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Gentlement, I have decided to try loading 180 Partitions in my -06, and since there is no data for IMR 4350 on the Nosler site, I found some here. The data I read said that most rifles would should well between 57-58 gr. of IMR 4350 with 180 Partitions, so I backed off to about 54 gr. and started loading up half a grain at a time. I just finished my testing today, with the last four three-shot groups ( 57-58.5 gr.). Here is the question. Am I way over safe limits with this load? I notice that the primers are a little flat (I use CCI 200s) but I am well under an inch for three shots at 58.0 and 58.5gr. I am shooting an M70 Stainless Classic with a 24 inch bbl. Will IMR 4831 give more or less pressure with an equivilent load? I am not interested in seeing how far I can go before stuff bends, but I think that if this is safe, I will be onto a good load. What are your thoughts? | ||
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M70 TELL ME WHAT IS THE VELOCITY......thats the key to yout answer, 2800 fps is pretty well max for the 06 with IMR4350 H4350 with a 24 inch tube the best powder in the 06 is WXR; R22; AND NORMA MRP for a vel of 2850 plus at lower pressures Daniel | |||
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Why play around to wring out another 50 to 100 fps? If you want max velocity out of an 06, as Daniel there said, RL 22 does a good job... if you want another North American available powder if RL 22 and 19 are not available there in Northern BC,. try H 4831SC..."with a 180 grain bullet, you can't get enough in the case to cause pressure problems.." Quote from Nosler's Chief Ballsticians on this forum several years ago, when this subject came up... | |||
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4831 should be alright with the 180s, you'll be putting in more powder and only your rifle will tell you if its going to give you a few extra FPS with similar or hopefully better accuracy, and the case should be a little fuller..maybe you could try some hodgon, they do own IMR after all your probably on the upperlimits of 4350. 2700FPS with 180s would be pretty good. | |||
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Nosler #5 lists 55.0 grains as the max for IMR4350 with the 180 Partition. So, yes, you are beyond where you should be. Ditto what others have said for RL22. For the 180 Partition, min is 57.0 grains and max is 61.0 grains in the .30-06. If you want more velocity, try a 165 grain bullet. On the other hand, the 180 grain ought to work quite well with a 2700-2800 fps muzzle velocity. How was the accuracy on the lower charge IMR4350 loads? You may just need to try a different powder. LWD | |||
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How is the bolt lift and extraction?, closely examine the brass for any signs of pressure, you say primer is flat? then you need to back down on your load a bit. Velocity is not an indicator of pressure. Velocity is not an indicator of pressure. I am no expert but when I work up a load for my hunting rifles the number one thing I look for is absolute reliability. This means it must extract easy and bolt lift must be easy and no indications of pressure at all this way I know that if I have a little rain or dust in the barrel or am hunting in hotter than normal weather or have chambered a dirty-dusty-icey-or muddy cartridge or any number of unknowns that I have built in a very slight margin of error so that my load is not right on the bubble and waiting for one little thing that would put it into an over pressure situation while anywhere or on a hunt. Second thing I look for is the best accuracy I can expect from that rifle for the type of game being hunted with the appropriate bullet for that situation. The very last thing I look for in a hunting load is the velocity. I don't have to have 300 mag velocity out of my 30/06 but I usually end up towards the top end of my reloading manual for my hunting loads if both of the above guidelines have been met. That said my tried and true load for my 30/06 and 180 grain bullets is a plain jane load of IMR-4350 consisting of 56 grains with WW brass and CCI primers. In my rifle this load is very accurate, utterly reliable and its performance has proven to me that the velocity is more than adequate ( I have never bothered to chrony this load). This load has accounted for a Mountain Goat at 21 paces, a Bull Elk at 425 yards and dozens of Deer, Elk and Antelope and a Bighorn Sheep at every imagineable range in between. I think you are fishing on thin ice with the load you described, I recommend you back off a bit for reliabilities sake, not to mention safety. | |||
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Thanks to all who replied. I did notice that the bolt was not as smooth as usual, though not really sticky. Accuracy up to 57.5 gr. was about 1.5-2 inches, but 58 and 58.5 dropped to half of that. I am not a velocity nut, I just wanted to find an accurate load. I will try my IMR 4831, and that failing, I will try H4831sc. Thanks again for the replies | |||
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M70 what were the accuracy results around 55 to 56 grains of IMR-4350? Not that it will work in yours but I've found this to be a shooter in about 5 different 30/06's. Try seating depth variations as well some rifles like it close to the lands and some like it a ways off. | |||
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I like 4350 in my 06. I do think 58grs is pushing it for a 180gr bullet tho. As posted, why strain for an extra 50 or 100 fps? Just let the 06 do what it does best. | |||
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If one doesn't have an old Springfield or something like it where ammo can become commingled, there is no valid reason why one can't operate the venerable -06 at the same pressures generated by the 270 Winchester. The difference between 50,000 CUP and 54,000 CUP is negligible in modern rifle construction, and I don't see that "increase" as irresponsible hot rodding. Some more classic examples would be the 280 Remington, or the beloved old "Bob" aka 257 Roberts. All of these can benefit from a little judicious hand loading IMHO. | |||
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I'll second that motion. FWIW, you left out the 7x57 which will also benefit by a bit of judicious handloading.  It would really be interesting as hell if one could get friendly with one of the guys who do load work ups for the reloading manuals. I would be willing to bet that they have data for the above mentioned rounds tested to modern pressures for their own personal use. Data that we are not privy to.  FWIW, I don't worry about whether my hot handloads are too hot for use in hot weather. I work them up in Southern Arizona's 100 plus degree summers. velocity loss isn't too bad come hunting season as it doesn't get all that cold here.  Now with cartridges that are modern and loaded to modern levels, I do stay at or below maximum levels as determined by my particular rifles. Paul B. | |||
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I did some thoroughly testing with several rifles in .30-06 and 180 grs Bullets, incl, NP´s. Found 56,4 grs to be TOP ( read: MAX! ) Used 56,4 grs with 165 grs Bullets henceforth and would NEVER go over 56,0 grs with 180 grs again. If your groups shrink with hotter charges, try a different primer or seating depth ( or a factory crimp die, but that´s the last resort )( in any case don´t forget to go back and work up again ). H formerly, before software update, known as "aHunter", lost 1000 posts in a minute | |||
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The 180 grain is a good all around bullet in the .30-06, but you might try the "optimized" 165 grain bullets for more velocity. In my experience the 165 is extremely accurate, and the hollow point versions will field dress a deer for you. LLS  | |||
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SNELLSTORM Within the normal pressure parameters of say 50 to 65,000 psi, if velocity is not an indicator of pressure...i dont know what is ie the higher velocity in a given case the higher the pressure....its so simple....there are no free lunches on the pressure gun in the lab ...06 barrel , one barrel will chew up 58.5 grain of h 4350 for a velocity of 2800, put another barrel in the reciver and it will give 2800 with 57 gns with the same powder there are no fast slow barrels....velocity is achived at thr EXPENSE OF PRESSURE! I can run my 06 at 70,000 psi with no real physical signs of high pressur, get more than 10 reloads out of the same case with tight primer pockets etc, and one could assume pressure is fine, the one water tight indication that im over pressure is that i know that for that powder charge the velocity of the particular proj runs at 70,000 psi on the pressure gun....and the pressure gun does not lie regards daniel | |||
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Of course not, and neither do politicians or clergymen. The pressure generated by a given load is particular to the gun in which it is fired. Pressure gun chambers and barrels vary from one another, and most certainly vary from the chambers and barrels of production rifles. The only thing data from a pressure gun tells you is the RELATIVE pressure of that load compared to other loads in THAT gun. Technicians go through all sorts of gyrations to attempt to control for variables in order to say something meaningful about the absolute data from pressure guns, but there is nothing they can do to control for the chamber and bore of your rifle. In a modern turn-bolt rifle, the weakest part of the pressure containment system is the brass case (imagine that, a .03" thick piece of brass is weaker than a .250" wall of steel!) "Excessive" pressure in a modern turn-bolt can only be described as pressure that will either rupture the primer or render the case useless within just a few firings due to dimensional distortions. The manifestations of excessive pressure may be hard bolt lift, scoring of the case head, extrusion of the primer into the firing pin hole, or engraving of the case where it is unsupported by the action or bolt face. The problem with using loads that exhibit any of these manifestations is not that your bolt is going to fly out of the gun through your head, but rather that a case or primer may rupture (the escaping gas creating a hazardous situation for the shooter) or that the operation of the gun may be impaired. Ultimately, the reuse of the brass is limited or non-existent. Bottom line: If your brass is reusable for multiple loadings (five or more is my personal minimum) without its head becoming excessively swelled or the primer pocket becoming unacceptably loose to retain the primer firmly, then your load is "safe" (IN THAT RIFLE), regardless of where it falls -- higher or lower -- than some published maximum. Reloading manuals are guidelines, not gospels. But like the gospel, they have some good suggestions which should not go unheeded. | |||
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RamShot Hunter. It meters. | |||
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Work up to 56.5 grains IMR 4831 with WLR primer and Winchester case. This load gives me 2685 fps and just under 1 MOA in my 06 with 22" barrel. | |||
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i can shoot one hole groups at 100 with 58.0 gr of imr 4350 with 150 gr hornady interbond | |||
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Hey, what's with the swipe at us clergy? I don't mind being lumped in with politicians, but BALLISTICIANS?!  If you'd like an indulgence, then, I'm receiving collections for a nice little Kimber I've got my eye on!  friar Our liberties we prize, and our rights we will maintain. | |||
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Thanks again to all who replied. The groups below 58.0 grains were all above 1.5 inches. 58.0 grains was about .75 of and inch, and 58.5 grains was .5 of an inch. I am not really trying to turn my 06 into a 300 mag, I just wanted to see if I could get a load out of IMR 4350. I will try my IMR 4831 next, and, failing that, I will go to a totally different powder. As a side note, that gun will shoot 5 180 grain Remington corelocts into less than .75 an inch if I do my part (54.0 IMR4350), and can easily send 3 Hornady 180 SPs into less than an inch with 56.0 IMR 4831. I couldn't get the Hornadys to group with 4350 at all. I wanted to try the Noslers for elk this year in case the hornadys I ordered a month ago don't show up. Anyway, Thanks again to all who responded. I am much indebted to the many true gentlemen on this site who share what they know. I will post results when I have time to test a new load. Straight shooting, Graham | |||
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Again, back off on your loads. You are WAY above maximum. 58 grains give more than 66,000 psi. Max for the .30-06 is 58,740. You should rather try finding a load around 53 to 54 grains which will deliver the required accuracy. | |||
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That's not too shabby at all. More importantly, it suggests you have a potentially quite accurate rifle. Just keep playing with different powders. I continue to be amazed at how much difference the powder and changing powder makes. LWD | |||
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This may be a little off topic, but have you checked the diameter of your bullets. I have measured various lots of Nosler bullets and found .308, .307 and .306" lots. My favorite 06 just does not like the .306 diameter bullets and will not shoot well no matter what I stuff in the case. It took me a lot of head scratching to finally figure this out. | |||
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Previously posted by M98
M98 you seem to be awfully quick to try to start a fight! Please keep this civil remember we are having fun! And the name is Snellstrom not storm thank you. You originally posted when in fact that is not THE KEY, it is one of SEVERAL things that could keep him on the right track. If there are no signs of pressure on the brass and primers and easy bolt lift how in the hell is an abitrary number like VELOCITY going to tell him he is over acceptable pressure limits for his rifle? Please review your above quote before you reply where you said that one barrel may give you 2800 fps with with 57 grains and another barrel will give you 2800 fps with 58.5, using your own words how does this prove your point? If you do not pay attention to the indicators that your brass, primers and bolt lift are giving you and develop loads using a Chrony instead you will put someone in deep trouble in a hurry. You need to pay attention to the indications that your brass and primers and bolt lift are giving you whether those signs of pressure occur at 2500 fps or 2900 fps has no bearing on the facts that the brass-primers-bolt lift tell you. Please everyone be safe. | |||
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+1 Your better off with normal vels | |||
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My standard 06-180gr load has always been 57 grs. IMR 4350. Gives to speeds and is normally very accurate. | |||
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m70 classic, try and borrow a cronograph from a friend,ifin you can't get one heres what i do,measure your case head expansion with a caliper or micrometer, i weigh all my brass and seperate them by one grain weights,on my ditial scale. then i start loading them with a ladder test,ie going up 1/2 grain of powder till i reach almost max for my rifle,flat primers don''t tell me as much as measureing case head expansion, go back a measure your cases starting with 54 grains of imr 4350,i mark mine with a black magic marker and keep them seperate,you'll fine through measureing that your case head measurement grows as you load more powder ie 58 gr...58.5 grs,many different brands of brass weigh more or less then other brands, even same lots of brass from one manufacture can and do vary in what they weigh,for the non-magnums ie 30-06 your allowed .5 thousands expansion, ..... with the magnums its .7 thousands. winchester brass has more powder room= less weight, imr 4831 will give less pressure from the start but you'll end up shooting 2 grains higher at max so it a tie. nice rifle you got there  regards | |||
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Something to keep in mind ...........the relationship between velocity and pressure is not linear..........most of us know this, some of us forget, and there are some that have to learn the hard way. | |||
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MHC-- Thanks for the reminder! Basically what you are saying is that velosity may increase by a little bit, while pressure increases dangerously? On a side note, does anyone have information for 30-06 using a 180 Nosler Partition, and IMR 4831? That is the next one to try that I have and was just wondering what the max is. I would reduce that by 5-10% and start there. Thanks for all the help! Straight shooting, Graham | |||
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I disagree. All powders have a minimum amd maximum efficient burning range where the rise in pressure/velocity is linear. This is easy to prove by graphing the charge/velocity on graph paper. By starting with the start load, plot the charge vs velocity as you work up A simple example might be a start load of 50.0 gr. of powder X to a max of 54.0 gr. Of course, case head and expansion ring measurement are taken at the same time as the charge/velocity readings are plotted. lets say that 50.0 gr. gives 2500 FPS. 50.5, 2550 FPS, 51.0, 2610 FPS, 51.5, 2640 FPS, 52.0, 2690 FPS, 52.5, 2730 FPS, 53.0, 2790 FPS, 53.5, 2840 FPS, 54.0, 2900 FPS. You will note that so far, upon reaching the "published max that pressure has been relatively linear with no more than about a 60 FPS change. case head measurements have been within reason so you decide to a bit higher. (Remember, we're doing a 30-06 which is not loaded to full potential.) So we go to 54.5 gr. and 2930 FPS, 55.0, 2970 FPS (so far, so good) 55.5 gr. and whoa! 2890 FPS? What's happening. You've gone past that powders maximum, efficient burning range and pressures will be weird. By the same token, that same charge might give a velocity of 3100 FPS. Again, for the same reason. You've passed the burning/pressure range for that powder. By plotting this on a graph as you shoot, it's easy to determine when you're about to go too far for that powder or have gone too far. Once you get a radical deviation from the general linearity shown on the graph, it's time to back off. It's not a perfect system, but along with case and expansion ring measurements, it is a useful tool toward keeping one out of serious trouble. Try using it a time or two and see if it work for you. I've used it since sometime in 1980 when I got my first chronograph. Paul B. | |||
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well steve's pages show the max for I4350 to be 57 grns. Remember Steve's MAXs really are MAXs cause they cover like every published load ever. So I don't know I would be to keen on exceeding 57 grns and I would only use 57 if I worked up slowly Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Could someone post a link to Steve's pages? I used to have that on another computer, but I have since lost it. Regards, Graham | |||
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Ask and ye shall receive http://stevespages.com/page8a.htm Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Thanks kindly Regards, Graham | |||
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Thanks Paul saves a lot of head scratching when things get strange working up a load. | |||
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Just a quick update. I loaded a bunch of -06 with IMR 4831 (54-58gr. up in .5 gr. increments), 180 Nosler Partitions, and CCI 200s. The 55.5 and 56.5 loads were well under an inch, and since that seems to be close to max in the books I've got (Speer and Hornady), that is probably where I'll stop. I will load another 5 with both just to ensure that it wasn't a fluke, and will report on the success of the mission. Thanks for all the input. Regards, Graham | |||
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Thanks for the update Graham, you are now in safe territory with the loads you mentioned, if they are accurate and function well in your rifle you have a very useable load. Good luck! | |||
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Paul B I agree with you .....that there is a linear relationship in velocity and pressure over a certain part of the presure curve(or burn rate, as it is the expanding gases that are generating the pressure). My point is/was, that with max loads (which we were talking about in this thread) this relationship can depart rapidly from a linear relationship and that's when you can get into trouble. I use the same method that you do, I load a series (string) of loads in 1/2 grain increments and chronograph them.....looking for that linear relationship and when that predictable linear relationship starts to break down I know that I'm starting to get in uncharted or unpredictable territory (probably a good place to stop). Some people say that a chronograph isn't useful for predicting pressure and in a way they are right, because it only measures velocity. But it (chronograph) is a very useful tool for developing safe handloads, when used with the other empirical methods of looking for signs of excessive pressure (i.g., case head expansion, sticky extraction, flattened primers, etc.) | |||
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Winchester brass WW primer 180 nosler partition 56gr imr4350 Nice load in my 3006s. | |||
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This not true!!!!!!! I will remind all of you to look in some of the reloading manuals some powders with less pressure than other powders have a higher FPS Everyone has gone through the hot rodding of reloading including me in thier life but the only thing you should reload for is accuracy not speed. What good is it if you have the fastest bullet in the world but can't hit what you are shooting at. | |||
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