In general, are the pressures / loads your running with the Barnes TSX much different than those your using for your same weight conventional bullets.

This is a very general question being directed to the more experienced handloaders.

I am curious if in general, due to the groove configuration, you are finding that the TSX line allows you to run your loads fairly close to conventional bullet design charge weights of the same weight, or...that you are finding yourself loading a grain or so less...or a grain or so more etc., in general.

I am just looking for general characteristics by way of comparison between conventional bullet designs and the TSX.

The TSX has been around long enough, that I thought there might be some interesing observations conparitively speaking.

Of course, this doesn't have anything to do with a particular loading recommendation in any general sense at all, but I thought it would be interesting to here some of your views regarding pressure and same weight v.s. conventional same weight pressure observations.

Paul

I cannot comment on your load question as I have not been loading long enough to have loaded bullets other than TSXs in a given cartridge. I had shot some in factory loads, been very pleased with the result, and decided to use them when I started handloading.

I can observe, however, that I have seen a dramatic difference in the point of impact with the TSXs and all Barnes bullets (except their varmint bullets, which I have not shot) compared to conventionally constructed bullets. Usually 3-4" at 100 yards.

LWD

I agree, the point of impact with Barnes bullets is significantly different than with other bullets.

Thus far, I've found loads with Barnes TSXs to end up being the same as with other brands of bullets of the same weight. Barnes XLC bullets, in the cartridges in which I've tried them, can be loaded with a little heavier charges of powder than with other brands of bullets of the same weight.

Paul I would suggest you pay very close attention when loading Barnes bullets.I have loaded Barnes bullets for several years now in quite a few different calibres and I have found some significant differences compared to conventional bullets. The original X bullet is longer than a conventional bullet of the same weight. Therefor the bearing surface and resistance in the bore will be increased and the maximum load for a barnes bullet will be several grains less than a conventional bullet. The XLC bullets are coated to reduce the bore resistance and the max load will likely be a couple grains more than the plain X bullet. I would suggest this is connected to how smooth and clean your bore is. I found that as few as 20 rounds of the original X bullets would start to foul a barrel and increase pressures (and velocity). The new TSX bullets significantly reduced the copper fouling in the rifles I have used them in. The max powder charge was also increased a couple grains likely due to the decreased surface area touching the bore (less resistance). Do NOT try to extrapolate loads for any Barnes X bullets from other loading manuals. Go buy a Barnes manual. They are supposed to have a new # 4 manual out in the fall of 2007 that will include their new bullets. I hope this helps

i have certainly noticed higher pressures than SOME conventional bullets.

the X and XLCs both are higher pressure than the convetionals, to get the same bullet weight to the same vel.

this is one of those "if you disagree with me, then call barnes and ask when they are making the TSX"

the TSX was brought out to reduce pressure.. Myself, as long as i put the bullet .07 or more of the lands, have NEVER seen a rifle that won't eventually shoot barnes good enough.. most people who say they don't shoot simply aren't RTFM

the TSX is a SOMETIMES a great bullet, all the way up, in weights, until there is a STUPID huge flat (it's no longer a groove) on the rear of the shank.

for example, on 500gr .458 and .475 bullets, this is directionally .400 or LONGER..

this ammounts to like 50% of a conventional bullets bearing surface.. which, coupled with the TSX bullet being much longer, leads to reduced case capacity and more pressure than the smaller/lighter versions of the same bullet.

this can get a reloader into trouble QUICKLY.


anyway, yes, the larger TSXs certainly make pressure too fast and I, myself, have experienced pressure excursions with the .458 and .475 bullets... not anything huge, just flattened primers.... but the 3 shots before would be fine.... and every OAL is the same and every charge is weighed....


barnes is VERY vague in giving out load data for the big bores on the TSX and are working on a tungsten weighted version, to get the length down.. they are certainly aware of the problems

jeffe

quote:

In general, are the pressures / loads your running with the Barnes TSX much different than those your using for your same weight conventional bullets.

Yes, the TSX's seem to be operating at lower pressures with the same loads used with conventional bullets. Perhaps they offer less resistance to initial engraving?

I have NOT used enough of the older "X" bullets to have a basis for comparing them with the TSX type.

My general experience with several calibers is that you'll get the same velocity with the TSX and 1 grain less powder than with a Nosler or Sierra. This is only a generalization, but seems to be a fairly consistent pattern.

As I understand it, TSX bullets are undersized to avoid the high pressures that X bullets were known for, but the other side of the coin is that you are likely to experience more throat erosion with an undersized bullet.

Seriously..Where did you hear this info?

Throat erosion can be reduced by avoiding rapid successive firing from the bench. Continue shooting with a hot barrel is the biggest culprit and is under the control of the shooter. The hotter the barrel the easier the erosion process. Try to avoid over-bore cartridges that operate at high pressure if you can - some calibers are notoriously bad on barrels. Invariably shooters go for the hottest loads in over-bore cartridges to get max velocity, meaning they seek out cartridges with bigger case volume in a particular bore size (e.g. 7x57 vs 7x64 vs 7 mm Rem Mag vs 7 mm STW). Clearly flame temperatures will be lower with the 7x57 and likewise for a .308 Win vs the .30-378 Wby.

Warrior

Thanks guys.

The TSX is a interesting bullet design.

I have only worked with the South African version in 30 cal., (can't think of the company name at the moment) and the 62 gr. TSX in the .223 WSSM in a AR platform. I was interested to hear your opinions.
I am going to check out the 70 gr. TSX tomorrow, in a 1/7 twist 22-250 A.I. bolt gun.
Your sure right about differing points of impact and they do seem to handle similar std. bullet same weight similar loadings rather well, in what I have tested so far.. I was surprised but glad to see that in general....however, I don't assume that they will...to easy to get a surprise.

thanks for the opinions

Paul

quote:

Originally posted by Rancho Loco:
Seriously..Where did you hear this info?

Here is a reference:

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/faqbarrelwear.html

"The advantage of this is that with HV/FN bullets, the pressure curve peaks further down the bore and the initial temperature spike is distributed over almost three times the surface area of barrel, compared to smooth and grooved bullets. The throat runs cooler and lasts longer."

It's known as the area under the curve and can just as well be moved by using a different gunpowder.

This is my opinion only, but if you (500 grains) believe this advertizing hype, then by all means do not buy Barnes bullets. There ya go, problem solved. Obviously the GS are the 'magic' bullets and Barnes are crap. Now we all know better.

I would take 500 Grains thoughts on this with at least one grain of salt, as He has NO Love of Barnes bullets.

quote:

TSX bullets are undersized to avoid the high pressures

500 Grains,

Is this true for all bullets across the board, being a design parameter? Or perhaps just a particular batch in a given caliber? Or could it be that the observation stems from an oversize bore?

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
As I understand it, TSX bullets are undersized to avoid the high pressures that X bullets were known for, but the other side of the coin is that you are likely to experience more throat erosion with an undersized bullet.

I have loaded TSXs for 2 yrs now and have not found a single one undersized. I do have some 30 cal 168s that are slightly oversized.

I get the same speed with 1 grain less powder (Somchem's S 355) with my .308 win using 150- and 168 grain TSX compared to Sierra Game King and Hornady Interbond. It can and will differ in other rifles and powders.

Now I'm going to have to go out to my shop and mic my TSX bullets. ( Well, maybe I'll wait to daylight tomorrow to go check). I know that the original TSX design was first marketed in Lazzaroni's proprietary line of cartridges. They were also coated with the same coating as the XLCs, but extra layers of it, and they were intentionally made undersized upon Lazz's specifications.

I was under the understanding that the TSX that we buy today, lacks the coating (which did provide some thinkness) and were the same diameter as the original X & everybody elses conventional bullets.

I have several .30 and .338 calibers TSX loaded for testing, but haven't had a chance to try them yet. I've shot the standard X for years with mediocre accuracy, but outstanding terminal performance on big game like elk and moose. I tried some XLCs a few years back: less fouling, easier cleaning and higher velocities in both the '06 (150 at 3000 out of a 22") and .300 Win. (3200 for 180s out of a 26"). However, still ho-hum accuracy.

My understanding is that the X and the XLC are a thing of the past. I'm looking forward to something better than both in the TSX.

quote:

Originally posted by PaulP:
In general, are the pressures / loads your running with the Barnes TSX much different than those your using for your same weight conventional bullets.
...
I am curious if in general, due to the groove configuration, you are finding that the TSX line allows you to run your loads fairly close to conventional bullet design charge weights of the same weight, or...that you are finding yourself loading a grain or so less...or a grain or so more etc., in general.

I am just looking for general characteristics by way of comparison between conventional bullet designs and the TSX.
Paul

Paul,

I have found it possible and safe to load TSX very close to max book values - they certainly seem less touchy than the original Barnes X do.

However, I have a max load with a 168 grs TSX in a .300 Win Mag, which gives me expanded primer pockets when shot in hot weather. Since the load produces such good accuracy, I have decided to try different brass to see if that might help a bit. So I guess, every rifle still differs with respect to how much pressure it will safely digest.

- mike

Mike

I don't have much data for what I am using but, with what I have developed, the TSX has been very accurate.
I tested the 70 gr. TSX in my 22-250 A.I. (7 twist) and it's shooting sub half with a so so barrel running 38.6 of H4350, Federal 215M primer and Winchester brass.

My 223 WSSM in a Olympic Arms AR, is shooting sub half with the 62 gr. TSX.

All but no copper fouling in either gun, so I am pretty pleased.

I also found it is easy in getting the loads working to get so impressively large groups too, till I found what worked.

Since there's not a heck of a lot of data for the combinations I am using, I wondered about the characteristics of the bullets but, so far no problems at all.

regards

Paul

I've used Barnes Xs and TSXs in .338, .375 and .416 ... and they have performed wonderfully well.

I do not tend to push for max loads as monometal bullets give superb penetration. I did find it easy to push the 300 gr TSX from the .375 H&H at 2600 fps and 350 gr Barnes X at 2700 fps from a .416 Rigby. They do not appear to be max loads ... but they worked just fine on game, thank you!

Dave,

quote:

It's known as the area under the curve and can just as well be moved by using a different gunpowder.

This is true, but can you move it by using a smooth sided or grooved bullet? They all peak at very similar times with those and the only bullet type that will move that pressure peak down the barrel, is a drive band bullet.

Tests done by Somchem Ballistic Proof Lab showed that, using the same cases, primers and powder, our drive band bullets gave pressure peaks further down the bore than any other type of bullet construction. That is why we state on our website: "The advantage of this is that with HV/FN bullets, the pressure curve peaks further down the bore and the initial temperature spike is distributed over almost three times the surface area of barrel, compared to smooth and grooved bullets. The throat runs cooler and lasts longer."

I do not think that results obtained in a world class lab would qualify as Hype: "A hyperbole, largely synonymous with exaggeration and overstatement, is a figure of speech in which statements are exaggerated or extravagant. It may be used due to strong feelings or is used to create a strong impression and is not meant to be taken literally. It gives greater emphasis. It is often used in poetry and is a literary device."

Imagine extending the life of your favourite rifle by using drive band bullets and choosing your powder wisely.

Here are some more facts.

Gerard,

I use Woodleigh's because I can always get them, but I'd love to try your projectiles in my smallbores (375 and 366 especially). Could you chase up an Australian distributor. We shoot a loy here, even though there are only 20million of us, it should be worth your while,

Best wishes,

mike

quote:

As I understand it, TSX bullets are undersized to avoid the high pressures that X bullets were known for, but the other side of the coin is that you are likely to experience more throat erosion with an undersized bullet.

Here is a reply from Barnes:

Hi Warren

A few of the very large calibers are undersized .001" but the common calibers are all right on. It has nothing to do with throat erosion. It is done to help ease the wear and pressures on the old double rifles typically
used in Africa and Europe.

We make the all the X Style bullets of pure copper so that we can control bullet expansion. Gilding metals that have zinc mixed into them will have hard and soft spots that are more difficult to control expansion.

I can't get into the cavity changes for proprietary reasons. But it was done to aid expansion characteristics.

Ty

We Aim to please, reloading is a great hobby, enjoy it.

Ty Herring
Barnes Bullets
Customer Service Director
P.O. Box 215
American Fork
Utah 84003
Tel 801-756-4222
1-800-574-9200
Fax 801-756-4222