I have often read on various internet forums about people getting 2900+ fps out of 150g bullets using 22" barreled .308 Winchesters. I've worked with four different ones and I have never been able to get anywhere near 2900 fps using PUBLISHED load data. In fact the two I currently own start getting badly flattened primers and ejector marks well under 2800 fps. I've tried Varget and IMR 4064 - which are usually close to the top of the velocity curve in .308 Winchester reloading data.

I am not interested in hot rodding a .308 Winchester as I simply have larger rounds that pick up where it leaves off. However, 2730 to 2750 fps is lower than I figured I'd get since I always read about 2900+ fps. The chronograph has been verified using .22 LR ammo as well as being used side by side with others with the same ammo.

Here is a badly flattened primer at a "pedestrian" 2730 fps using IMR 4064 from a 22" barreled rifle. These are neck sized cases that are trimmed to the length of 2.005".

PROBABLY THE STATED VELOCITIES WERE OUT OF A 24 OR26" BARREL?
I get 2800to 2850 out of a 26" with varget

Hi
I get 2,890 using RE 15 at 47g with 150g Hornady BTSP from a 26" barrel. No pressure signs and long case life, up to 10 loads from the same cases (Lapua) so far and no signs of wear and still tight primer pockets. I get a little higher velocity from Varget for the same load but accuracy was not quite as good.
SF

I can just over 2900 out of Savage in .308 (24") 46.2 grns of IMR4064 under a 150 grain nosler balistic tip. Try R15, it does give me the highest velocities but not the best accuracy. Speer shows 49grn to be the max but not many others go over 47.

Try RL-15, Varget, and TAC powders. Whichever gives you the best accuracy is the one to go with. If you want more velocity, look at gettting a 30-06.

LD

Sounds like the velocities aren't too far out of line with what they should be then. I've just heard so many people claim far higher velocities with similar rifles. Of course, you can hear crazy things on the Internet every day. My 20" Savage 99 gets about 2720 fps with 150g bullets and my 22" Remington 788 averages around 2750. It also goes to show how much variation exists between two barrels. Ned's load is 0.3g less than the one in my 788, yet he is getting about 150 fps more with just a 2" longer barrel.

I am well aware that I will get more velocity out of a .30-06. I have two of them and I have no trouble pushing 150g bullets 3000 fps out of either one of them. I also have a .300 Winchester Magnum will make most 150g bullets act like a Speer TNT bullet. So it's not about wringing the last bit of velocity possible out of the cartridge, I just wanted to know what is reasonable to expect.

I get 2800fps in a 22" and 2900 in a 26" with several loads, and they aren't max.

Every rifle is diff. but you know that. You may have a rough bore, slightly oversize chamber, longer thoat, any number of things. I also used to get pretty much max. vel. & great accuracy w/ RL15 or VV150, they are a tiny bit slower & this may get you closer to 2800fps in your 22" bbl. 2900fps can be had in a 26" bbl., I've done it easily using RL15. $" of bbl. is roughly -100fps getting you right around 2775-2800fps.

I have the same deal. In my 20" barrelled Belgian BLR, I get about 2625 max with 150 gr Hornady FB Interlocks before pressure signs appear.
Regards,
Woody

quote:

I have often read on various internet forums about people getting 2900+ fps out of 150g bullets using 22" barreled .308 Winchesters.

These same folks have some interesting bridges for sale as well......it's all BS IMO.

First, primers come in lots and the cups in some are stiffer than the cups in others. If you said a 150-gr. 308 load was safe at 3,100 because it didn't flatten primers, people would stand in line to tell you different. So 1) don't judge pressure by primer appearance, and 2) try some different brands of primers.

Second, weigh brass from different makers and use the lightest one. Light brass has more capacity and thus more potential for velocity. Most Palma shooters use Winchester because they need their bullets to remain supersonic beyond 1,000 yards. You may not make 2,900 fps but just by swapping primers and brass, you should be able to beat 2,750 easily.

Third, you've only hit the tip of the tip of the iceberg with powders. RL-15 and Varget are my first choices with 150-gr. bullets. I use 4064 for 180's.


Okie John

Looking at LoadTech and a flat based 150 with a 22" barrel. They only show one powder reaching 2900 that is Varget. The norm is 2750-2850. At a calculated 62,000.

With RL15 in a 22" bbl 165's go 2,750 and 150's 2,850. It's a simple feat...

Well, I loaded up 47grs. 4064 with a 150 Sierra SBT using Speer load data #11, and they get 2882fps using a Winchester 22" bbl, my Remington is a 24", I must be getting around 2922fps. I'm using the same components as Speer, cept for cases, theirs WW, mine Rem. Bullets look to be very identical, at least their BT looks like a Sierra I'm using. BTW, no signs of high pressure on my brass. And Sierras data has a max of 45.5grs 4064 coming out of a 26"(Savage) tube getting 2900fps. Jay

quote:

I must be getting around 2922fps.

2,922... pretty exact. You can't "know" what you're getting witout a chronograph.

Brad, I knew I'd hear from someone when I typed that out, I'm just figuring if Speer is getting 2882 from a factory 22" Win. barrel, my factory 24" Rem. barrel must be "around" 2922, give or take, you know. Jay

Jay, I do understand but you can't extrapolate from a manual... every barrel is a law unto itself. You may be getting 2,925 or even 2,950 but you might be getting 2,850. In this day of affordable and accurate chronographs I'd encourage you to save $100 for one... you're really missing out on the best and most enlightening tool a handloader can own.

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
Jay, I do understand but you can't extrapolate from a manual... every barrel is a law unto itself. You may be getting 2,925 or even 2,950 but you might be getting 2,850. In this day of affordable and accurate chronographs I'd encourage you to save $100 for one... you're really missing out on the best and most enlightening tool a handloader can own.

Brad, Understand totally what you're saying, but I'm not really concerned too much about velocity, especially since I've taken down(Instantly, through liver) a deer at 110 paces with a load that was later chronographed at 2300fps at the muzzle, telling me that impact velocity was 2100fps, give or take 15fps. My way of checking velocity is shooting groups at various distances, 100, then 200 and out to 300. Then see if my ballistics are in-line with my books ballistics tables.

It's the cheapskate's way of checking velocity, if I have a real concern or question a load I'll go over to my brother-in-laws to use his. Jay

quote:

Originally posted by okie john:
First, primers come in lots and the cups in some are stiffer than the cups in others. If you said a 150-gr. 308 load was safe at 3,100 because it didn't flatten primers, people would stand in line to tell you different. So 1) don't judge pressure by primer appearance, and 2) try some different brands of primers.

Good advice. I only put the pictures there to show the primers. If I go any higher than the stated load, I start getting difficult extraction and or brass ejector marks. I have worked up loads in Remington, Federal, and Winchester brass with similar results. For primers I have used CCI Large Rifle, Federal 210, and Federal 210m. That's all I have on hand right now.

It sounds like I may need to get a can of RL15 and see what happens.

Some of the velocities folks are getting are also like some of the sub .25 groups they're getting with stock rifles, BSA scopes, and factory ammo.

I'm not saying some don't get there but.........

I can only sight velocities from a 20" .308, factory fed 180's clock 2550, factory rem 180's 2600, handloads with 165's can be driven 2700, I did make the mistake of using some data from Handloader with VV N-550 and got 165's going 2850, but the primer's fell out of the brass on one load so consider 2700 a prudent max.

I would extrapolate and expect 150's to be doing 2800 and change, and for a 22" tube I'd add about 60-70 fps, so figure 150's @ 2900 from a 22" is possible, but would be a maximum load, and not attainable from all powders and in all 22" .308 barrels.

3050 fps with 150 gr and 22" .308 is repeatable, but the next primer is too easy to press in the pocket.
One use per piece of brass is not a good load.

The 308 Kimber Montana does over 2900 fps with 150 gr Ballistic Tips and RL 10. The same load with 150 Partitions is under 2900.

The pressures might be high but the cases extract easily and the primers while flat are not falling out. The rifle seems to like the load and shoots it very well. That bullet flies quite flat out to 200 yds.

Was talking to Rich Machholz while I was reading this thread, he told me getting 2900 fps with 150s is no problem, advised using Win. brass since it holds a bit more powder, though I've been using Rem. brass and CCI BR2 primers with 47grs. of 4064 and Varget with no pressure signs, and sub moa 3 shot groups. Hodgdon manual says 2937 from a 24" tube @50,300 CUP.

If I'm not mistaken, Hornady gets 2900 out of 47.1grs. RE15. Jay

Hey Buzz, I've had a good many 308Wins over the years and as I sit here thinking back, I don't believe I've ever wasted my time chronographing any of them.

My advice would be to stick with the IMR-4064 or Hodgdon's Varget for the 150gr bullets and Develop an accurate Load while watching for Pressure Indicators using CHE & PRE. (If you go to 165gr bullets, switch to H-380 Powder.) Once you find a Load you like, shoot it at the actual distances you intend to shoot at Game and create your own Drop Chart with that Load.

Then just go enjoy it. It will kill just fine and have plenty of Velocity regardless of what it is.
---

In the past I've mentioned a good many times that Chronographs can be "misleading".

One of our AR members, asdf, PMed me awhile ago about an article John Barsness had written concerning a 25% rise in Pressure created by swapping from a CCI Primer to a Winchester WLRM while keeping all other Cartridge components the same. The article indicated Mr. Barsness used a Piezo Pressure Testing device which was barreled for a 300WinMag.

So as to shorten the discussion, Mr. Barsness noted:
2920fps at 55,800PSI with CCI Primers
2991fps at 70,100PSI with WLRM Primers

So, if a person chooses to go by Velocity read from a Chronograph as a Pressure Indicator, it can be very misleading.

Best of luck to you.

quote:

My advice would be to stick with the IMR-4064 or Hodgdon's Varget for the 150gr bullets and Develop an accurate Load while watching for Pressure Indicators using CHE & PRE. (If you go to 165gr bullets, switch to H-380 Powder.) Once you find a Load you like, shoot it at the actual distances you intend to shoot at Game and create your own Drop Chart with that Load.

HC, I've tried H380 with 165 Hornadys, 50grs. to be exact, noted alot of compression when I seated the bullets. Almost afraid the bullets were going to pop out of the case.

That being said, RE15 is my powder of choice for 150-178gr. bullets for the 308. Though Varget and IMR4064 are ever so close to RE15, they'd be very good alternatives. Jay

quote:

Originally posted by Jay Gorski:
... Almost afraid the bullets were going to pop out of the case.

That being said, RE15 is my powder of choice for 150-178gr. bullets for the 308. ...

Hey Jay, I normally Benchmark a new 308Win with 168gr MatchKings and the Starting Loads of H380 shown in the Hodgdon Manual. Over the years, that Powder has provided some fine groups for me that have been difficult to approach with "Hunting Bullets" and other Powders.

Hodgdon lists 45gr<->48gr of H380 and 165gr bullets. Perhaps the H380 just runs out of room for more Powder before Pressure Indicators appear since you were stopped at 50gr. Seems like another good trait to me.

I tried RL-15 in my last 308Win and noticed "wider" CHE/PRE variations than I do with the IMR-4064 or Varget. To me that indicated the Powder was a bit unstable as it approached MAX. Tried (I think) 3 jugs of the RL-15 in the 308Win and RL-19, 22, and 25 in a 7mmRemMag and they all had those same "wide" CHE/PRE variations. Gave the RL Powders I had left to a couple of buddies. One loves them and the other guy couldn't get his 25-06 or 270Win to do real well with them.

Anyway, glad to hear the RL-15 is working well for you.

I don't have any 308's anymore. I never had a chrono but whenever I checked long range tragetory is seemed my 30-30 shot flatter than any 150/165/180 308 load I had. Perhaps a 125 gr bullet may be the ticket. There may have been more than one reason for the military dropping it. I tried a few magnums, some large bore and others small bore and settled for a 30-06. The -06 seems to do what the books says it should do and I don't want a bunch of recoil. I got a lifetimes worth of too much recoil from my 458 Win. I sold it long ago and have never missed it. Aside from the .458 the worst kicking gun I ever owned was a .308 Ithica LSA55, very light with a stock you could shave with, it was a brute. If your 308 does what you want, good, but for me it just came up short. Like I said above, if I were to reload for the 308 today I would have a 1-12 twist, tight bore .307 or less and try 110/125/130 gr bullets.

KD

quote:

Originally posted by K D:
...my 30-30 shot flatter than any 150/165/180 308 load I had. ...the worst kicking gun I ever owned was a .308 Ithica LSA55, very light with a stock you could shave with, it was a brute. ...

Hey KD, Any chance you were shooting Reduced Loads in the 308Win?

Don't remember anyone ever mentioning a "flatter trajectory" from a 30-30 when compared to a 308Win before. You sure about that?

Buzz:

I too wanted a .308 load that would run at 3000fps. I started with 130 grain bullets but quickly moved up to 150 grain bullets because I saw that the Hornaday Light Magnum 150 grain load bosted 3000fps. I quickly found that preasure was a problem with this quest. I am convinced Hornaday loads both a (propritary) compressed and or duplex load to achieve their claimed velosity.

Here is what I have done and I don't recomend this for a starting load. This load is 5.5 grains hotter than anything I have seen in any loading book. I am using LC 81 Match Brass 30% thicker than comercial factory brass. I am using Federal 215GM Magnum rifle primers ahead of 51.5 grains of Winchester 748 ball powder. They are seated into the rifling. I started out with Hornady 150 grain bonded bullets which I found did not hold together. I now am shooting Swift 150 grain Shiroccos. A great bullet. At 65*f they chronographed 3019 fps at 12 feet from the muzzle. They show signs of pressure but group .5 at 100 yards out of a 20" Model 7 Remington. I am working on other loads just to see if I can come up with one with a powder that is not so temperature sensitive.
Rustystud

ps. I am trying to work up a load with a 90 grain shirocco in necked down LC match brass currently. The pressures seem to be more extreme in the .243. I have tried H4831SC, Reloader 22, Reloader 19, Reloader 15, IMR 4350 loaded at max or above.

quote:

Originally posted by K D:
I don't have any 308's anymore. I never had a chrono but whenever I checked long range tragetory is seemed my 30-30 shot flatter than any 150/165/180 308 load I had. Perhaps a 125 gr bullet may be the ticket. There may have been more than one reason for the military dropping it. I tried a few magnums, some large bore and others small bore and settled for a 30-06. The -06 seems to do what the books says it should do and I don't want a bunch of recoil. I got a lifetimes worth of too much recoil from my 458 Win. I sold it long ago and have never missed it. Aside from the .458 the worst kicking gun I ever owned was a .308 Ithica LSA55, very light with a stock you could shave with, it was a brute. If your 308 does what you want, good, but for me it just came up short. Like I said above, if I were to reload for the 308 today I would have a 1-12 twist, tight bore .307 or less and try 110/125/130 gr bullets.

KD

I call serious BS

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Buzz, I've had a good many 308Wins over the years and as I sit here thinking back, I don't believe I've ever wasted my time chronographing any of them.

My advice would be to stick with the IMR-4064 or Hodgdon's Varget for the 150gr bullets and Develop an accurate Load while watching for Pressure Indicators using CHE & PRE. (If you go to 165gr bullets, switch to H-380 Powder.) Once you find a Load you like, shoot it at the actual distances you intend to shoot at Game and create your own Drop Chart with that Load.

Then just go enjoy it. It will kill just fine and have plenty of Velocity regardless of what it is.

great advise, trying to make a 308 shoot as fast as a 300 Mag can be a noble quest but my limited experience indicated that it was at most a fast 300 Savage, and the 300 Savage was a good enough performer for the military, they used it to develop the 308.

Years ago the military match people used the 308 with Musgrave actions and special .3065 dia bores with 1-14 twist for 147 gr military ammo. Does anyone know if they use the 308 at all anymore for matches and what tricks they use now??

The 308 is required for the Palma Match and such a rifle is useful in other matches. The loads used require a 155 gr bullet. Since 1000 yds is a distance in the match they use long slow twist barrels so that the bullet remains supersonic.

A pair of Palma Rifles on Barnard actions.

A single picture tells a story.
lovely gun.
by slow twist I assume something in the 14 - 16 range. at that twist, is the bullet stable at say 100 yards or does the bullet become accurate at a greater distance.

without giving up trade secrets what are the basics to 1000 yard accuracy for a .308

With Varget in my Browning A-Bolt with a 22 inch barrel, I get mid 2700 fps. 2795 is the Max with Varget. This shows no pressure signs but its Max in the manuals. Thats a 150 grain Nosler Partition. It kills game like lightning bolt.

quote:

Originally posted by K D:
...without giving up trade secrets what are the basics to 1000 yard accuracy for a .308

A Remington "V-Series" rifle with the Factory Trigger slightly adjusted, a Cartridge loaded with a MatchKing, a nice high power Scope, a solid Bench, a solid position, the ability to shoot between heartbeats and HUGE amounts of Trigger Time.

In my M77 with 22" bbl I am getting 2810fps using 150 gr Hornady BTSP, 44.0gr IMR4895, Win primer and Lapua Brass. It groups nicely at under 1" on a good day. No pressure signs. Works great on deer.

If I need to go faster, I'll use my 7mag or buy a .270!

My current .308 WCF load consists of 46 grains Re-15, Nosler 150 grain BT, Fed 210 and W-W brass. Velocity measured at 15 feet and not corrected to actual MV is 2785 fps from the 20" barrel of a Savage 10 FP-LE2. Accuracy is phenomenal. Forty-five grains of H-335 under the Sierra 150 grain Pro-Hunter gives virtually identical velocities.

Both could be increased a bit, but I see no need as these loads do all that is asked of them.

Posted 14 December 2005 02:48
Some of the velocities folks are getting are also like some of the sub .25 groups they're getting with stock rifles, BSA scopes

I'd say there is a truckload of Bull Shit in alot of the stories on all of the forums, its the internet.

Sad but true, its the Internet.

For interest sake I looked up some of my old data on the 308. With a 165 Hornady Boat tail with cannelure I was able to load 44 gr of H335 in a C-I-L case and a 8 1/2 C-I-L primer for a Max load. I used primer appearance and case head expansion to determine this was max. I worked up this load in military cases also and had to back off to 41 – 42 grains. I used a Krico (Anshutz) rifle with 1- 12 twist and out of a cold clean barrel it would shot dead on at 100 yards, every subsequent shot went 2-3 inches high for a 200 yard zero. Accuracy was very good and the rifle was a reliable as ………. It was not as flat shooting as the 270 I had sold, as it hit 300 yards the bullet was dropping at quite a rate. I have trouble hitting after 200 no matter what caliber I shoot, so life was good. I shot a 4 by 5 buck at 100 yards with it, the buck was looking right at me and I put a bullet right between his eyes. That buck died instantly and another spike buck I shot through the hams at 200 yards sat down and died within a minute. I could have hunted a lifetime with this combo but like this story it was pretty boring and predictable.

I am nearing retirement and am enjoying reloading again. I like all the improvements and new products. Having the internet allows me to research at a much faster rate than ever before. There is no point to this reply, just my memory of my favourite 308. I sold it for a couple hundred and moved on.