Last year I recovered a 168 gr TSX from a deer: Thread on recovered bullet

This year, I recovered another. I shot a rather large, by east Texas standards anyway, doe. She was facing almost head on when I shot her. The bullet entered just below and left of the base of the neck, passed through the entire body cavity, into the right ham, broke the femur, and came to rest about 1" from the surface of the ham.

The bullet lost two petals, weighed 150.5 gr, and expanded to .622" at the widest point.

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On the same trip, I shot three hogs. All were side on shots and the bullets exited.

Regards,

LWD

Having read the posting and studying the photos I'm a little non plexed. Am I alone in thinking that this bullet isn't a great design for hunting. I have an inclination that the rear is over designed and the front under designed. More than necessary penatration and not enough short penetration tissue damage ( hydro static effect). roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Am I alone in thinking that this bullet isn't a great design for hunting.

No, you just haven't gotten into their kool-aid yet. I thought so much of them that I won't even use them on paper.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Am I alone in thinking that this bullet isn't a great design for hunting.

Oh, they're great for hunting... just not whitetails it seems

My buddy has been using barnes in alaska for many years. He loves what they do. He has a recovered one from a Moose that lost pedals.....didn't really matter as the trail behind the bullet was pretty much mush and the moose died quickly with one shot. (a 140 grain from a 7mm stw) There isn't a bullet out there that doesn't have some failures (or lack of perfect mushroom) behind it. Rest assured....THE TSX IS A GREAT HUNTING BULLET.

I was unsure of them and I have not tried them personally. However, I load them for a friends 300 WSM. While I was loading them I decided to weigh some of his 150's.

I was amazed to find some of them up to 2 grains different. I then weighed some A-frames, Game Kings and Partitions. All weighed within .2 grains of each other.

My friend called Barnes and they told him their tolerance is 3 grains.

All I can say is I will not buy them.

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
There isn't a bullet out there that doesn't have some failures (or lack of perfect mushroom) behind it. Rest assured....THE TSX IS A GREAT HUNTING BULLET.

BS. The first true bullet failure I'd ever seen in the field in 30 years of hunting was with one of these. There are plenty of bullets that do it better and more reliably.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I guess we "agree to disagree". The simple fact is (and I think it's pretty much indisputable) that if you read these forums long enough someone will post pic's of almost any bullet brand and type that didn't meet expectations. I personally like an exit wound for big game hunting and no bullet short of a solid can match the barnes for doing that on a consistant basis.

Lucky you, to recover a TSX.. The 130gr TSX in my 270win just blows through elk.

Barnes are the only bullet I've used for big game the past 16 years. They work great for me.

As with any SPECIALIZED hunting bullet, the bullet must be matched to the game. The Barnes (or any other) monometal bullet is a piss poor performer on ground squirrels and prairie dogs. It is an "iffy" performer on game the weight of pronghorn and whitetails. It is typically an appropriate performer on elk and moose.

Some people insist on a bullet exiting the game. Usually, a bullet that does so will kill slower than one which does not -- but there's no need to get into that debate here. Let's just say the the monometal bullets are appropriate for larger game and for those who wish for more, rather than less, penetration. Whitetails shot with them typically die a little slower, but, as with nearly any bullet launched at some significant velocity into the vitals, they almost always do die.

If someone wants to hunt whitetails with monometal bullets, fine. Unnecessary and costly, but fine.

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
I personally like an exit wound for big game hunting and no bullet short of a solid can match the barnes for doing that on a consistant basis.

You obviously don't have much experience with good bullets. The X is piss poor as an expanding bullet, and given the lack of expansion, penetration isn't very good. I expect good expansion and an exit, and a number of cup and core and bonded core softs reliably do both better.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
There isn't a bullet out there that doesn't have some failures (or lack of perfect mushroom) behind it. Rest assured....THE TSX IS A GREAT HUNTING BULLET.

BS....

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
I personally like an exit wound for big game hunting and no bullet short of a solid can match the barnes for doing that on a consistant basis.

You obviously don't have much experience with good bullets...

You know 400, I don't have a problem with your opinion, but I'll darned if I understand your tone of discussing it.
- mike

quote:

Originally posted by MyNameIsEarl:
I was unsure of them and I have not tried them personally. However, I load them for a friends 300 WSM. While I was loading them I decided to weigh some of his 150's.

I was amazed to find some of them up to 2 grains different. I then weighed some A-frames, Game Kings and Partitions. All weighed within .2 grains of each other.

My friend called Barnes and they told him their tolerance is 3 grains.

All I can say is I will not buy them.

I just talked to Barnes and they told me that their bullets are held to the industry standard for hunting bullets of 1% of weight. That means that each bullet will be within 1.5 grains for 150 grain bullets which would be a maximum variation of 3 grains.

Frank, I agree that Barnes holds them to within 1%, but I think that is just THEIR industry standard. I gotta agree with Earl, I never weighed any of the others that were more than .5 grains off, even Sierra factory seconds. I normally group the bullets I weigh into +.1 to +.2, dead on, and -.1 to -.2. That way I reload the same weight, be it over, under, or dead on.

Quoted from Nitro express:

"The X is piss poor as an expanding bullet, and given the lack of expansion, penetration isn't very good."

This is the most unbelievable statement from anyone who claims to have been judging hunting bullets for 30 years. It's a big mushroom that stops a bullet from penetrating.....the exact opposite is true of a bullet with a smaller frontal diameter. Bullets with a smaller frontal diameter and most of it's weight pushing (ie the x bullet) WILL ALWAYS PENETRATE FURTHER than what you appear to be claiming.

What I can never understand is HOW can a person pluck a bullet out of DEAD ASSED animal that he intended to KILL with that bullet...then talk about it failed???

Gosh i'm still trying to get past the 3 grain varance.

Darn, I didn't mean to start a battle here. If no one will target my posterior, I will add the following:

I have only shot 6 animals with TSXs. 3 whitetail deer and three hogs. I found that they expanded rather quickly. In 5 of the 6, I put the bullet into the boiler room, and the heart and lungs of each were pretty much homogoneized. The other took out several inches of spine.

Such a premium bullet is definitely NOT necessary for a whitetail deer---especially a rather small east or north Texas whitetail. And I won't claim it is. I am using them in my 06 because I was so impressed with the one out of my .375, and they shot so well, and they make the gun more versatile. I'm set for elk or black bear should I ever get the chance---something I doubt I would do with a 150 grain cup and core bullet in the same gun.

I have not experienced a TSX failure, but I can see that one not expanding would not be good at all. That would be the equivalent of a spitzer solid. So if one failed, I would expect the failure would result in quite a tracking job for the hunter.

I'm going back to behind the sofa.

LWD

Well! I guess that answered my question. roger

I have shot a bunch of game, including the last few whitetails. They will absolutely destroy tissue, and penetrate. Shot from end to end this year on a nice buck with a 100 TSX in the .257 Wby, didn't take a step. Also shot caribou with the .338 210 TSX this year-straight down. I don't care if they vary 10 grains if they are accurate, and they have been for me. As a matter of fact they fixed one of my problem rifles.

All I know is that they work for me. I've only taken three antelope with the 140 grain TSX in my 7 Mag and the internal (soft tissue) damage was phenominal. They are also the most accurate hunting bullets I have found in my 7 Mag and shoot really well in my 375 H&H.
Here's an 8 shot, 100 yard group shot with a 4X scope on my M70:

400 nitro wrote:

quote:

and given the lack of expansion, penetration isn't very good

That's kind of a goofy statement for a guy with '30 years' experience, isn't it?

LWD,
good post n pictures,no harm done!
proofs n the pudding as they say.
kraky,Fjold,k-22,great posts men ,at least someone knows what their talking about.
400 ne, you won this trophy all your self.
pretty hard to fix stupid....

Just to update anyone interested, I've been shooting some TSX bullets in various rifles since late 2002 or there abouts.

I would guess that most of you would opine that the 110 TSX in a 270 WIN would be a step away from the "norm" regarding typical bullet weight per rifle caliber, i.e., it is a bit on the light side.

Well, as I've reported before, my brother resides in S.C. and has been having good luck AGAIN with this combo on the deer population.

Absolutely nothing extraordinary to report, just a lot of dead deer, small hole in, nickel sized exits, all DRT, and everything between those holes is soupy. Pretty boring and unremarkable.

So, I guess I should inform my bro that I phuct up his load combo and it really doesn't work, that it's all in his head and those deer aren't really dead.

My "confusion meter" is also pegged out with the above referenced remark about decreased expansion leading to decreased penetration.

To date, and with a guess of about 40+ dead animals in recent years, all falling to a TSX, I still cannot state that this bullet performs BETTER than various other bullets of different makes, styles, 100% of the time, but it is at least equal to, and in no instance, INFERIOR to a partition, swift Aframe, tbbc, etc.

What I really LIKE about the TSX is the concentricity issue. Since there is no lead core, there is not worry about concentricity as as there is with say, a partition. I've had no difficulty finding an acceptable hunting load with a TSX in terms of accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Am I alone in thinking that this bullet isn't a great design for hunting?

No, many hunters think this way.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
More than necessary penatration and not enough short penetration tissue damage ( hydro static effect).

I never knew you could have too much penetration. But the latter; (not enough short penetration tissue damage), is, in my experience, completely inaccurate. I cannot think of one animal that I've dressed, or have seen dressed that didn't have either so much damage the vitals were soup, or at least a 2-3" big ass hole in the lungs, when killed with a TSX.

The only bullet I've seen do this was a Swift Aframe, 200 grain bullet, on a whitetail deer at 75 yards, from a 300 WM. Such a hard bullet, it didn't expand very much in the first lung, and only so so the rest of the way out. (Doe in Kansas). But, it didn't matter, she fell right there anyway from the several thousand foot pounds of energy.

I guess I could join in the foray and say that the Aframe in question definitely failed to expand. Was it the right bullet for the job, naaa, but don't we all preach to use what shoots best in the rifle? It's hard to tell your hunting buddy that his 200 grain Aframe factory Safari loads in 300 WM are not a good choice for deer when it shoots 1/2" groups all day long.

I never knew you could have too much penetration. .[/QUOTE]

That's what she said!

Sorry I couldn't help myself. roger

My question is, the deer's dead, where's the beef?
having said that, I too agree that up to 3 gr variation in a bullet is not acceptable to me FOR LONG RANGE SHOOTING when the North forks and GS customs are consistent to <0.5 grains.
NF are the best choice, IMO, for EVERYTHING, and they cost the same as TSX!
If you use different bullets for different game, (I do), a Nosler partition i thimk is ideal for deeer.
The swift Aframes and NF tops for large game (ELK +) or DGR

A point that is being missed is why some of us are shooting TSX bullets.

I have several rifles that have mediocre accuracy, UNTIL you put TSX bullets in them.
Then suddenly these same rifles are shooting 0.75 inch groups at 100 yards, whereas before they were shooting 2 inch groups.

I have a very strong impression about the TSX expansion having now hunted with them in the US and in Africa: the smaller the caliber (i.e. .257) the more likely they are to fail to open, despite velocity.

In Africa, the .411 X bullets I shot looked like the perfect mushrooms you see in advertisments...whether it was impala or hartebeast.

Because of that, when I shoot my 25-284 or my 270 Winchester (with the TSX), I make sure I'm going to get the heart, which means no off-hand shots.

It's always a compromise.

Garrett

Hey Dr. G, good points.....another reason I think many of us happen to shoot the TSX is b/c we simply like to try new stuff.

I'll openly admit, I love trying new bullets. I know there are many reasons to stick with what works, but I find that a bit boring over time.

There's something about the challenge of new load development for a new bullet, for me, just to see what they'll do. That is one of the reasons I tried the TSX to begin with. I also want to see how they perform on game.

For what it's worth Natchez has the mrx barnes bullet (with plastic tip) on sale for less than the tsx. If you are worried about them opening up (which I'm not) that would be a good solution. Many of them on sale for about $25 per box of 50.

Kraky,

Thanks for the heads up on the MRX bullet sale.

I'll have to get my father to order some for me.
Natchez Shooters Supply won't sell to Tennessee residents.

Garrett

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
For what it's worth Natchez has the mrx barnes bullet (with plastic tip) on sale for less than the tsx. If you are worried about them opening up (which I'm not) that would be a good solution. Many of them on sale for about $25 per box of 50.

I read, on Natchez, that those are boxes of 20, not 50. Midsouth shooters supply is a few cents cheaper than Natchez for the same box of 20.

quote:

I have a very strong impression about the TSX expansion having now hunted with them in the US and in Africa: the smaller the caliber (i.e. .257) the more likely they are to fail to open, despite velocity.

I've heard this too. I have some .308 180 gr and .375 270 gr on the loading bench. So, I got out the camera. The hollow point on the .375 is MUCH larger than on the .308.

.308 and .375 TSX hollow points

OOPS SORRY FOR THE MISINFORMATION. OK here's another tip. (and this one is correct). Don't know how many of you guys visit the nosler reloading forum but you might want to go there once in a while.

A little while ago they offered forum members only 2 boxes of the new E-tip blems for $16.95/box of 50 with $4.20 flat rate shipping.
So I'm gonna get 100 to my door step for under $40....I was hoping to experiment with them without spending the big bucks. Also shooters proshop has some really really good deals on solid base blems at about $6.55/50....that's a good deal too.

Guess you can't believe every advertisement you see but here is the video of a 180 tsx with gel block at about 2900 fps....

http://www.barnesbullets.com/videos/308_180gr_TSX_6fps_logo.mov

Hey Guys..

Got a question. In all the previous posts, I didn't see any mention about what the TERMINAL velocity was when the bullet struck the animal..?

All of the rounds that are mentioned in posts are 'fast' calibers... 7mmSTW, 300 mags etc,.. So, I have to wonder just how fast the bullets were going at impact..
It doesn't matter what bullet you are using.. You hit an animal at 3000fps+, the bullets is not going to hold together as well as one that impacts at say 2400fps..

I have corresponded with Barnes tech guys about this very topic recently. My inquiry was, what was the MINIMUM velocity that I could expect the Barnes bullets to perform as advertised.
As I suspected, that velocity was caliber, weight dependent, but in most cases it was about 2000-2100 fps. This information is critical to know how far away I should be shooting at game.

Then the discussion went to MAX velocity.. Again, caliber and weight along with game dependent, but they weren't so specific on velocity, but lost pedals 'might' occur over 3000fps terminal velocity.

Now I haven't used these bullets on game yet, but I was considering using a 7mm 120gr tripleX in my son's short barreled 7mm-08, so I was interested in this thread. But again, I was looking to see if anyone knows what the terminal velocities where in all the experiences above..
Thanks

Others will argue but if you are going really fast and lose pedals I think you still get good damage by a high speed "blunt front" projectile.
5 years ago I shot a 6x6 elk with my 30-378 and a 150 xbt. (This was a bullet this fussy gun loved). It was a whopping 65 yd shot with a muzzle velocity of 3700fps. The shot was slightly uphill quartering away. It entered near the last rib and exited through the far shoulder. I would be shocked at that speed if there were any pedals left when it hit that shoulder. The elk fell on the spot...rolled its head a couple of times and expired. The offside shoulder was "mush" even after going through about 2.5'(maybe 3.5') of elk with a 150 grainer.
The only other bullet I would have trusted to stay together on that should would have been a swift a-frame or northfork bonded...but I don't think they'd have made it that far with that much damage. I and my friend from alaska have been using barnes for a long time and never had a failure (or not had a dead animal) that we have shot at. I have other guns that prefer A-frames and partitions over the tsx. I'm not afraid to use any of these bullets....but if my gun likes the barnes it is my first pick.

The bullet test articles I have seen that include the TSX seem to suggest a 2200-3000 fps window. I know Barnes says 2000-2100, but from what I have seen anything under 2200 fps and expansion is dicey; over 3000 and you will likely lose petals.

Obviously, the loss of the petals is detrimental, but by how much? The bullet isn't functioning as desired, but the petals would be secondary projectiles. Kraky's experience sure would suggest they still work quite well.

LWD