet specs..and they always worked like a charm, and the cost was very little..I was trying to fix it without having to spend any more money on the gun, but that ain't gonna happen..Its useable now since I changed brass and reloading press but a bit too snug for a hunting rifle that needs a little slop to rechamber a round in a hurry. The pains of wildcatting I had forgotten, no more this one is my wildcatting swan song!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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What the experts said. Chamber appears to be tighter then the die dimensions. Last rifle I had like that I set my dies and press to where it would bottom out with a real tight FL squeeze. Happily that was enough to get the headspace right and allow them to chamber. If not, the best fix is to get the chamber right. The problem with altering shell holders is the danger of it getting used for the wrong caliber. Just curious Ray, what made you decide to go AI with this one? AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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That's sort of right... But Measuring from the top of the shell holder where the die and shell holder meet on closing, to the top inside of the shell holder where the base of the brass contacts. Standard holder being .130 and the +.010 being .140 the 5 competition shell holders are and marked in increments of .002 or +.002, +.004, +.006, +.008, +.010 adding the standard shell holder gives you the sixth shell holder of the set. Each of these in order will increase the headspace by .002 But once you have the set, and if you then take a standard sizing die, or body die and file or grind .010 off the bottom. Then it works in reverse. Using that ground die and the +.010 shell holder gives you a standard length case and working down in .002 increments when you get to the standard shell holder it will give you a case headspaced .010 shorter than standard. Of course you can adjust that further by grinding more or less than .010 off the die,. Just using 2" as a standard headspace length. Standard die with competition shell holder set. Increasing headspace 1.870 + .130 +.000 = 2.000 1.870 + .132 +.002 = 2.002 1.870 + .134 +.004 = 2.004 1.870 + .136 +.006 = 2.006 1.870 + .138 +.008 = 2.008 1.870 + .140 +.010 = 2.010 Standard die with .010 ground off die with competition shell holder set. Decreasing headspace 1.860 + .140 +.010 = 2.000 1.860 + .138 +.008 = 1.998 1.860 + .136 +.006 = 1.996 1.860 + .134 +.004 = 1.994 1.860 + .132 +.002 = 1.992 1.860 + .130 +.000 = 1.990 So by grinding .010 off the die and using the competition shell holder set allows you to headspace anywhere from +.010 to -.010 or 10 steps in increments of .002 Phil | |||
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What a complicated way to fireform brass. I have no idea how many crazy wildcats we have made, each requires new brass to be fireformed for them. We use bullets, seated far out to engage the rifling, and use practically any pistol or shotgun powders for a reduced load. Worked every time. | |||
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Has nothing to do with fire forming, but rather bumping a shoulder beyond what the sizing die will do. Might not even be the shoulder that is causing the problem. Might be a ratty finish on the chamber due to over used reamer. Me I've always just gave a drawing to who I was having make the reamers, and had them get ahold of tech at Redding. Together they go over the drawing and make any changes they felt necessary. Dave makes the reamers and sends them to Redding and they make the dies. Then the last couple times anyway, send all off to the smith. My Reamers, My dies, and all are new. No surprises, unless the smith screws up! Phil | |||
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In case anyone is wondering, chambering reamers are not the same as a FL die reamer...so you have to buy two reamers. In Ray's case, that combination of die and chamber was not coordinated, resulting in a die that is too large for the chamber. Easiest solution is to make the chamber bigger. Much harder way is to make the die smaller. His problem is OD, not length (headspace). I think. | |||
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That's, what I'm thinking. Little Clover Buffing and polishing paste on polishing disc, or Scotch Brite and work it a little. Phil | |||
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Maybe a chamber cast on the rifle & another cast made in the sizing die. Comparing the two casting might reveal where the problem is. Sounds to me the die is at fault here. | |||
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I sent the dies and three fired cases to Dennis Olson, done deal and at very little cost..He has done this for me a number of times,,sofens the die, cuts a matching chamber and rehardens, Same as RCBS used to do.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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This^^^^ is EXACTLY right IMHO. Zeke | |||
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Oh the joy of wildcatting. Send three pieces of shot brass to Wilson, Forester, Whidden or Hornady they will make you dies that will fit. Throw that modified seater in the trash. | |||
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Which will cost several times more than altering the chamber. | |||
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opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I thought the old RCBS custom shop became Huntington Die Specialties. Seems to be on the web. ?? Happy Holidays. | |||
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Nope......RCBS did the custom work for Huntingtons........no more. Thank the "Vista Outdoors" conglomerate and hedge fund people for this decision. | |||
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I don't have a die set for any of my Ackley type rifles. I never thought it would be this dramatic to fire form a case, neck size it for 10 loadings then toss it. the long straight square cylinders just don't go anywhere once they are fit to the chamber. | |||
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