Thanks 303

Interesting, but I would have to say that avoiding having the base of the bullet touch the powder is not the reason this guy shoots 8" - 1000 yard groups.

It can't be avoided; when a cartridge is chambered it is horizontal and the powder touches the bullet.

I bet the reason he shoots such nice groups is more due to the rifle's capability, his capability and the loading techniques the guys here are talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
So while seating, slip the comparator over the bullet and measure each round's base to ogive measurement and make adjustments for each round to insure the optimal length is exactly the same for every shell?

With your Redding competition die you have ordered
as long as the tip is not making contact(usually it should not),
it is highly unlikely you will need vary the die with every round.

Cool,

Does the die seat by the ogive?

The RCBS seater seats by the bullet tip I think.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Cool,
Does the die seat by the ogive?

Hopefully

(It is supposed to)

"We have designed the seat stem in our Competition Seating Die to contact the bullet ogive as far down as possible."

http://www.redding-reloading.c...ges/seatingdepth.htm

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Yes,

The successful long range shooters have single digit ES.
Butch

I think you mean SD, not ES. I have never, seen ES in the single digits for a magnum case. It may be possible, I just have never seen it. SD yes, I have achieved that many times.

Well you need to watch me shoot over the Oehler 35 sometime... I do go to great pains in the prep stage as well as the load stage but I would say a 6.5x284 close but the Warp 7 which starts out as a 300 Win before being necked down and fire formed is a magnum. Both of those have ES of single digits. The 338 Slowpoke which is a 338 Lapua Improved I have only gotten it down to 14 ES for 5 shots most of the time it is 20 to 25fps ES.

Also, the softness of the brass has a lot to do with bullet release. I am thinking about annealing after every shooting.

When we are talking about the ogive it is often forgotten that the comparator or the seating stem necessarily has a smaller diameter than the caliber of the bullet. That means that there is some distance between where the comparator hits and where the bullet reaches caliber diameter. There could also be variance there. However the lands of the bullet are smaller than caliber diameter and largely make up for this.

Weigh bullets, weigh brass. Next thing I would ask is, "Are you using Benchrest Primers or mag benchrest primers? If you are looking for uniformity that would be my first step. Every rifle round I load, I load with a BR primer reg or mag.

I know I'm chiming in a little late.
I have been shooting 1000yrd matches for quite some time, and it sounds like you have a good load there. The easiest method of fine tuning that load is to alter your seating depth up or down until the vertical dispersion dissipates at 1000yrds.

I always use the ladder method, because it gives you a larger window from where the bullets exit when the barrel is at rest in it's whip, this may occur in as much as a +/-3gr window in cartridges the size of the 300WinMag. Which is what I use BTW.
I get my best results with RE25 absolutely flat out, not over pressure mind you, but as fast as I dare push it. I'm also using 200gr Nosler Accubonds, I get SD's of single digits and velocities averaging just under 3000fps in a 28" barrel.
I use Fed215 primers, WLRM primers are a little hotter but much softer.
Using a 5 shot group to obtain SD's,ES's and averages is a fools game, it takes at least 10 shots to get meaningful data for 1000yrd comp, and 3 10 shot groups is best to determine vertical dispersion to coincide with the chronograph results. It amazes me that people think that 5 shots will tell them anything statistically?
Hope this helps.

It helps a lot, thanks 416 and everybody else who has shared help.

Rusty, I'm using Winchester primers WLR. I'm going to try the WLRM. With the way things are in the component world, I'm happy to have ANY primers to try!

I think the Redding Competition seater will alleviate some problems. I think I'll go to a bushing sizer die as well to get the .003" grip Woods was talking about. How do you determine which bushings you need? Measure a loaded round at the neck? Is a dial caliper accurate enough or do you need a micrometer?

I'll definitely try different seating depths at longer ranges to get rid of the vertical

In forty + years of reloading (38 years as the owner of a chronograph) I have found the factor that most influences extreme spread and standard deviation is the powder. Very slow, single base powders like IMR 7828 which end up with loading densities near 100% usually provide the lowest spreads. Double base powders nearly always have higher spreads. Monkeying with your case prep, primer, phase of the moon, etc., won't make that much difference.

That said, even in 1000 yard shooting, a maximum velocity spread of 50 fps (+ or - 25 fps) is typically irrelavant. The slower velocity loads stay in the barrel a bit longer, thus there is more influence from recoil on them, thus they tend to strike a bit higher, not lower as would seem logical, than the higher velocity loads. This can vary with the individual harmonics of barrels, but when you have an accurate load, no matter what the velocity spread, you have hit the sweet spot where the recoil/harmonics tend to compensate for the velocity differences.

If you want to work up a new load using IMR 7828, then you can probably cut your velocity spread in half. But it may or may not group as well.

Yeah, measure a loaded round neck with your calipers. For example if you get a measurement of .338" then that would mean you have a total thickness of .030" over the .308" caliber with a one side neck thickness of .015".

You would order a bushing size .003" smaller than that measurement or i.e. a .335" bushing. Best to get one on either side to allow for some springback. After sizing with the bushing you may get .002" grip after springback.

Check your neck thickness variations because if you get the bushing die then that will push any inconsistancies to the inside of the neck and you have another bullet grip problem.

Thanks Stonecreek, Woods.

I just read the Redding website on choosing the correct bushing................

I bought 16 #'s of the powder after I thought I had "the load" so, I won't change unless all else fails..........

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
In forty + years of reloading (38 years as the owner of a chronograph) I have found the factor that most influences extreme spread and standard deviation is the powder. Very slow, single base powders like IMR 7828 which end up with loading densities near 100% usually provide the lowest spreads. Double base powders nearly always have higher spreads. Monkeying with your case prep, primer, phase of the moon, etc., won't make that much difference.

Stoneypoint is correct. An appropriate match bullet at 3000 fps will be effected by less than 1/3 moa based on vertical stinging from an ES of 50 fps. Also you don't tell us how many rounds the 50 fps ES was based on; 3, 5 10 or 20? If it is 3 - 5 rounds then the actual ES for a 10 shot string will probably be higher. I'd also suggest going to a single based powder that gives close to 100% loading density. Actually test with the number of shots in a match string. Also be advised that the actual ES of any string will vary even with the same load. A 10 shot string will give you a pretty good idea but a 20 shot string of a particular load will give a much better idea of the SD/ES. One other piece of advise; shoot the test strings at the same tempo as the match strings are shot at.

Larry Gibson

10-4

Hey R, Don't let SD/ES drive you crazy. Focus on the Groups at distance. You can wear the barrel out fretting over SD/ES when the "point" is small groups.

Your chances of small groups with low SD/ES are enhanced, but the groups can tell you more about what you actually want to know than all the chronograph readings ever taken.

1. Use fully Match Prepped, Weight-Sorted Cases(Brand is less significant than about anything else), Benchrest Primers, and Match Grade Bullets.
2. Put a HUGE Power scope on your rifle. Don't forget to Adjust the Parallex(voice of experience ).
3. Develop and practice a solid Benchrest style shooting position.
4. Have your Trigger adjusted so you do not know when it will release.
5. Shoot a Remington or a Savage. Skip over all the rest. Wait on having a Match Grade Barrel installed.
6. Follow the never improved upon Creighton Audette Method at 300yds or 500yds.
7. Find the best Harmonic.
8. Fine Tune the Load by varying the Seating Depth.
9. Leave the chronograph at home - it wastes more time and bullets than most folks have time to spend looking for excellent Groups.
10. Get lots of Trigger Time and the Groups will magically shrink.
11. Wear out 2-3 barrels and by then you should be shooting some right fine l-o-n-g distance Groups.
12. Oh yes, don't get FAT(like some of us). Work to keep your Heart Beat as low as possible with cardio exercise or martial arts. Eliminate all of the "...ines"(Caffine, Nicotine, Alcohol-tine, High FAT Food-tine, etc.)
13. Smile at good Groups, think about what caused a Flier and eliminate it.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

Thanks for your input HC

I've got some more information that I'd like to get out there and garner some more input....

I took the loaded ammo in question (New Nosler brass with the load that was developed in fired Winchester brass) and borrowed a buddy's concentricity gage. The bullets had all kind of runout. .002 was the best and .006 was the worst.

I went to our club's regular F-Class shoot yesterday to take advantage of a guy pulling and marking targets for me and shot 61 rounds. We shot at 800, 900, and 1000. I was pretty surprised how well they shot considering the runout and another problem I'll detail here later.

The impacts didn't have a lot of vertical dispersion as I had noticed earlier and was concerned about eliminating with the extreme velocity spread problem. I think I have isolated the problem:

1. Runout. I was told by one of the best shooters that it has to be kept to less than 1/2 a thousandth

2. The New Nosler brass created a headspace problem. I noticed a lot of primer flattening that wasn't there with the same load in the Winchester brass. According to the Nosler manual, excessive headspace causes this and misleads reloaders into thinking they have pressure problems.

So I'm hoping that now that the brass has been fired the headspace problem will be solved.

I've got a Redding Competition seater coming and hope it will help eliminated the runout.

I'm also going to re-work the load in hopes of finding an accuracy node closer to max. I'm about 3 grains under max right now and with the 168 gr bullet am only getting around 3015 fps. I think that's too slow for the .300 WM's capability. Heck, with my hunting gun, I'm getting 3100 with the 180.

Thoughts?

Hey man, These other guys will have to help you on the Run-Out. Since I P-FLR, I never measure for it, nor do I worry about it.

However, there is as much chance of the democrats giving everyone a Tax Reduction as there is "anyone" being able to keep Run-Out to 0.0005" on a group of Cases. The guy had to be pulling your leg, or is as full of beans as bobby tomek and teanScum.
-----

I'll guess you did not "Fire Form" the Nosler Cases. So, they probably did have some excess HeadSpace. They have to be shipped on the small side so they will fit all chambers. Doesn't make them bad or unique, just means that Fire Forming, or Necking-Up and then P-FLRing will eliminate it.

Best of luck to you on your Loads. It often takes wearing out a few barrels to get real good at distance.

Hot Core,
They do make a tool to straighten your loaded round to "O" runout. I do not use one as I have greater problems than .0005 runout.
Butch

rc

You are not going to get rid of that runout until you get rid of that expanding ball die unless you get real lucky and have one that is already producing straight ammo or kraky comes along and tells you how to tweak it (PITA).

Get a Lee Collet Neck Sizer and that will solve 90% of your runout problem. Are you measuring "Total Indicated Runout" or are you dividing by 2 and talking about actual runout? Are you measuring runout on the case neck or on the ogive of the loaded bullet?

HC is right about not worrying too much about accuracy with new case (although it can happen) cause everything is going to change after fireforming anyway. HC is wrong in thinking that PFLR'ing will eliminate runout. In a factory chamber with a lot of neck clearance you could have a PFLR'ed case that fit the chamber exactly and still have a case neck that is seriously off center or canted.

You need to PFLR and reduce runout.

I thought we were working on ES velocity!

Thanks woods,

Yes, I guess what I measured was total indicated runout at the ogive. If you are supposed to divide that by 2 then the best loads were at .001" and the rest ranged up to .003"

I have not been using the expander ball when resizing and I only PFLR as well.

We were working on the ES! Everybody indicated that these things can effect it. I think the reason the gun is scattering them around is because of the new brass and the runout. I'm going back to the development stage and starting over with magnum primers trying to find an accuracy node with a little more velocity..........

Do you think my standard RCBS sizer die will do? I'm going to size a case and measure the neck to see how much bullet grip it gives. If it's too much, I'll order the bushing neck sizer to go with the competition seater I got today...........

If you are using an RCBS FL die without the expander then it is quite likely that you have too much bullet grip. It can create excessive seating force which will cause runout.

It is possible to use a FL die sans expander if you outside neck turn. Then you can see what the internal die dimensions are at the neck and turn your brass down to the thickness you need to get a certain bullet grip. For example if your die sizes the neck OD down to .331" then you would need to turn the brass down to .013" to get .003" bullet grip

.331"+.003"=.334"-.308"=.026"/2=.013"

and you can make very straight ammo that way.

However if you are using a FL die sans expander and do not outside neck turn, then you are pushing all the neck thickness variations to the inside of the neck, where they can have ill effects on bullet grip and runout.

Same principle with the bushing neck sizers. The bushing will size the OD of the neck down to the bushing size and it will push all the neck thickness variations to the inside of the neck. Again, outside neck turning makes the bushing dies sing, bad brass and no outside neck turning makes the bushing dies suck.

By contrast the Lee Collet Neck Sizer sizes the neck onto a mandrel so all the neck variations stay on the outside of the neck. With the floating mandrel it will not push the neck to one side or the other.

I have already neck turned the brass and interestingly enough, the diameter of my loaded round is exactly what your example numbers state, .334"

I guess my neck thickness is then .013"

Maybe the standard sizer will work.. the number I'm looking for is .331" when the brass is sized at the neck?

Yes, unless you want .002" bullet grip then you would try to turn the necks to get .332" sized neck OD. It is often hard to turn to a tolerance of .0005" so turning to .0135" is a touch and go type of thing.

.002" is about as much as the brass will hold even if you have a heavier bullet grip. IOW, I did a test where I used different sized mandrels down to .004" bullet grip and the internal size of the neck always returned to .001" under caliber size. Using pin gauges:

quote:

mandrel size / # fired case / sized case pin size / pulled bullet pin size
.262" mandrel / 5 times fired / .263" / .263"
.262" mandrel / 1 time fired / .262" / .263"
------------------------------------------------
.261" mandrel / 5 times fired / .261" / .263"
.261" mandrel / 1 time fired / .261" / .263"
------------------------------------------------
.260" mandrel / 5 times fired / .260" / .263"
.260" mandrel / 5 times fired / .260" / .263"

That tells me that the brass has a certain amount of springback and elasticity and a heavier bullet grip just stretches the brass. Wish I had a way to measure bullet pulling force.

If you have an ES of 50fps, it will give you 10" of vertical at 1000yds.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Hot Core,
They do make a tool to straighten your loaded round to "O" runout. I do not use one as I have greater problems than .0005 runout.
Butch

Hey Butch, I've seen someone mention that Thingy before on here. Maybe a "Bernson Tool", but the spellin' is questionable.

We used to have a guy post here as Reloader who drilled a hole in his Bench and used it to straighten Run-Out. I think he mentioned it only took a couple of Cartridges to develop a "feel" for how much to deflect the Case Neck to reduce the Run-Out. Reloader took up Noodlin'(catching catfish with his hands underwater) and I've not seen him post since. Maybe a BIGUN got him.
-----

I think my buddy, the esteemed Mr. Woods, misunderstood my post when he said, "HC is wrong in thinking that PFLR'ing will eliminate runout." Or, in his defense, if that is the impression I left, it was unintentional.

I do not know if any of my Cartridges have Run-Out. I've never measured for it. I do know for sure that by using a proper P-FLR, I have always been able to shoot small groups as far out as care to shoot. This distance does get shorter each decade due to reduced Trigger Time.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
Wish I had a way to measure bullet pulling force.

Smells like a new Thingy to me.

What would keep you from using a Collet type Bullet Puller to grip the Bullet and then hang weight on the end of the Press handle? A simple hanger could be made similar to the old mechanical Scales that hangs straight down from the end of the handle to stack the Weights on.

You could fabricate and off-set rod with a platform on top of it that goes into the hole the Handle goes in. Then simply stack Weight on the Platform until the Case releases the Bullet.

It would take a slight bit of Math to convert the Weight for the length of the Moment Arm and the amount of Compound Leverage designed into the Press if you wanted it exact. But even a "Relative" value would let you know the difference between Tight and Loose Case Necks.
-----

Might be able to come up with a Pneumatic or Hydraulic Thingy that could be powered with a 15kw Generac!

Except with a collet puller you push up on the ram to pull the bullet. The press lever is almost vertical, if you were looking at it from the side it would be at appox 1:30 and you close is counterclockwise to 12:00. Have to be careful not to get your hand caught on hard to pull bullets (don't ask me how I know ). I thought I could put some kind of turnbuckle with a gauge on it. Can you send me some of your extra baling wire and duct tape?

Good idea with the Generac! That way I could still pull bullets if the power was out!

I deprimed, cleaned primer pockets, neck brushed then annealed 200 of the Nosler brass we're talking about last night.

I threw in my RCBS sizer in the press without the expander ball and decapping rod and sized one case PFLR. I measured the neck and it was .331" which will give me .003" of bullet grip.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Hot Core,
They do make a tool to straighten your loaded round to "O" runout. I do not use one as I have greater problems than .0005 runout.
Butch

Hey Butch, I've seen someone mention that Thingy before on here. Maybe a "Bernson Tool", but the spellin' is questionable.

We used to have a guy post here as Reloader who drilled a hole in his Bench and used it to straighten Run-Out. I think he mentioned it only took a couple of Cartridges to develop a "feel" for how much to deflect the Case Neck to reduce the Run-Out. Reloader took up Noodlin'(catching catfish with his hands underwater) and I've not seen him post since. Maybe a BIGUN got him.
-----

I think my buddy, the esteemed Mr. Woods, misunderstood my post when he said, "HC is wrong in thinking that PFLR'ing will eliminate runout." Or, in his defense, if that is the impression I left, it was unintentional.

I do not know if any of my Cartridges have Run-Out. I've never measured for it. I do know for sure that by using a proper P-FLR, I have always been able to shoot small groups as far out as care to shoot. This distance does get shorter each decade due to reduced Trigger Time.

http://www.benchrest.com/hnh/

Have one of these but put a different gauge that goes an additional couple of zeros...

I ordered the Sinclair.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
Except with a collet puller you push up on the ram to pull the bullet. ...

You are absolutely correct. Good gosh, it has been a long time since I had to pull a Bullet.

Of course, that "simplifies" the task of creating a measuring device significantly. Place a bathroom scale on the floor under the Press Handle, place a jack of any type on it, Tare the scale to Zero, and let the Bullet Pulling begin with the jack. The scale will tell you what you want to know.

We had Concrete Crushers in the old Mechanical Engineering Lab that had a Pointer within the Dial. As you increased the Pressure, the Pointer went with the Indicator. Once the Pressure dropped off(concrete collapsed), the Pointer remained at the Highest weight until you re-set it.

You don't need one that Heavy, but the Pointer sure was a fine feature.
-----

Hey rcamuglia, I just went back and looked, but did not notice what kind of Bullet you are using. Did I miss it? What Bullet are you using?

I also noticed "M70". This is not intended as a slam on your rifle, but you would find it much easier to get better groups at distance with a Remington or a Savage due to their design. So, if you get real serious about the 1000yd shooting, you might want to keep that in mind.

I'd guess all of the $$$HIGH$$$ shooters are using one of the Custom Actions with all the goodies. No need to get depressed if you can't reach their level with "ANY" factory rifle.

I'm shooting 168gr A-Max's

Yeah, it's out of the custom shop, but still factory. Got it used, so I'm just trying to wring everything out of it I can.

Great Bullet which should do well for you.

I understand about the M70. In my youth that was the rifle of choice for most of the Wildcatters I learned from and was what I used. The old M70s(prior to the second year of production in SC) are kind of hit and miss on accuracy. The pre-64s and those made prior to SC were all made using "hand fitting" techniques that caused numerous "fitting" differences between each rifle. Those minor differences attribute to part of their accuracy challenges. That does not mean they can not be made to shoot well, but it is more difficult than with other designs.

One of my good Industrial Engineer buddies draws money from FN and went to New Haven prior to the move to see what all the problems were. Just talked to him last night.
-----

By the way, if you have not tried Seating the Bullet 0.005"-0.010" Into-the-Lands and then developing a Load, you might want to give that a try. A good many of my old "Who buys the BBQ?" Loads are Seated to engage the Lands a bit. If it extends too far, it will be pushed back into the case, which is still OK.

Perhaps Butch or Boss Hoss will toss in their thoughts on that approach. I don't do it with Hunting Loads, but it has worked well for me on pure accuracy loads. But, I'm not up on the latest BenchRest tricks, as they should be.

Thanks HC

I've been shooting the A Max and developed the first loads at .025" off the lands. After I found a decent load, I tried further adjusting it with seating depth, but the original was still the most accurate.

With that being said, I'm going back to the drawing board and re-developing the load with a magnum primer. I used the WLR for the first load and think that with 75 gr. + of powder, I will get better results with the magnum primer. I'm on better track now to get it as good as it can be with fire-formed Nosler brass that I freshly annealed with everything else you can do to prep the brass done. I have a Redding Comp seating die too.

The first load was about in the middle of the charge weight range. It was a little slow on the chrono, so I'm going to redevelop looking for the accuracy node closer to max.

I think I'll still start at about .025" off for development unless you all think I should jam for development.

If I can come up with something acceptable (I think I can, the gun has shot some incredible groups that I have never duplicated because of the runout and brass problems I'm guessing) I'll just be content even at 1 MOA at 1000.

If I can't, a gunsmith buddy has a barrel he wants to put on it.

If you have not found it yet, go to 6mmbr.com. It has ALOT of great info that you will find helpful in your quest. In the daily bulletin, yesterday, they reviewed a new handloading book for competition.The technical articles section is fantastic and has info from 1000 yd shooters.
Good luck.

Thanks on the 6mm br tip,

I surfed around and found this:

http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html

I think I'll try it with the bullets jammed.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I think I'll still start at about .025" off for development unless you all think I should jam for development. ...

It would be improper for me to tell you which way to go. You need to decide what you want to try.

I simply mentioned the Into-the-Lands trick because it has worked for me in the past. Try it which ever way you want, then if you don't like the results, you still have another option available for you to try.
-----

The thing about a different Barrel is it might shoot better, might shoot the same, or might shoot worse than your current barrel. No way to know until it is on the rifle and being Tested.

So, if you get a Load you are happy with, stick with it. Plenty of Powders and other Bullets to try that might make a good bit of difference in the Groups though.

I know that is a Weasel Word post, but no one really knows what your rifle is going to do. You just have to shoot it and see what happens.

Best of luck to you.

Well, here's the latest.........

After doing all the brass prep, I decided to re-measure and find my "Jam length" for the rifle. Mod 70, factory gun etc....

The magazine box in the Mod 70 is really short and the throat in the gun is reeeeaaaly long. My jam length is 3.6" and the mag box is about 3.3".

I decided not to waste any more components and took it to my gunsmith to have the barrel set back. He says it will really help the groups too

It'll be done in a couple of weeks.

I assume he is going to "square" or "true" the action also-?