Hi folks, does anyone know if there is a relationship between the burn rate of powder and the felt recoil?
For instance at the moment I use a medium burning powder in my 416 Rigby. The manual also suggests that I can run a slow powder in my reloads. With out spending money to find out I thought I would ask the question of those more experienced first. Cheers Stu

I seriously doubt there's any "felt" relationship at all.

There is an insidental relationship if you will. The less gas the powder produces the less the recoil. With faster burning powder less of it can be used than the slower powders before it hits safe max. pressures. less powder ,less gas::: reduced recoil. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
There is an insidental relationship if you will. The less gas the powder produces the less the recoil. With faster burning powder less of it can be used than the slower powders before it hits safe max. pressures. less powder ,less gas::: reduced recoil. roger

Hit that on the head... The recoil calculations include the number of grains of powder for a reason... If the speed and weight of the bullet are the same in both loads, the one with fewer grains of powder will have slightly less recoil...

Ken....

CAN be signifigant..

for example, a 416 rigby at 2300 and a 416 taylor at 2300.. the taylor is going to be burn 30 to 40 grains LESS ... and recoil is signifigantly less.

i doubt most folks could tell 5% difference, but when you start approaching 20% it is REALLY noticable... if you can't tell, then, i promise, you are flinching...

more dramatically, the fewer grains burned TENDS to slow down the velocity of recoil, which is WORSE than the amount, most of the time

jeffe

quote:

more dramatically, the fewer grains burned TENDS to slow down the velocity of recoil, which is WORSE than the amount, most of the time

Very good point, sir.

LWD

A slow powder that burns more out in the bore needs to have some powder weight added to the bullet weight. It has the effect of shooting a heavier bullet, thus more recoil. It is not that great and if it bothers you, you are already shooting too big of a caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
A slow powder that burns more out in the bore needs to have some powder weight added to the bullet weight. It has the effect of shooting a heavier bullet, thus more recoil. It is not that great and if it bothers you, you are already shooting too big of a caliber.

You may be right, but that's where the muzzle brake comes in and redirects that gas flow. roger

Guys you make some interesting points.
According to the manual I have I would have to run 20 grains more of the slow powder to get the same velovity as the current medium burn powder. Whether it burns further down the chamber / barrel or not 24% more powder = more bang. Have I answered my own question???
Cheers Stu

quote:

Originally posted by stuey:
According to the manual I have I would have to run 20 grains more of the slow powder to get the same velovity as the current medium burn powder. Whether it burns further down the chamber / barrel or not 24% more powder = more bang. Have I answered my own question???
Cheers Stu

Nosler #5 manual page 473 for 416 Rigby 400 gr bullet:

IMR4350 / 92 gr /2427 fps
RL22 / 104 gr / 2515 fps

This looks like 12 more grains of the slow powder to get 88 fps greater velocity. Now it does have 100 gr RL22 for 2421 fps which is 8 more grains of powder for the same velocity.

The point is that you can get greater velocity at max load with a slower powder and that is the advantage of using one. Now the 250 more ft lbs energy at 300 yds or 6" less drop at 500 yards may not matter but slower powders have always yielded better accuracy for me. I do not have a 416 Rigby so your results might vary.

quote:

Originally posted by stuey:
Hi folks, does anyone know if there is a relationship between the burn rate of powder and the felt recoil?
For instance at the moment I use a medium burning powder in my 416 Rigby. The manual also suggests that I can run a slow powder in my reloads. With out spending money to find out I thought I would ask the question of those more experienced first. Cheers Stu

If I may just swim against the current -
Yes, the slower powder may well produce less 'felt' recoil. This would be due to a more gradual acceleration of the gun over a longer time period. The end result should be more of a 'push'. Will you actually notice the difference? Maybe. The difference might be as much as a painfull 'kick' to a healthy (but not insignificant) 'push'.

Loads with less powder, in most instances will offer less recoil.. there are a few powders that do seem to have a sharper kickback to them when they are reduced loaded...

but overall, the less powder you burn, the less the recoil is going to be...and the lighter the bullet the less the recoil is going to be also..

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Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

Originally posted by stuey:
Hi folks, does anyone know if there is a relationship between the burn rate of powder and the felt recoil?
For instance at the moment I use a medium burning powder in my 416 Rigby. The manual also suggests that I can run a slow powder in my reloads. With out spending money to find out I thought I would ask the question of those more experienced first. Cheers Stu

If I may just swim against the current -
Yes, the slower powder may well produce less 'felt' recoil. This would be due to a more gradual acceleration of the gun over a longer time period. The end result should be more of a 'push'. Will you actually notice the difference? Maybe. The difference might be as much as a painfull 'kick' to a healthy (but not insignificant) 'push'.

I agree with this. I use IMR4350 in my .338 mag and think that the recoil is fairly soft. I have always attributed it to the gradual burn of the powder. When using faster powder, I can definitely feel more recoil.

If you are loading near full house loads in the Rigby you are still talking about more than a maidens caress. Despite what Ray might say. I doubt you will see any noticable decrease in recoil. You can get considerable decrease in recoil using some of the lighter 325-300 gr bullets. Not the best move if you are hunting DG. But if you are hunting DG you will not notice the recoil. Good hunting.

law of physics says, for every action there is a equal and opposit reaction. thus the recoil should be equal; the difference would be that a slow burning powder will spread the recoil over a longer period of time.

So we have to opinions, (1) Slow powder = push recoil and (2) Faster burn a sharper recoil. Does this all equal out when in order to get the same velocity we need more of the slow burner? Has anyone done the exercise? Cheers Stu.

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quote:

Originally posted by stuey:
... Has anyone done the exercise? ...

Yes, but... what really matters is how it feels, and how much recovery time it takes for you.

The difference should be easy enough for "you" to notice with that size Cartridge using the Heavy Bullets in just a few shots. In smaller Cartridges moving less Bullet weight, it is also noticable, but to a lesser degree.
-----

Where it is REAL EASY to notice the Felt Recoil difference, and the resultant cumulative effect, is with shotguns, while shooting large amounts of Clay Pigeons. Here you can load a few grains of a relatively Fast Powder and reach your Velocity goal. Same with using 2-3 times the amount of Powder, but using a Slow Powder.

The cumulative Impact Effect over the span of a day is very considerable and quite easy to notice. Just another of the many reasons I prefer the Slower Powders - Shotguns, Rifles, Pistols, or Revolvers.

Best of luck to you.

At least one gun design book says to calculate recoil multiply 1.5 times the projectile velocity to get the approximate effective powder velocity.

total momentum of bullet and powder = momentum of the recoiling gun = ~[Mass of the bullet][speed of the bullet] + [Mass of the powder][1.5 X speed of the bullet]

Slower powders use more powder so there is more total recoil.
If a faster powder can be felt to make the recoil over less time, it would not be in a gun with a long recoil pad travel or a semi auto that spreads the recoil over time.

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
At least one gun design book says to calculate recoil multiply 1.5 times the projectile velocity to get the approximate effective powder velocity.

total momentum of bullet and powder = momentum of the recoiling gun = ~[Mass of the bullet][speed of the bullet] + [Mass of the powder][1.5 X speed of the bullet]

Slower powders use more powder so there is more total recoil.
If a faster powder can be felt to make the recoil over less time, it would not be in a gun with a long recoil pad travel or a semi auto that spreads the recoil over time.

I was wondering why someone hadn't posted this earlier.Way to go "tnekkcc:" Takes an engineering mind I guess? roger

My father used to quote a book: Hayes elements of ordinance.

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