I'm sure this has been covered before but can anyone explain the reason for tipping the cases over into the water they are standing in during neck annealing? I have taken to annealing the necks before de-capping to keep the cases dry. It works for me but why do some folks tip them over?

you want the neck softened, not the casehead

Brass hardens the opposite of steel. Steel hardens when you rapid cool, brass softens when you rapid cool.

You just want to anneal the neck, no other part of the case .Tipping into water stops the annealing instantly.BTW that whole process is recommended by Norma so it's not just something somebody made up.

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
Brass hardens the opposite of steel. Steel hardens when you rapid cool, brass softens when you rapid cool.

+1

I thought I remembered that cooling rate had very little to do with brass hardness.

http://www.scialert.net/pdfs/j...57KJhT68JKHgh76JG7Ff

This paper makes me believe that normalized brass, heated and left to cool, is less hard and has more ductility than quenched.

But the difference is hardly worth bothering.

I suspect you could just leave the necks above water, heat them, and not tip them over, and acheive the same results.

I also suspect the tip over idea was of concern that the heat might anneal the case head.

Probably the tip over technique is safer, and does not hurt a thing.

Another opinion:


http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

An interesting point, SlamFire....

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
brass softens when you rapid cool.

No it doesn't.

The water is not necessary. Brass hardens when it is worked (sized and fired). It softens when it is heated, not when quenched in water.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
Brass hardens the opposite of steel. Steel hardens when you rapid cool, brass softens when you rapid cool.

+1

Not true, brass anneals/softens once heated enough whether quenched or let cool down slowly on its own, they are quenched to stop the annealing at that point.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
It works for me but why do some folks tip them over?

Because someone mistakingly told them that's the way they have to do it.

I must agree with Doc & Roger ; Tipping into water is unnecessary . The key is to soften the neck

and shoulder 660 Degrees F. is Ideal temp. . What's not desirable is heating the

body or case head .

So many people used to set cartridges into a shallow pan of water and heat the neck

and shoulder until bright Orange or worse glowing red , then tip them so as to

stop the induction heating process .


I borrowed this from Jim Harris and Ken Lights page on annealing see the link and read it .


by Jim Harris and Ken Light

Annealing--Basic Concepts

Annealing is a process wherein heat is applied to a metal in order to change its internal structure in such a way that the metal will become softer. Most of us think of "heat treating" when we think of applying heat to a metal in order to change its internal structural properties. The word "heat treating" is most commonly associated with steel. However, the term heat treating is not annealing, except in a general and journalistic sense of the word. Heat-treating refers to a process wherein the metal is made harder. Annealing always means to make the metal softer.

In order to make steel harder, it is heated to some temperature, and then cooled fairly rapidly, although this is not always the case. Brass, on the other hand, cannot be made harder by heating it--ever. Brass is always made softer by heating.

The only way brass can be made harder is to "work" it. That is, the brass must be bent, hammered, shaped or otherwise formed. Once it has been made hard, it can be returned to its "soft" state by annealing. The hardness of brass can be controlled by annealing for a specified time and temperature.

Unlike steel, which will be made harder when it is cooled rapidly, brass is virtually unaffected when it is rapidly cooled. Annealing brass and suddenly quenching it in water will have no measurable effect on the brass. Cartridge cases are made of brass. When cartridge cases have been reloaded a number of times, the case necks become harder. Annealing will return the cartridge case necks to their factory original state.


http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

If one wants to anneal a lot of brass fairly quickly then a mechanized machine such as theirs

works REAL WELL !. Other wise set up a rotating chuck ( portable or permanent motor

and chuck set up ) slow RPM two torches at 170 degree opposing angle different caliber cases

require more or less torch time . There are temperature lacquers or marking sticks to aid

in knowing how much time is require for a particular cartridge under the torches .

If you go this route time the process , then it becomes unnecessary to use the markers .

Because you have to clean off the junk it leaves behind . By heating a case under rotation

your case is evenly annealed ( Far superior than other methods ) .

I made my own machine using parts a friend had lying around . Just Buy one , It was a pain to make !.

A pneumatic indexer, with variable time controller . I made the plate 1" X 12 " Dia.

drilled 18 through holes .625 dia, . I then cut 18 pieces of thin walled tubing and flanged one end .

( For .222 and .223 cases only ) as the plate rotates above a stationary table base plate which

has a single cut out in it . This allows cases to fall through after the cycling , thus allows another

case to be put into cycle . My annealed cases fall into a bucket of water . I use the water so the

case mouths don't become dented ( Not for cooling purposes ) .

I should also mention I made different thickness spacers to set under the rotating plate .

So as to allow for shorter and longer length cases , of which I only needed 3 to cover everything I load .

You tip them over so you can keep up with which ones you've done done.

Tipping over also instantly stops the transfer of heat to the body/head, so helps ensure that hardness of that part of the case is unaffected (but it is probably unnecessary).

I like the cases I anneal to be deprimed. That way they are immersed in water both inside and outside up to the waterline.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
Brass hardens the opposite of steel. Steel hardens when you rapid cool, brass softens when you rapid cool.

+1

+2

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
It works for me but why do some folks tip them over?

Because someone mistakingly told them that's the way they have to do it.

I like you!

quote:

You tip them over so you can keep up with which ones you've done done.

That I can relate to!

I stand mine in water deep enough to prevent annealing further down than required. It has worked so far.

Thanks for the idea Doc224/375!

A bit of testing showed that there is no way annealing can take place past or even up to the water line even with water on the outside only. With intense heating (ordinary gas flame), I cannot get the neat high enough to within 3mm of the water line even when the mouth and neck are glowing red.

Thanks for all the replies!

I'll repeat comments I've made before on this forum.
Annealing of brass starts about 450 F and it's a time/temperature dependent process.The annealing is done at temperature .It makes no difference whether it's cooled quickly or slowly !!!
The confusion arises [ other than pure myth] with certain precipitation hardening copper alloys which have two temperature treatments - solution treating and precipitation.In this operation quenching is necessary.
Mete [ Metallurical Engineer ]

I was going to get in here and saya thing or two but after reading the above....enough has been mentioned


No need for water.....couldn't resist.

There are almost as many old wives' tales concerning the annealing of brass cartridge cases as there are about primers. I'm told that quenching cases in water after annealing came from someone's half understood trip through a case manufacturing plant where case necks were VERY rapidly heated while standing in a water bath before final sizing. This is also the source of the highly ineffective stand-the-case-in-water-and-try-to-anneal-with-a-propane-torch method.

I have taken Kem Light's advice to heart years ago and some time after bought his machine. I have done some of the experiments like reaming the inside of a way over annealed case to see the difference between the outer surface and inner when annealing with a single propane torch and dropping the case in water before my fingers got burnt. I've painted the entire length of a case with Temp-L-Stick and seen just how far the heat travels toward the base of various cases when NOT quenched. Still, the old superstitions die hard and last long in the mind. If you get Ken to talk long enough on the subject, even he will admit he deigned the shellplate of his machine to be a heat sink to keep the heads from being softened too much on cases treated on his device.

I've learned one or two things to reset the ductility of case necks. This is over and above trying to get more loads from the case. I've learned not to try to anneal large cases (.30-06 size and above) with a single propane torch and not to quench them. I've learned that there is not much use in trying to anneal the short fat cases with wafer thin necks like the 6ppc at all. I've learned that you'd better use two torches to do annealing if you want to heat the neck fast enough to evenly heat it through and through up and down. I've learned that you had probably better use the quench the case in water method when annealing small bore small body cases like the .223 rem. especially if you ream or turn necks fairly thin. I've learned that the 22, 6mm and .30 BR cases are a pain to get annealed right machine or no, it takes some experimenting to do it right. I've learned that Frankford Arsenal's new annealing machine that was supposed to come out early last year and then middle of last year and supposedly now in February of 2009 is too close a copy of Ken's machine to ever come out at all unless some patent laws change or they start paying royalties. Along those same lines, I've learned that I was an idiot to give my KL machine to my son.

That's all I know for sure about annealing cases.

quote:

... certain precipitation hardening copper alloys which have two temperature treatments - solution treating and precipitation.In this operation quenching is necessary ...

I would love to hear more!

quote:

... No need for water.....couldn't resist.

Please go on. Aaah.... is it idiot proof? I once annealed then dried a whole batch of cases in the oven and forgot them. They got a bit hot and died after spending the whole night at elevated temperatures!

Thanks amamnn.

My idea was to stand the cases in water in a mesh basket so as to be able to heat them quite slowly and for a long time then lift the basket out and towel the outsides while the cases were still warm, to facilitate drying. That part worked out. I was worried about over-heating the cases 'though. Upon loading, they all felt the same when seating the bullet which is more I can say for un-annealed necks! But none of this is proof.

I anneal 270, 30.06, 7mag, 300 RUM, 270 AM cases all the time with no water, one torch, in a spinning Hornady bushing. No problems. Does a great job.

I have personally seen factory annealing and in the factory I was privileged to observe

this process in , was done with a multi headed Electric induction device . No open flame or gas at all

Cases simply went down a vibratory assembly line were racked picked up and the juice was slammed to them

and they were done . then the device swung over a bin and dropped them in .

Several of these multi headed electric induction machines were running and they were quick .

About 10-15 seconds is just a guess from pickup too dropping .

Similar too the way a spot welder works but not that hot and it only touched the neck and shoulder

area never the body or case heads . This left a fairly even discoloration ring around the top of the

shoulder and neck only . I was informed 660 degrees Fahrenheit was target temp .

From that point a rough optical inspection process , then onto the polishing process .

This might be a stupid question, but when do you know when the cases need to be annealed? I'm new and confused.

Man that's the Million $ question . You don't . So keep track of how many loadings you do and the hotter you

load the less loading you'll get . The trick is to figure out approximately how many loads you can do

with out annealing , before you want to anneal . Some people say 5 some 10 some 20 ?.

Opinions vary all over the place on this . 06 and .308 cases I do every 8 reloads , .223 10-15 depending on

the loads . Magnums it varies depending on case and powders used and how hot they are .

quote:

Originally posted by DICKY1:
This might be a stupid question, but when do you know when the cases need to be annealed? I'm new and confused.

The truth is, you don't. I posed this same question to one of the guys who owns and fabricates the brass-o-matic. He is a benchrest shooter. He anneals after every firing. To be technical, if I recall, he will clean the fired cases first, resize them, then anneal as the last step prior to priming. I do the same.

However, I think case design has something to do with it also. For example, your run of the mill 308, 30.06, 280 case can likely go 4-7 shots before really needing to be annealed, maybe more. However, overbore cals, such as 7mag, stw, 6.5x284, 243AI, etc., may need it more frequently.

I think that there are a lot of factors that harden the brass. For example, prior to sending my Redding 270 Win sizer die back to them for honing, the neck was squeezing the fired cases to a rediculously small diameter. Then couple that with dragging it back over the expander, then seating a bullet which opens it up another .001 or so, bumping the shoulder back....all this really work hardens the brass.

I picked Winchester brand brass, measured the outside diameter of a loaded round, subtracted 2 thousandths, recorded that number, sent the die back to Redding and had them hone the die to where it would resize the necks to that diameter. Now, I will either use Froggy's lube in the case mouth and seat a bullet without using the expander anymore, or have recently found that since the expander only works the neck open .001 after sizing, I still get little to no runout. What's more, no more lubing the expander or having those annoying, drag squeaks, and marks inside the case mouth. Some dies are so frickin tight after necking down, they actually pull the whole stem downward, regardless of how tight you make them. I would think they'd have better quality control than that.

My favorite dies are Redding and Forster. Redding charges $20 to hone. Forster charged $10. Guess which dies I will buy from now on?

Finally, remember this. ALL NEW BRASS COMES ANNEALED FROM THE FACTORY. YOU DO NOT NEED TO ANNEAL UNFIRED BRASS.

Video of water tipping anneal method. FWIW, I NEVER get mine so hot they glow like this. It's not necessary. I checked with temp paste.

Video: Close to the method I use. But I don't use MAPP.

quote:

Originally posted by DICKY1:
This might be a stupid question, but when do you know when the cases need to be annealed? I'm new and confused.

In proofing out Butch Lamberts Bushings, Six different size shoulders were put on the same piece of old military brass without annealing.Six shoulders are now on one piece of brass. Did this a number of times. Can E-Mail photos if interested.
Often find that when developing wildcats anealing is helpful but not always necessary. Over 51 years of plane day to day loading found that anealing is seldom needed. When I was a hot rodder found that the primer pockets would enlarge before annealing was required. Still does I think. roger

Perhaps it is coincidence, but I've noticed better groups overall in 3 rifles I shoot the most since I began annealing and had my dies modified. Not sure if it is a combo or mainly one or the other.

Annealing certainly does produce more consistent neck tension...a high priority for repeatable accuracy.

Here are but a couple of good links too cartridge manufacturing , loading and annealing info .

Worth reading if you've never read it before .

http://accurateshooter.wordpre...ridge-brass-is-made/

http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html

http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/jun96cases.html

303guy, since I have the numbers at hand for sterling silverI'll give them .Same process.1400F 3 min, quench.That puts things in solution. The age at 570 for 1 hour.

quote:

However, I think case design has something to do with it also. For example, your run of the mill 308, 30.06, 280 case can likely go 4-7 shots before really needing to be annealed, maybe more. However, overbore cals, such as 7mag, stw, 6.5x284, 243AI, etc., may need it more frequently.

You got it right in the next paragraph where you describe work hardening. The capacity of the case relative to the bore size has nothing to do with how quickly the brass work hardens -- only the amount of stretching and compression. The calibers you give as examples of needing more annealing are all calibers that are necessarily (or frequently in the case of the 7STW) reformed from other cases. The fact that they have been reformed means that they have been work-hardened and will need annealing sooner than the standard calibers that started life in their current form. Again, it has nothing to do with the capacity of the case relative to the bore, or "overbore" capacity.

Every now and then I get something right.

This is getting more and more interesting!

Well, after annealing a batch of 303 cases before sizing and firing once, I have found that the necks have not stretched as much as I would have expected. They are still tight enough to hold a bullet straight. Not tight enough to actually grip the bullet 'though.

quote:

He is a benchrest shooter. He anneals after every firing. To be technical, if I recall, he will clean the fired cases first, resize them, then anneal as the last step prior to priming. I do the same.

I thought I would anneal first so as not to crack any potential brittle brass. I also though sizing after annealing would set the brass more to some standard than otherwise because it would be at its softest. But I suppose, consistency would be the same if annealed after sizing if annealing is done after each firing.

Any idea how annealing after each firing affects case life? For the lazy person ... ahem ... it would make life much easier knowing the state of your brass without having to log the use of each one. What happens if ones goes hunting, fires a few rounds and them goes home and reloads those cases? (Get my drift?)
I cannot tell the difference between a 5 times fired case and a ten times fired one! When I started losing my 25 year old cases to neck splits I realized I hadn't annealed them for a while. (These were not loaded and fired every week-end for 25 years!)

For years I have heald the case head between my
left thumb and first finger and used a single propane torch. If you wobble the case it will
heat fairly even. If you are hanging on to the case you will not over heat it. To stop things I dip the case mouth into water.
Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
Brass hardens the opposite of steel. Steel hardens when you rapid cool, brass softens when you rapid cool.

+1

+2

+3

Hey 303Guy, The reason you should tip them into the Water is to keep the Case head from becoming Annealed and to complete the Annealing Process.

Since you are doing it at home without the $$$HIGH$$$ Induction System, or the HooDoo Systems, if you do not use water, it is a HUGE mistake.

Either very simple Method works and works well:
1. Pan of water over the Case Heads, with the Cases standing tall. Heat the Case Mouth until Red with a Propane Tourch and immediately tip the Case into the water.
2. Hold the Case Head in your hand, heat the Case Mouth until it is Red and immediately drop the Case into a bucket of water.

If the Case is too short to hold until the Case Mouth gets Red, then use #1.

Nothing tricky about it. No need to spend $$$HUGE$$$ on any Thingys. No need to get all frustrated and toss Cases that can have additional life by using a very simple Annealing(with the Water Quinch +4 )

Interesting how people can make something so simple into such a complex fiasco. Amazing!

Best of luck to you.

To make it even more simple, anneal after every 5 shots, and don't quench! It ain't necessary! Don't get the necks RED!!....that is too hot. The only reason you would need water is if you got the necks so rediculously hot!

Water quenching is not necessary to complete the annealing process. So, neener neener neener Hot Core.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Any idea how annealing after each firing affects case life?

Yes, it lasts a long long time.

303 Guy

"When going through life brother no matter what your goal keep your eye on the doughnut and not on the hole."

Some of what you are getting on this thread is confusing Blather and some is good stuff. Whether you take a scientific approach, an engineering approach or an EMPERICAL approach I think you'll come up with the answer you're looking for. You might even deside to read a metals hand book. roger

Thanks all for these posts,very good info and very interesting

quote:

... no matter what your goal keep your eye on the doughnut and not on the hole ...

That's good advice! Thanks.

quote:

You might even deside to read a metals hand book.

Thats good advice too. I don't read much but if the details are brief, I can get through them.

quote:

Thanks all for these posts,very good info and very interesting.

Same here! Yes, the good folks on this (and other) forum have a tremendous collective wisdom.

On the red hot issue, it may not be necessary but does it do any harm? Thing is, how do I know when the necks are hot enough if they don't show some red? (I have been heating them to red but only just).

PS. It's funny how some of us (um ... me) want to squeeze every last drop out of our cases, even spend 'hours' looking for one in the long grass when they actually only cost 50 cents!

Getting them too hot can certainly do harm. Not getting them hot enough does NO harm.

What I did was anneal about 300 cases of different calibers using temp paste. This is applied to the case wall just south of the shoulder. When this temp paste goes from white to clear, your temp is spot on and your case neck is annealed.

I never had to get one red hot before that happened. In fact, once they go to a goldish-brown color, you are DONE! The gold color will show on the shoulder and the neck will turn a bluish color.

After practicing with the temp paste, I found that my 270, 30.06, 308, 6.5x284 cases only took about 6 seconds on average. My 7mag cases to a second or two longer. My 300 RUM and 270 AM (both rem brass) took closer to 10 seconds if I recall. I have a chart at home.

But, I've talked with a lot of bench shooters, Ken Light, the guys at brass-o-matic, Hornady, Sierra, and they all stated to me that getting a red glow is OVERheating. Overheating definitely requires a quench in water, or at least the pan tipping method so your case head never gets that hot.