Just how many shots can a modern firearm action withstand before failure? I mean at 'excessive' pressure!

So how many shots of 308 Win @ 85,000 psi do you think a:

1.) M70 Classic can withstand.

2.) FAL battle rifle can withstand.

3.) Ruger No. 1 can withstand.

4. SMLE can withstand.

Will the answer be in the single digits, double digits, triple digits, a whole lot more?

Second question. How many of you have actually fired multiple shots of overloaded ammunition, say 308 Win @ ~ 85,000 psi?

ASS_CLOWN

AC, I don't think a brass case can take 85,000 psi (piezo) without blowing the primer pocket and making it unuseable for a second reloading - I would think 75,000 psi would be the maximum for most modern cartridges.

But, folks posting here toss around all kinds of PSIs, CUPs, etc. Perfect conversion between the two is difficult, although the two correlate (~80%).

PO Ackley claimed pocket failure at ~65,000, but he must have been using CUP in his day. For most modern cartridges that likely translates into 75,000 psi piezo - but, does this work for the straight-walled Ackley Improved cases? I don't know. Yet, straight-walled cases tend to show equivalency between CUP and Piezo measurements.

For discussion purposes, let's assume that we can load 308s at 70,000 psi piezo without blowing too many primers (i.e., there will be deviation between firings). That being so, I'd bet you could shoot 100,000 rounds through a M70 .

AIU,

There are several case designs which can be taken to or past 85,000 psi before they ultimately fail.

quote:

For discussion purposes, let's assume that we can load 308s at 70,000 psi piezo without blowing too many primers (i.e., there will be deviation between firings). That being so, I'd bet you could shoot 100,000 rounds through a M70

Interesting comment. What stress do you estimate the M70's action is operating at with those 70 ksi loads, which is resulting in a fatigue life of 100,000 firings?

ASS_CLOWN

BTT,

No comments? I am shocked! With so many experts posting here on this forum I was sure that I would be educated, and in short order.

ASS_CLOWN

i don't know haow many, but I'd like to watch .......from a distance

I'm not sure how many rounds it would take but I think they would fail (start seeing serious problems) in this order:
SMLE
FAL
M70
Ruger #1

Hello,
The answer to your question is available for some of the models/brands you indicated, but why would anyone dare publish the answer?? Reason it will not be stated is that sure enough, someone would be sure and try it!! Check w/ Rem. or Win. and am sure that they will not even discuss the "blue pill" test load and it's pressures for again, some might like to pretend they were conducting tests and all of that has been done and recorded.
Favor Center!!
dsiteman

quote:

Originally posted by ASS_CLOWN:
Just how many shots can a modern firearm action withstand before failure? I mean at 'excessive' pressure!

So how many shots of 308 Win @ 85,000 psi do you think a:

1.) M70 Classic can withstand.

2.) FAL battle rifle can withstand.

3.) Ruger No. 1 can withstand.

4. SMLE can withstand.

Will the answer be in the single digits, double digits, triple digits, a whole lot more?

Second question. How many of you have actually fired multiple shots of overloaded ammunition, say 308 Win @ ~ 85,000 psi?

ASS_CLOWN

This has to be what goes thru the mind of someone with TOOOO MUCH time on their hands....

Sort of reminds me on my son when he was about 5 asked me " How Much Does Canada Weigh?"


seafire

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

This has to be what goes thru the mind of someone with TOOOO MUCH time on their hands....

Sort of reminds me on my son when he was about 5 asked me " How Much Does Canada Weigh?"


seafire

LOL

I'm kinda thinking this is a dualing multiple personality thread, call suspicious

Current Mod 70: between 10&100X's
FAL: between 10 & 100X's
Ruger #1: Between 10 and 100X'x
SMLE: Between 100 & 500X's

Ackley tested to destruction several WWII battle rifles. The most indestructible was the Japanese rifle and the next most indestructible was the SMLE. I suspect the Japanese rifle would run between 100 & 1000x's. I think that the H&K G3 with it roller bearing lock-up would be between 100 and 1000.

ASS CLOWN

You furnish me with the rifle of your choice. I'll furnish the brass, bullets, powder, and primers. I'll let you know how it goes and post the results here. When I'm done I'll return your rifle prepaid to your doorstep.

Right click on the clowns photo by his signature, save it to your desktop. Doubleclick to open it and tell me what he's holding in his hands.

I think the "ASS CLOWN" name fits!!! GHD

I would have thought that the answer's bloody obvious - if the pressure is excessive, you'll be able to fire one shot. After that, you won't have a rifle.

I always ask myself, what and who does this action benefit?

no one...
none...
makes AC have a silly post that he can say "nuh-uh" to when someone says "X"


Or, from a pracitical POV, anyone answering this with a NUMBER would then be liable for someone BLOWING UP their gun/selves as "so and so said it could take Y rounds, and it blew up on the first 1"

The (sane) answer, to all actions for EXCESSIVE pressure is ZERO.. NEVER try this.

jeffe

Yep I shot one round of 150-180,000 psi
and don't plan on any more.In my 77.And I
didn't plan on that one either.Testing to destruction might be interesting, but
lots of money and powder involved.Ed.

A 85,000 psi load in a 308 is only a 37% over load. I would hope that a modern rifle would have a saftey margin great enough to fire a few hundred of them.

We often tell new posters there is no such thing as a "stupid question". I do believe though that there are immaterial ones that no one is interested in knowing or finding out the answer to as the result is obvious.
We don`t care how hot a flame has to be to char our skin and most sane people aren`t going to stick their finger in one to find out, we just know it will happen and avoid it.
The fact a gun will fail at X amount of overloads isn`t relevent or determinable to the majority of shooters. The equipment needed to find the answer isn`t available to 99.999% of the people, and means no more to most then at what speed will a seat belt fail if you run into a brick wall. The end result`s the same in both cases, you know (what) it will happen and if you can`t control it you`re silly to try it.

I've had a couple instances in my lifetime where the pressures caused the brass to flow....certainly unsafe and certainly not something to condone.
One of these occasions was with a M-70 push feed and the other was with a Rem 700. Both actions survived superbly and I went to shooting after clearing the (nearly) melted brass from the gun. While I didn't measure anything the guns functioned well and without issue.....assumadebly there was no change in the barrel or action.

At 85,000 PSI we have to be close to melting the case and when we do that we're going to have serious trouble.....if one can confine the pressure to 85,000 (as many ackley improved shooters do and won't admit it) possibly the longivity might be surprising but I won't venture a number. In any respect it's not a practice anyone I know would recommend nor can I find a reason to do so.

I think there was a guy a few years back that posted a pic of a blown up rifle. He'd loaded pistol powder instead of rifle powder. I remember I was able to run the load on "quickload" and I think it came up with a pressure of about 125,000 to 150,000. So FWIW if anyone knows of a blown rifle and the load that did it we can get an estimate from quickload. Only thing is you don't know how worn the rifle was before that load did the final "do in".

quote:

Originally posted by Latigo:
Right click on the clowns photo by his signature, save it to your desktop. Doubleclick to open it and tell me what he's holding in his hands.

About 35 years ago, a research laboratory received a contract to research the potential damage that would be caused to the skin of spacecraft by the impact of tiny, high speed particals in space. I have a clear recollection of the magazine artical about it, published in one of the popular gun rags of the time.

The researchers used an off-the-shelf Remington 700 chambered for .22-250 as their lauch platform. They loaded the .22-250 cases full of Bullseye and used a small nylon bullet of around 7 grains weight for the projectile. Every shot would blow the brass and lock the bolt, which they simply hammered open to load with a fresh cartridge. This went on for hundreds of rounds until they completely shot the riflings out, then they rebarreled with a smooth bore barrel and went on for hundreds more shots.

The rifle's action was unaffected. I have no idea what the chamber pressures were running, but at one shot per case, I assume them to have been significant.

AC, I just read the initial post and had to say that I shot about fifty "Way tooHOt" loads through my .458 Lott. Until I popped a few primers. I thought it was kicking a little too hard. Leaving work now, will read and comment more tomorrow.

quote:

Originally posted by ASS_CLOWN:
Just how many shots can a modern firearm action withstand before failure? I mean at 'excessive' pressure!

So how many shots of 308 Win @ 85,000 psi do you think a:

1.) M70 Classic can withstand.

2.) FAL battle rifle can withstand.

3.) Ruger No. 1 can withstand.

4. SMLE can withstand.


Second question. How many of you have actually fired multiple shots of overloaded ammunition, say 308 Win @ ~ 85,000 psi?

ASS_CLOWN

A.C.
IF you will let me modify this to the maximum pressure just before the primer leaks I will take a "wild" and a broad leeway guess on it as it seems no one wants to talk as much about the answer as they do the question.

1.) Model 70 Classic over 50,000 rounds

2.) FAL feeding from the clip less than 10,000 (unless you have extraction trouble before that) I think it would "beat" up long before blowup.

3. ) Ruger #1 over 100,000 rounds

4. ) SMLE less than 1000 rounds. This old girl could surprise us though..........

Long ago I would say yes to your second question but I have learned to stay out of that territory over the years........

Are you going to run this test to get the "exact" answer?

BigRx

So what are the failure modes of the M70, FAL, Ruger No1, and SMLE from shooting these overly high pressure rounds? Are they all the same, different?

What is the stress level in the firearms that is leading to these failures?

ASS_CLOWN

.

quote:

Originally posted by ASS_CLOWN:
So what are the failure modes of the M70, FAL, Ruger No1, and SMLE from shooting these overly high pressure rounds? Are they all the same, different?

What is the stress level in the firearms that is leading to these failures?

ASS_CLOWN

They disintegrate... rather quickly...

C'mon, tell us what you already know...

To agree with some of the others here....

I don't know and don't care. The only thing I do know, is after 25+ years of reloading, I don't exceed recommended max loads and never will. Most of my loads are moderate and have never heard a game animal complain that my load was too light.

Aksing questions like this indicates to me that there may me a yearning to push the limits of a firearm to the point to where you may never be able to shoot again.

It's best left to the experts that have tested the loads in particular firearms and heed their advise.

Good shooting.

This thread has been rather entertaining.

rugeruser,

quote:

They disintegrate... rather quickly...

Don't tell all those Ackley Improved users out there that! I think you would be surprised.

Pressure measurements made on a 30-30 and 30-30 AI, both pushing a 170 gr bullet at ~ 2300 fps. The average peak pressures were within 1000 psi of each other, statistically speaking a wash! Both by the way were WAY over the SAAMI max. The AI rifle has shot ~ 1000 rounds.

I know of lots and lots of people that routinely overload their rifles. Overload meaning simply that they hand load their rifles far above SAAMI max pressures. These are belted magnums, AI, simple old '06s, etc, etc. I am guilty of it too, 405 Winnie and 416 Rigby immediately come to mind (45-70 and 45-90 too).

I asked this question for the benefit of the individual that seem to TRULY believe that you can get something for nothing (Ackley Improved Cartridges, 150 fps improvement over factory loads simply by handloading, etc).

Still like to see if anyone besides Alf, knows what the failure modes are (I know Alf knows how a Mauser style action gives way, actually something else besides the case has to fail before the action goes too, hint hint). Also, any guesses as to the stress levels involved? Anyone wanna guess how long the rifle can last at those stress levels?

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:
I would have thought that the answer's bloody obvious - if the pressure is excessive, you'll be able to fire one shot. After that, you won't have a rifle.

I love the down to earth sensible wisdom of Aussies.

Kind of like assclown asking " if I put a gun to my head and pulled the trigger, how many shots to the head do you think I can take before it hurts?"

Ass Clown is a good example of why people outside the United States, think people inside the United States are a bunch of idiots. It is people like that that give Al Quida that morning motivation to get up and do what they are doing. After all from their prospective, they are attacking a nation of morons.

cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:
I would have thought that the answer's bloody obvious - if the pressure is excessive, you'll be able to fire one shot. After that, you won't have a rifle.

I love the down to earth sensible wisdom of Aussies.

Kind of like assclown asking " if I put a gun to my head and pulled the trigger, how many shots to the head do you think I can take before it hurts?"

Ass Clown is a good example of why people outside the United States, think people inside the United States are a bunch of idiots. It is people like that that give Al Quida that morning motivation to get up and do what they are doing. After all from their prospective, they are attacking a nation of morons.

cheers
seafire

Seafire, thanks for the compliment...

Yeah, we do tend to pretty pragmatic, but I doubt we think that all you guys are morons!

A bottle of Jack Black in one hand, and a rifle in the other......

He's ready to test the limits of failure for at least one manufacturer.

Ass Clown..........

Yes, the moniker does seem so fitting.

Fatigue, fatigue, fatigue. I keep hearing that phrase, I keep getting more fatigued. Like hypnosis?

Has anybody here actually seen fatigue evidence in cases of catastrophic failure, or is it assumed? Show me. I know what it is, and I know what it looks like. Show me your evidence.

HEY ASS-CLOWN,
Can't get hold of you via PM....saw a post with you having a RUGER RSM in 500 Jeffrey. Just wanted to know how many rounds the magazine will take and if you knew who did the rebore?

quote:

Originally posted by fordnutter:
HEY ASS-CLOWN,
Can't get hold of you via PM....saw a post with you having a RUGER RSM in 500 Jeffrey. Just wanted to know how many rounds the magazine will take and if you knew who did the rebore?

fordnutter,

ASS CLOWN descibes himself perfectly, a troll moron. 99.9% of anything he has posted or will post here is pure bullshit.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
They loaded the .22-250 cases full of Bullseye and used a small nylon bullet of around 7 grains weight for the projectile. Every shot would blow the brass and lock the bolt, which they simply hammered open to load with a fresh cartridge.

This really made me grin. I hope they worked up to that load!

A question I have is would you see excessive headspace develop before a catastrophic failure? Of course using a case gauge to measure and not just measuring OAL.