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I'm just about to reload my first batch of .223. I was cleaning my brass and noticed that some of it is 5.56. The guy at my local gun shop where I bought it told me that it is the same as .223 but I remember reading somewhere that 5.56 is a higher pressure load (around 60k psi). I can feel the difference between the two when I shoot (more noise and recoil). I know 5.56 brass is a tad bit thicker. Does the reduced capacity of the brass raise the pressure to 5.56 specs? Is it safe to reload 5.56 brass using .223 data? My gun is chambered for 5.56 so I don't mind if I end up with some hotter loads.. | ||
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The max pressure for 223 Rem and 5.56 Nato are the same. The SAAMI max pressure for 223 Rem is around 55K. While the case design is different, most rifle chambers will chamber both rounds. Brass will vary from each manufacturer. Using the 5.56 re-sized brass should work just fine. Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Fill a 5.56 case with water a weigh then do the same with a .223 case and get back with us with the results ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Not exactly, Rusty. SAAMI spec for 223 is 50,000 CUP and NATO spec for 5.56 x 45 is 60,000 CUP. The other issue is throat length; the NATO throat is longer and firing 5.56 in a 223 Win chamber can cause spikes. Most of what I've read about case wall thickness says that most cartridge cases are the same internally because most companies that make 223 brass also have LEO & military contracts or subcontracts for 5.56. It isn't worth the effort to go back and forth. They just change the bunter. I can't prove that, however. I have used 223 and 5.56 cases interchangeably now for years and never find much more difference in pressure than one normally finds in lot to lot variances of commercial cases. No matter what, proper reloading techniques always apply with new-to-you components. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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The 5.56 holds 29 grains of water the .223 holds 33 grains of water.. Wow! I thought there would be a bigger difference than that. Thats only about 2 drops of water difference. Not sure how to convert that to volume but it doesn't seem like a whole lot. | |||
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Where could I find the load data If I wanted to reload to 5.56 specs? My manual doesn't list it. I even did a google search and didnt really find anything useful. | |||
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tittertate... Read this link from SAAMI for their 223 pressure spec: http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm You'll hear different readings on the 5.56 Nato but this is what I get that it is: Maximum pressure 430.00 MPa (62,366 psi) I haven't found much difference between the commercial brass and military that would make a reloading difference. It's not nearly the difference found in the 30-06 and 7.62 NATO and their counterparts. The big concern in the differences in the throats. The NATO throat is very long as compared to the 223. The situation that could occur is shooting a NATO round in a 223 chamber where the bullet actually is against the rifling leade in. Being the NATO is loaded to a higher pressure and the fact that the bullet could be against the rifling could lead to an over pressure. | |||
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If you think the 5.56/.223 confustion creates a problem, you should see how many guns get blown up with shooters thinking that the .244 Rem and 6mm Rem are the same. Even worse are the catastrophes caused by the confusion between the 7mm Express Remington and the .280 Remington -- but worst of all is the deadly .275 Rigby/7x57 mistake. Just because these cases all fit the same chamber and use the same ammunition, don't believe that they are in any way safe to fire! Of course it is just fine to fire .300 Weatherby factory ammunition in any rifle so-marked, regardless of whether the chamber has any freebore. | |||
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What Andrew said. Depending on whose .223 Remington ammo you by it is made with the same case as their 5.56 ammo. The only 5.56 load specs I've seen are on Ramshot's load data. Except for extreme cases (pushing 1000 yards) .223 data will do what you need. A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work. | |||
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[quote].244 Rem and 6mm Rem are the same. Even worse are the catastrophes caused by the confusion between the 7mm Express Remington and the .280 Remington according to all my old reloading manual. they have 280/7mm express remington in the same column. it was first interducted as the 280 rem. in 1957... the name was changed in 1979 but caused confussion. the name was changed back to 280 rem. in the 700 mountain rifel.. at one time i had some 7 mm express brass and loaded them in my 280.. | |||
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 Sounds like some more chicken little post. Wonder how much milsup 5.56 ammo has been shot in a .223???? I'll bet more that several. Also, I've read that, unlike 30-06 and .308 brass, 5.56/.223 brass is not held to different standards of manufacture. (they weigh the same) Finally, how can you say "no pressure signs" when you only get two reloads from a case?? What do you call "pressure signs"? Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Yes you do, or at least you should. | |||
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From SAAMI`s unsafe cartridge combination list. http://www.saami.org/specifica...ion_Combinations.pdf In a 223 Remington chamber do not fire: 5.56mm Military 222 Remington 25-45 Sharps 30 Carbine 300 AAC Blackout ------------------------------------ The trouble with the Internet is that it's replacing masturbation as a leisure activity. ~Patrick Murray "Why shouldn`t truth be stranger then fiction? Fiction after all has to make sense." (Samual Clemens) "Saepe errans, numquam dubitans --Frequently in error, never in doubt". | |||
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You are correct TG, my typing and not looking! Thanks! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Did I miss something?? I think you misunderstood what I meant by that. I was asking if the reduced volume in the 5.56 brass would raise the pressure to 5.56 specs. If it did I wouldn't mind because my gun is made to shoot 5.56 AND Im only shooting at bottles and crap. No sniper target shooting. lol I would have separated the 5.56 from the .223 and used the 5.56 when I got the urge to really blow the crap out of something  | |||
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Only thing I know to do is start with 223 data and use a chronograph to work up to 5.56 velocity. If you sign onto AR15.com you might find a lot of data. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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5.56 ammo in a 223 will not blow up the gun. Real pressure tested data done by Barnes. Not some internet myth.  5.56 brass does not automatically have less case capacity than civilian 223 brass. In fact most 5.56 brass has more case capacity than 223 brass. http://www.6mmbr.com/223rem.html From Sierra. The conventional wisdom to reduce loads with military brass is familiar to most reloaders and is generally good advice. The rationale here is that the military cases tend to be somewhat thicker and heavier than their civilian counterparts, which in turn reduces capacity and raises pressures. This additional pressure normally requires a one or two grain reduction from the loads shown in most manuals or other data developed with commercial cases. While this is most often the situation with both 308 Winchester and 30-06 cases, it is less true with the 223 brass. We have found that military cases often have significantly more capacity than several brands of commercial brass. Again, take the time to do a side-by-side comparison of the cases you are working with and adjust your load as needed. There may be no need for such a reduction with the 223. Know your components and keep them segregated accordingly. There is 5.56 specif data available from Accurate and Ramshot. http://www.accuratepowder.com/...te_load_data_3.5.pdf http://www.ramshot.com/wp-cont...ot_handgun_rifle.pdf | |||
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Nobody in this thread said that switching the ammo around would blow up your gun. It only makes sense to use the correct ammo for the chamber even those the two rounds are just about identical. | |||
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You are right nobody said it would blow up a rifle, but they did say this.
Which is a major exaggeration to say the least. | |||
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Now it seems I am the one that wasn't paying attention. If you fired a 5.56 in a .223 chamber or vice versa wouldn't what came out be a fire formed case to whatever chamber you were shooting the cartridge out of??? The sky is falling, the sky is falling.... Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Free bore is the difference....thats about it ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Mostly. I had a Savage 24V in .223/20 that wouldn't reliably fire surplus 5.56x45mm. It's now a 6x45mm, I resize .223 in nickel to color-code it from the rounds for the Mini-14. TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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A lot of rifles that are marked ".223" in fact have NATO 5.56 chambers. Case in point, Zastava Mini Mausers. | |||
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Stoney - Was that tongue in cheek? If not, I am now totally confused, I have read many times, and always believed, that the .280 Remington and the Remington 7m/m Express are exactly the same cartridge. Gun folk lore has it that the .280 Remington had its name changed (for marketing purposes only) to 7m/m Remington Express and, when that led to problems with folks confusing the 7m/m Remington Express with the 7 m/m Remington Magnum, the name was changed back to .280 Remington. Is that not technically correct? Or did you mean to put in your post that the really bad confusion and problem was folks using the 7m/m Express in the 7m/m Magnum? Not trying to get on your case; just wanta make sure I've not misunderstood or missed a technicality on the .280/7mm Express Remingtons all these years. Best wishes, AC My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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Considering that he also pointed out the .244/6mmRem and the 7x57/.275Riggs confusion, I'd say his tongue was firmly in his cheek. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Funny thing about the 300 Whby. When my uncle first took delivery of his 300 in the mid 1950s, there wasn't a bunch of 300 Whby ammo around. He used to fire form from factory 300 H&H. Talk about scary! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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+1 Chambers are the same; different throat. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Do you think that chambers on M16's and SAW's, to just name two fully automatics, are the same as a 223 chamber in say a Rem 700, the only difference being free bore? | |||
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I guess case dimensions would have been more accurate statement. I really don't know what hoops may be jumped through to make a reliable full auto weapon. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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As is the Ruger Mini-14. | |||
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According to Clymer, The chamber for a 5.56 is 2 thousandths larger in diameter through the body, 4 thousandths longer from base to shoulder and 3 thousandths longer in the neck. From what I've always been told the looser chamber accounts for crud build up in the chamber. Case dimensions are the same. Pressure is different. I've also heard that the difference in pressure could be the difference in how its measured, transducer and CUP. A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work. | |||
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Now to add to the mud... the Wylde chamber will accommodate both. And with match accuracy. It is my understanding that the "NATO" 5.56 chamber is very slightly larger to ensure easy extraction. Though I don't see how a slighly expanded case will change much. The throat is different for sure though not by enough to be catastrophic. The Wilde chamber is supposed to be the ultimate fix. My question is is it worth cleaning up a factory chambered .223 Rem with a Wilde reamer? | |||
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Posted By: Bill Wylde Date: Thursday, 13 November 2003, at 8:46 a.m. In Response To: Re: .223 Wylde The case dimensions of the Wylde reamer are that of one of the NATO prints. Not a thing tight about it. As I recall, there were two NATO prints in use. I don't recall the print number used, but do have it in old records somewhere. Throating was about the only change. The decision was made to make the freebore diameter .2240" as a good bullet seal. That done, excess freebore made little difference to accuracy. One of the reasons the magazine length 69's shot so well in the chamber. It so happened that the 80 grain Sierra seated to the lands was about ideal at .2470" OAL. Simple luck.....All of it. The initial reamer(designed in 1984)was mainly geared toward Canadian 5.56 ball, as I was experimenting with their issue ball for competitive purposes. This operation was slow in getting off the ground, and really didn't start happening until about 1990. The use of 5.56 NATO ball in Canada was a short lived affair. Handloads were allowed in about 1994. Just prior to this time the AR's were gaining great strength in the U.S. The military finally got involved. The rest is history. You might ask how the the 62 grain 5.56 ball worked for Canadian LR prone shooting to 1,000 yds? It was supersonic in barrels of 28", and longer. It also was very competitive with the 147 grain 7.62 ball in use there at the time. The wind drift differential at long range (7.62/5.56) was about 15% in favor of the 7.62. Those days were very interesting. | |||
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I guess that I shouldn't have overlooked the .308 Winchester and the 7.62 Nato; the .30-06 Government and the .30-06 Springfield; the .30 WCF and the .30-30 Winchester; the .250 Savage and the .250-3000; the .22 Magnum and .22 WMR; and a few more dangerous pairings. My point is that the name of a cartridge is exactly that -- the name of a cartridge. It is only related to the dimensions of the chamber and leade insofar as some standard has been developed and manufacturers sometimes choose to follow different standards in their chambers. Regardless of what name you place on them, the chambers of military rifles tend to be somewhat more capacious than those of commercial rifles, largely for the purpose of accepting a variety of ammunition along with grit and dirt and still allow the ammunition to chamber and function. More capacious chambers tend to provide less chamber pressure, all other things being equal. Whether a chamber is marked ".223 Remington" or "5.56 Nato" has much less to do with the dimensions of the chamber than to the personality of the shooter the manufacturer wishes to appeal to. | |||
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.244 Rem and 6MM Rem can't be interchanged?? I always heard that Remington changed only the barrel twist in 1963 and renamed it 6MMRem from .244 Rem and same case of course would be used??? Please enlight if I'm mistaken. | |||
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Now I heard from a guy in a bar who got the straight story from his third cousing who works with a guy who talked to Bubba (conversation took place before thecase of beer was all drunked up) over at a gunshop that you can't shoot M2 ammunition in a M1903 because the chamber is made for the 30-06 which everyone knows the "'06" is the first cartridge the rifle was designed for, ergo you can't shoot any other in it even if the cartridge case is similar! So now you know the truth of the matter....... Larry Gibson | |||
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| <Andrew cempa> |
Finally, how can you say "no pressure signs" when you only get two reloads from a case?? What do you call "pressure signs"?[/QUOTE] Im my expereince with REM 223 brass used explicity for my 600 yard loads, I have no blown primers, no case head expansion and no ruptures, however, I do see tell tale rings in the case body indicating incipient separation about 1/2 way up the case body. While some would call such rings indicators of pressure, I do not, rather they are signs that the brass has been worked both by the resizing sequence and the firing expansion processes to the extent I no longer trust the brass for another reload. Lake City based short line ammo (75 Horn BTHPs at mag length and farily stiff charges of Varget) gets to 6 or so reloads before I see the same rings and ocasionally have a body separation (I hate alibis refires etc) which I attribute to the rough "under pressure" extraction as well as tired brass. As far as exaggerating the 50% over pressure from 556 in 223 chambers, well I suppose 55k to 70+ k is not quite 50% more, but rather at least 15k past the 223 spec max. 15/55 is 27.3% over pressure. Still, a bit warm, no? Regards; | ||
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