PPE = personal protective equipment.

The handgun section is rather dead so I posted here.

What handgun will be the most suitable to carry concealed? And what sighting system?

Taking into consideration that it should be easily concealed, not visible under a coat, have numerous shots capability ( or additional clips ) and a sighting system that will allow fast accuracy ( including laser ) but not encumber fast unholstering nor create bulk.

Second question - what handgun would be the most suitable for airline pilots?

_________________________________

Kendall

My ol' gourd has just been churning essentially the same questions. Here's a bit of what my recent cogitations have come up with.

1. a revolver
If I get into a jackpot outside my home, have to shoot my way out, and have to boogety out o' there ASAP, I don't want to leave spent brass behind. Leaving identifiable bullets behind is bad enough.

2. small gun vs firepower
Taurus, my new favorite brand among modern revolvers, offers several very small, very light, easily concealable, very powerful "social" revolvers. I haven't totally eliminated the five-shot Taurus .44 Special snubby yet, but the one I bought for my own public wheelchair duty is the EIGHT-round, four-inch .357 Magnum.
I've designed and am making a cross-draw belt holster that'll make it easy to carry (and draw) in this wheelchair. Concealing it in the w'chair (e g, lap robe, draped towel, etc) will be easier than if I were walking about with a coat or jacket to cover it.

3. sight system
I you can't point-shoot accurately enough at ten feet or closer, (a) PRACTICE point-shooting until you can, or (b) forget about trying to defend yourself with a handgun. Sights and aiming take time, and you're already playing catch-up ball -- bottom of the ninth, two outs, several runs behind -- if you have to draw on some goon who's already into the process of killing or maiming you.
At distances where you'd have to aim with sights, the necessity of defending yourself with deadly force becomes much more questionable when (a) you have to decide whether to use deadly force and (b) you have to defend that choice in court.

[This message has been edited by Ken Howell (edited 09-22-2001).]

Kendall __

"Shooter's Choice" comes to mind. Whatever the individual "feels comfortable" with and can handle well. I've never been able to "feel right" with a Glock or some of the "tall" Smith's. The "minies" squirm around in my hand making a useful second shot all but impossible. A Browning Hi-Power and the archaic 1911 are like extensions of my arm, not something to be carried concealed under a T-shirt, but usable under bulkier clothing.

As for airline pilots, concealment is not a necessity. In fact, in-view is a deterrent. Of concern is the bullet; frangible being the best option. One wants to down the animal, not the passengers or the aircraft.

Good shooting.

Robert

" In fact, in-view is a deterrent."

As often or more often, it identifies whom a criminal must take out first so he can proceed with his crime in increased safety. Long before you're aware of his esistence (much less his intent), he's assessing the situation to decide his exact course. He sees that you're armed. You don't even know yet whether he's up to no good, let alone exactly what he's planning.

You're a sitting duck.

Glock. If there is a loaded magazine in the pistol, it will feed. If it feeds it will go bang. 'nuff said. Medium frame. .40. Wish it was a 10mm.

Shouldn't ever see the pilots. They should be locked in their room.

Star PD, Para Ordnance P12, Any of the small Colt 45 pistols. I carry a Colt 45 that has been chopped to smaller than a Star PD. It is loaded with any of the American JHP ammo around 200 grains. I dislike revolvers, as they jam too easily and are too fragile.

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Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

My personal protection gear consists of:
A cell phone (call first if you can)

The biggest folding knife I can carry without attracting too much attention

A scorpion streamlight (At night I like to see my target)

And finally, my trusty Lightweight Commander.
This is the same gun that I shoot IDPA\Speed Steel\Bowling Pins and once in a while IPSC.
It's fast, accurate and conceals fairly well. It is the only gun I own that feels like an extension of my arm.

That's my two cent's worth.
ZM

Since you asked for additional clips, I'll go away from the lightweight, hammerless revolver that would be my choice. But I will mention its merits.
Something like the old S&W AirLite Ti, in 38 Special. Yes, I would rather the caliber be stronger, and I will snatch up the first 40 Cal that comes out, that is less than 14 ounces like the Smith Ti was. However, with the new loads the 38 is not as bad in the stopping department as it use to be. Plus, with the amount I practice with my carry piece, I can nail the center of a target at 12 yards following a quick draw. "But I do practice often." Going for longer distance than that, say 25 yards is not really self defense distance.

Okay......that's said.

The auto. I really like a lot of autos, Glock 27/23, 1911 Baby Clones (such as the Kimber Custom carry), Sig's fine line of pistols.

But I would have to take the H&K USP Compact. One reason I take it over a Glock is the thumb safety, similar the 1911. It comes in a 9mm, 40SW & the 45ACP, which is a line up, in personal defense, not easily matched. It is reliable, tough, and if one cares, it is decent looking too. Small enough to carry easily, heavy enough to deal with recoil in any of the offered calibers. And as accurate as combat pistols come.

As to a caliber for a pilot. I'd want the big slug coming out of a 45. Maybe even making sure the load is a subsonic, which isn't hard to do with a 45.

The slower, larger slug doesn't over penetrate like the 9 has been known to do, thereby keeping passengers and the cabin itself safer. Still, even with this slower heavy round, even an inaccurate shot can knock an individual down, as has been proven by our military, especially the special forces.

Okay! Now, let's hope we don't have too many opportunities to find out just how well this would work.

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Live Free! Madison, Jefferson and all the boys paid for it, and so did our very own fathers.

I agree with Ken Howell on his point.If you're visibly armed,it simply tells the perp who to take out first{and needless to say,without warning}....thinking that you're safe because your weapon is visible is very naive....since I'm already here,I'll comment on one or two other things.The biggest mistakes I see whenever discussions like this come up is over reliance on firepower and the tendency to try and be cute and trendy in equipment choice.Keep it simple,practice in a realistic fashion and always bear in mind that the number one thing that will effect your survival chances when the balloon goes up is MINDSET.

I have carried concealed a M1911 for years. Point aim is the best second is a laser.

Todd E

William,
Don't waste your time with a laser sighted handgun. Our department has done tests that show you are slower at obtaining hits with a laser than with normal sights. I would recommend night sights and a compact or baby Glock. They will not rust, are absolutely reliable(one malfunction in probably 3000 rounds and this was shooting one handed and I had a case of limp wrist), and will feed anything that I have found so far.
Remember also that a 22 in your pocket is better than a cannon locked in your truck. I carry a Kel-Tec P32 in my pocket at ALL times.
Mindset is always the most important thing in self defense. Be aware of your surroundings, don't sit with your back to the door, and be able to reload and clear your weapon of any malfunction as if you were breathing.
Hope this helps,
Todd

Glock 23 with night sights dhould take care of close encounters of the nastiest kind. The 40 s&w is getting a enviable reputation.
And the Glock is a proven combat handgun and is fairly concealable.

I personally use a three gun battery depending on the expected circumstances I'm encountering and the clothes I'll be wearing.

1. North American Arms 5 shot .22 magnum derringer in the pocket almost always.

2. Walther PPK/S .380 with extra clip in the Uncle Mike's inside the pants holster covered with an untucked shirt.

3. Kimber custom classic .45 in a plain jane leather belt holster under a light or heavy jacket.

Concealed Carry permit in the wallet at all times, just in case!

mike

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Victory through superior firepower!

My carry piece is a pre-sellout S&W 49 Bodyguard, plus P rated. How good is it? Can't say. I haven't had a bad guy volunteer to find out.
FWIW, I have never had a revolver jam. I have had semi-autos jam though, although never a stock 1911A1. Custom jobs sometimes, but they got fixed to where they work. If my 1911 won't feed an empty case, I work on it till it does. I figure if it feeds an empty, it'll feed any load I put in it.
Pistols for pilots. Not a bad idea really, provided they get the training.
Forget about passengers flying out of the airplane due to decompression, should a bullet hole the fuselage. That's james Bond movie BS! If you knew how much air leaked out of a pressurized cabin under normal circumstances, you would not worry about it. If you want to feel safer, use one of the pre-fragmented rounds like magsafe. If I were a pilot,a good 1911 type set up to work flawlwssly with pre-fragmented ammo would be almost perfection personified. About the only time that might not work is if the perp had body armor. Thet's where two in the belly and one in the head comes into play.
FWIW. I worked in an ancillary position to aircraft operations, and was required to sit it on certain FAA lectures. The question of a bullet hole in the cabin area was discussed, which is where I got my information, so no flames please. Go to the source to find out what the skinny is on that.
Paul B.

Small of back or right hip: Glock 27

Backups
Left ankle: S&W Airlite
Left armpit: S&W 629 3"

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Good huntin', shootin', and spear chuckin',
RAB

When I got out of the Navy in 1953, the sheriff who issued me a carry permit said he had only one requirement -- that I ALWAYS carry CONCEALED. I was surprised, of course, since all I'd heard on the subject had implied that carrying concealed was somehow evil. (I've given that a lot of thought in the last forty-eight years but haven't been able to figure out anything evil inherent in concealed carry.)

The sheriff explained, and his reasons for his requirement still make as much good sense to me as they did forty-eight years ago --
Carrying concealed, he said, you won't
-- make "ordinary" people who see you unnecessarily nervous or afraid
-- be hassled or challenged by trouble-makers

He was right.
Carrying concealed, I've never been hassled, challenged, or shunned.
Carrying openly (required in some places), I've met with all three of the above at one time or another.

Many times since, especially when driving cross-country through the night and stopping at lonely gas stations, etc, in the wee, still hours, I've thought of that sheriff's sound thinking. I've compared, mentally, the contrasting inevitables IF I happened to be paying for my gas, say, when an armed goon came along just then to rob the place. Each time, it seemed terribly obvious to me who'd be most likely to stop the first bullet if I were carrying (a) openly or (b) concealed.
I can't imagine a logical scenario of an armed goon looking inside, seeing a citizen with a .44 or .45 obvious on his hip, and backing off to go find some other place to rob.
I don't believe that any person who's already decided to pull off a crime is ever that tentative about getting on with it. An airline hijacker (even less a terrorist), it seems to me, is worlds less likely to be tentative or deterred than a gas-station robber.

Call me old fashioned, but I feel real comfortable with my Gov't Model .45. I shoot it better than my 6in bbl 686. I loaded up a bunch of 230gr ball over some old Herco my Dad gave me and at 20 yards, it will give just a large 2 in hold after 14 rounds. Bomar sights, some trigger and slide/ramp work. Cobalt

For my personal sidearm, I carry a 10mm with low-profile combat sights in a right side pancake holster. I don't care about invisible carry - I've found the sight of a 6'6", 260lb armed white male has a strong deterrent effect - with or without my Fedora on.

In my vehicle I have a 2-inch barreled .357 +P in a seat holster - easy to get to.

For pilots, an old fashioned Air Force shoulder holster filled with a Model 5 or 6 4-inch barrel loaded w/.38 hollow points sounds about right.

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Heaven is that moment just before dawn when you're on your tree stand or your boat fishing

A 1911 clone in an inside the pants holster is surprisingly hidable. Something like a Milt Sparks Summer Special.

Or a S&W 638 .38spl Airweight Bodyguard. My dad has a 340PD in .357 that is very shootable.

Perhaps one of the Walther's. You can get one to fit your hand and, as it has been said above, a .22 or .380 with you is better than a cannon in the truck.

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It is not enough to fight for natural land and the west; it is even more important to enjoy it. While you can. While it's still there. So get out there and hunt and fish and mess around with your friends...Enjoy yourselves, keep your brain in your head and your head firmly attached to the body, the body active and alive, and I promise you this much: I promise you this one sweet victory over our enemies, over those deskbound men with their hearts in a safe-deposit box and their eyes hypnotized by desk calculators. I promise you this: you will outlive the bastards.

- Edward Abbey

When I was a DEA agent working undercover and absolute hideability was an issue, I finally settled for a S&W M-37 Chief Special tucked into my belt backwards on the right side (Mexican carry)...Ammo? plus p plus 125 gr..

When concealibility wasn't the last word I carried two guns only, a 9mm Browning Hi-power with Fed. plus p plus and a colt 45 commander with the big Fed. H.P., both had been worked over as to trigger and feedability..I still have these 3 guns....

I always liked the PPK 380 with Silvertips, but it doesn't lend itself to the Mexican carry, slips down the pants leg at the most inopertune times..

I never wore a holster, it just doesn't fit the job, no one did...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I have always carried a 1911 Gov't in a "mexican carry" position similar to that described by Ray. Front of the pants on the strong side with the butt of the gun facing out. Even the big 1911 is still concealable this way since it is a relatively thin weapon. Not as uncomfortable as you might think either. Obviously, this is not the best choice of carry positions for you Glock owners!

Re: Airline pilots . . . Didn't Air Marshalls in this country once carry highly modified/bobbed hammer .45 colt N Frame Smiths with frangible ammo (maybe Glaser)? Sound like just the ticket today too!

JohnTheGreek

Glock 27 or 23 in a Sidarmor IWB holster. It's simple, tough, and plenty accurate. These are the .40S&W variety - 9 is too small for serious all around defense (especially in cold weather where thick winter coats may inhibit penetration) and the 10mm and .45 are too much for most people in this small package.

As for airline pilots, I would lean towards a fullsize Glock M22 with law enforcement clips and 8LB triggers. They're just so simple and reliable. I doubt most pilots would dedicate the time to master a more complex weapon like the 1911's. They should DEFINITELY conceal their weapons in the cockpit and it should be accessible by all in the cockpit. Frangible bullets will be a must. There has been concern about pilots being able to negotiate "Shoot" & "No Shoot" situations. If they deadbolt the cockpit doors and anyone breeches the security of the cockpit - we are definitely in a "Shoot" situation. My 2 cents.

When clothes permit, a 1911 in a belt slide, Mexican carry. However, being rather small framed, and Texas winters being what they are.. Most of the time it's a Star Firestar in .40S&W (controls are EXACTLY like the 1911) in a Milt Sparks inside the pants rig. When it's too hot for anything more than a tee shirt, it's an AMT Backup in .380 in the boot top. Hate the .380, but it beats a sharp stick.

As for pilots-whatever they can shoot well!

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"A diffuse threat, like crime or terrorism, can only be thwarted by a diffuse defense..an armed populace" L. Neil Smith, 2001

Bill,

Amazed nobody mentioned it. Conceiled, a gov. .45 auto with the grips removed is easily conceiled even in tight fitting clothes. Its and old trick. If you can't hit 'em in seven rounds (stop holding it sideways like they do on TV and the movies), you can always throw it at the perp.

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� I will resist with my life the tyranny over men�s souls�
Patrick Henry

Hello,
One thing you forgot to mention is your budget. You know, all of the above are good choices depending on the person but some of them can cost upwards of a thousand bucks in my neck of the woods.

I firmly beleive that the Ruger pistols and revolvers are the best value on the market. Super strong and really well made. They do not seem to garner the gunwriter and movie armorer "sex appeal" that the Colts and Glocks do, but I never heard of a bad guy complaining that he was killed by a firearm from a value-minded manufacturer.

That said, check out the Ruger GP100 or the SP 101. I can find both used today for under 300. And I have heard nothing but good things about the GP100 and the 125 grain load.

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Safety & Ethics,Accuracy, Velocity, Energy
Joe M

Bill C.,

At one time the 9mm was inferior, but I suggest that you read Sadowskis book, Handgun Stopping Power, based on 30 years of investigated police shootings wherein history shows that with the Border Patrol plus p plus it showed a one shot kill ratios higher than any round except the Federals 125 gr. plus p plus 357 Mag....

I have seen what this round will do and I assure you it is a fight stopper...check it out.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I have found the Ruger GP-100 (I own one) and the SP-101 have one real annoying problem. The cylinder release latch is retained by a screw that tends to back out under heavy recoil. With that in mind, I purchased a Smith & Wesson 640. It is a concealable package, good caliber and a totally concealed hammer.

Stans....The cylinder latch retaining screw on the rugers is supposed to be staked into place.It sounds as though someone missed this step.Once this is done,you should have no further problems with it backing out.

Use a Kahr .40 covert.No safety to mess with and use velcro or boot carry. 185 gr hps at 1050 from very small gun with minimun recoil for fast followup if needed.

The most reliable 45 ACP on the market.

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LSF/375

In no particular order,

Kahr Arms (all models)
H&K USP Compact
Glock 19/23
Ruger SP101 (not the .22)
Ruger GP100 3"
S&W 940
S&W 681
S&W 696
any other pre-agreement S&W revolver with barrel 4" or under .38 and up or
S&W medium frame 9mm or 40
Beretta 92c and 92m variants
1911's of good quality esp. commander size and under
Sig's (not sigpro)
Browning Hi-Power

Anything else that is concealable for you, is more powerful than a 32 magnum, fires every time you pull the trigger and is accurate enough at 10-15 meters.

DOC

Glock sux. It's too damned fat, fat trigger guard makes it even fatter and hard to stow.

I carry a Springfield UltraComact under a T-shirt all the time. Galco Scout IWB in a decent, 1 3/4" tactical gun belt. I can bend over backwards with this rig, stick out my stomach and the gun still doesn't print.

Other choice is the Mod. 60 S&W snubby -- .357 magnum. I bobbed the hammer on mine. Hammer pokes me in the belly. Single action use is marginal . . . If I have time to cock it, I have time to think about the shot. If I have time to think about the shot, then I don't want a cocked, single action style gun in my pausing but nervous hand.

Sights . . . Novaks low profile on the 1911, night sights. They look really cool sitting on the desk, glowing in the dark. But I question their usefulness in a defensive shoot. For tactical application they are nice . . . like a shoot-out in low light where I'm placing shots.

But most defensive shooting is low light at less than 7 yds. That's point and bang stuff.

Airline pilots . . . 45 ACP . . . frangible, special application ammo. I'd want the biggest bullet I could push down the tube if it's going to disintegrate on impact. Big hole to start with and big "splat" from a big bullet. For airline use, I'd want something with the option of aiming precisely. Also, a fine trigger and decent ammo capacity. That's a 1911 and some magazines. Glock trigger won't allow for precision shooting. (We're talking head-shots at the other end of the plane . . . not IPSC bangers.)

Someone above posted that revolvers jam. Jeez! That's news to me! NEVER have had a revolver jam. Must be a lot of really funky, out of tune revolvers in his neighborhood.

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PowderBurns Black Powder / Muzzle Loading Forum:

www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=powderburns

My comment about revolvers that jam is based on 25 years of fixing handguns that go wrong. Some examples: Shooter arrives at the range with a Dan Wesson 357 Maximum. As he removes it from the trunk of the car, it slides out of the unzipped caddy and falls about two feet, flat on its left side in soft earth. He could not get it to go and had to strip it down completely for washing. A competitor puts his shooting gear and caddy containing a Star 45 and ammo on the ground behind his buddy's car and goes off to help take down some targets. His buddy approaches the car from the front, and backs it over the pistol. It suffered a cracked grip, but was otherwise fully functional. A homeowner gets up to check on a noise in the house. The intruder surprises him from behind and as he spins around, he bangs the cylinder of the Ruger Speed Six against the door frame, bending the cylinder pin sufficiently to freeze the cylinder. Similar scenario but in the ensuing fight a Browning HP is thrown through a window, kicked across a porch and into a flower bed. The next morning it is retrieved, brought to my shop and after checking for obstruction of the barrel, fires every shot in the mag flawlessly. Bikers who fall off their bikes regularly take their handguns to be checked. Revolvers tend to stop working, pistols tend to keep working. Perfectly maintained handguns will work reliably whether they are round guns or flat guns. Unfortunately fighting sometimes gets rough and dirty and pistols deal better with that than revolvers. Anything that prevents the cylinder from turning, renders the revolver useless for a first shot. I have never seen a cocked and locked pistol fail to fire at least one shot.

The type of concealed weapon one carries is dictated by the potential threat the person expects and the circumstances in which they are operating.

My favorite carry piece for the longest while was an airweight centenial which I adopted because of its light weight and concealability. I would carry it, not leave it at home. It was displaced for the job by a Beretta .32 auto, which is even smaller, although slightly heavier. The flatness of the Beretta is its forte. I am not looking for speed or power, but stealth and having it with me.

When in the woods, my favorite carry gun is a Model 66 S&W with fixed sights and a 3.5" barrel. It is heavy, but packs well; offers snake load capability; and with full house loads is very capable. I have a matte finish, plated Model 36 with 3" barrel that I carry sometimes when I want to use a belt holster with something a little lighter. Both guns have a similar feel.

If I were a sworn officer or really expected trouble, I'd carry my Glock 23 or my Clark combat commander. I carry two mags for the .45 and one spare for the Glock. I like both pistols. Each has its positive features, and I consider them equal.

I agree with Ken about point shooting. I practiced with the .22 twin of the Mod 36 until I could draw and consistently center hit with two shots in a silhoette target. When I could do that reliably, I shifted to using the .38. When on my game, I can put two shots on target closer than with aiming. After that, I got my self some steel knockdown targets about 6x6", and practiced drawing and "running" those. It is a great drill for sight and trigger control.

I think the 1911 or Glock would be good for sky marshalls or pilots. The trick here is going to be the loads, and I understand that the "experts" say frangible and talk about speacial "sintered" loads. Hi-tech, and beyond me. Ku-dude

...I rarely am in uniform anymore (getting old), but am still a sworn officer. So, I try to make it a continuing habit to have a "mouse gun" (a .25) in my pocket whenever I go out. Certainly not the best choice, but certainly the least obvious and still not be a gimmick-gun. As cooler weather settles in, the selection shifts to a S&W Model 60 stuffed with Remington 200-grainers (they turn sideways as they penetrate), and in the winter a Charter Bulldog full of .44 Special Gold Dots or the R.A.P. Model 401 stuffed with +P+ 9mm Gold Dots. Each has been chosen for pointability and handling qualities in my hands, as well as reliability, and in some circumstances may be disregarded in favor of other alternatives.