Okay, I've been reloading the cartridge for a couple of years now. I have the Ruger #1 but I also have a custom heavy rifle built by Randy Selby based on Rem 700 action. As anticipated the space above the belt or web area gets a little bloated after firing. Before I FL resize I use a Colette die to fix this bloating. When I then FL resize I have been bumping the shoulder back .002" or close to that. With this method most fired brass doesn't need neck trimming. My question is would bumping back the shoulders a little more reduce the amount of bloating above the belt?

BTW, accuracy is unbelievable, extraction is a breeze, and MV can be right up there with the rest of the .30 caliber magnums. I shoot right alongside the .300 WM. I bring the MV to about 100 fps below spotting mushrooming around the the firing pin indent on the LR primers. So, 2800 fps for 190 grain bullet. Brass is acceptable and I have yet had to stop using a brass shell because of brass failure. I generally ruin a brass shell while resizing because of my own fault. For a while I was neck sizing and that isn't a good idea with the cartridge.


This is the Collet die I use...

http://www.larrywillis.com/diewcollet.jpg

I use the "belted magnum die" as well. Good tool. The bulge will form even if you bump the shoulder back more. The bulge is due to the belt not allowing standard FL dies to travel far enough down the case.

I've been neck sizing this case for many years (about 30 yrs). Only drawback is that I have 2 rifles in this caliber and must keep the brass separated as brass fired in the a3-03 won't chamber in the Mod 70. Neck sizing has improved my brass life considerably and I sometimes get 10 reloads on a lot of brass.

With these new rifles I found with just neck sizing, the bulge from previous fired brass would prevent the breech from closing on the #1 and also eventually broke the factory Remington extractor on the 700. Also, had the same problem of keeping the brass separated per firearm.

EDIT: Just realized you are in the same town as me.

Just FL size those, ill designed, belted cases just enough so that after you partial FL size a fired case you can feel the case's shoulder as you close the bolt slowly.

That Will's die is the wrong way. It will just flex the brass more and cause an early failure.

Just FL the case and load it and it will chamber.

Make a feeler wire to reach inside of every fired belted case to detect early head separations.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:
Just FL size those, ill designed, belted cases just enough so that after you partial FL size a fired case you can feel the case's shoulder as you close the bolt slowly.

That Will's die is the wrong way. It will just flex the brass more and cause an early failure.

Just FL the case and load it and it will chamber.

The belted magnum die has worked for me. I have cases reloaded 10 times using that die that may go more. If you use it from the get go...I can't see where it works brass any more than any FL die on unbelted brass.

On DG rifles...I am never going to shoot partial sized brass.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:
Just FL size those, ill designed, belted cases just enough so that after you partial FL size a fired case you can feel the case's shoulder as you close the bolt slowly.

That Will's die is the wrong way. It will just flex the brass more and cause an early failure.

Just FL the case and load it and it will chamber.

The belted magnum die has worked for me. I have cases reloaded 10 times using that die that may go more. If you use it from the get go...I can't see where it works brass any more than any FL die on unbelted brass. Make that feeler wire and check that brass for separations. The belted cases are the worst.

On DG rifles...I am never going to shoot partial sized brass.

Try a head separation on dangerous game. "Make a feeler wire and check each of those belted cases.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:
Just FL size those, ill designed, belted cases just enough so that after you partial FL size a fired case you can feel the case's shoulder as you close the bolt slowly.

That Will's die is the wrong way. It will just flex the brass more and cause an early failure.

Just FL the case and load it and it will chamber.

The belted magnum die has worked for me. I have cases reloaded 10 times using that die that may go more. If you use it from the get go...I can't see where it works brass any more than any FL die on unbelted brass. Make that feeler wire and check that brass for separations. The belted cases are the worst.

On DG rifles...I am never going to shoot partial sized brass.

Try a head separation on dangerous game. "Make a feeler wire and check each of those belted cases.

Sir,
I only shoot new brass when hunting DG. But...to keep my rifles and myself fine tuned...I load all practice rounds the same as hunting rounds...which means FL resized. The belted magnum has greatly extended case life for practice with these cases. In my .458 WM...the bulge will prevent FL resizing after 3 firings by causing the FL die to actually shave brass.

Since I have switched to using the collet die prior to standard FL resizing...the problem has vanished and case-life extended.

While I heed your advice on the feeler wire and think it is an excellent safety tip as well as just good common sense reloading...my point was that in these belted calibers where FL resizing is mandatory...especially with some particular chambers...the belted magnum collet die is a very good tool.

I use a strip of bail wire to reach down there and feel for a ring developing like in the picture. I've cut open a well used brass cartridge and found little wear and tear in that area. Nevertheless, it is the one thing to look for all the time.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:
Just FL size those, ill designed, belted cases just enough so that after you partial FL size a fired case you can feel the case's shoulder as you close the bolt slowly.

That Will's die is the wrong way. It will just flex the brass more and cause an early failure.

Just FL the case and load it and it will chamber.

Wrong. The issue is bulging just before the belt not a case head separation, which is a stretching of the brass. They are two different things.

Graybird is the very person who turned me onto the "belted magnum die"...thank you sir!

Case head separations happen at the bulge where the brass is stretched the most. I have probably had more CHS than anyone you know.
That is part of life shooting a Lee-Enfield.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:
Just FL size those, ill designed, belted cases just enough so that after you partial FL size a fired case you can feel the case's shoulder as you close the bolt slowly.

That Will's die is the wrong way. It will just flex the brass more and cause an early failure.

Just FL the case and load it and it will chamber.

Wrong. The issue is bulging just before the belt not a case head separation, which is a stretching of the brass. They are two different things.

Stretching and bulging occur in the web area of the cartridge that is true. However, with bulging you get hard case loading. When fired this creates additional stress on the web area and you get stretching when fired. The bulge has no place to go so stretching occurs along the case. I would also like to add that the belt itself is only useful on these earlier magnum cases. They are not really needed on later magnums' that are based on these earlier ones. I do believe that the Colette die is useful on magnum cases where the belt is there for good reason. In other words, a reloader may not need a Colette die for a .300 WM.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:
Just FL size those, ill designed, belted cases just enough so that after you partial FL size a fired case you can feel the case's shoulder as you close the bolt slowly.

That Will's die is the wrong way. It will just flex the brass more and cause an early failure.

Just FL the case and load it and it will chamber.

Wrong. The issue is bulging just before the belt not a case head separation, which is a stretching of the brass. They are two different things.

Wrong!

That is just where case head separations happen.

This one has been beaten to death so many times that it has become an un-killable zombie.

EVERY brass rifle case, regardless of whether it has a rimless, belted, rebated, rimmed, or "semi-rimmed" head will form a pressure ring just in front of the head when fired at normal pressures. The pressure ring forms just in front of the head at the point at which the brass becomes thin enough that it will expand against the walls of the chamber, but the thicker brass to the rear will resist and not expand against the chamber wall, thus a differential in diameter occurs.

Just exactly where this pressure ring forms depends on how hard the head is, how far forward the thicker brass extends, and how much pressure the load generates (higher pressures form the pressure ring slightly further rearward).

Since the thinner forward brass grips the chamber walls due to the internal pressure and the thicker brass does not, when the head is pushed by the chamber pressure against the bolt face the brass has to stretch at the pressure ring. The greater the headspace the more the case stretches at the pressure ring, thus if the headspace is fairly generous (made so by full length sizing on each firing), it will take fewer firings to make the brass thin enough at the pressure ring that it will fail, resulting a crack or head separation.

The pressure ring on belted brass is no different from that on rimless brass. However, it is often more noticeable since manufacturers are infamous for oversizing belted chambers (thus causing the pressure ring to be larger in diameter), plus the belt provides a visual reference point which is absent on a rimless case, making the pressure ring more visible to the casual eye.

Full length sizing dies, regardless of the type of cartridge head, are NOT designed to resize the base area of any cartridge (the exception being specialized "small base" dies which are often used for autoloaders.) This is because it is (1) generally not necessary, and (2) difficult to do with a conventional sizing die.

Regardless of case head type, IF a pressure ring becomes so enlarged that it is interfering with the rechambering of a cartridge, then the pressure of the previous load or loads is excessive for that brass case. Cases vary in thickness and hardness, so pressure of a given load can be fine in one case but excessive in another. Resizing an excessively expanded case (through any method) can allow it to be reused, but quite frankly you're playing with fire and risking a case failure when you do this.

The ONLY instance in which a collet die which resizes the base of a case (irons out the pressure ring) might be useful would be when cases from a larger chamber are to be used in a smaller chamber. Most of us try to avoid this circumstance, but if it is unavoidable then the use of a collet base-sizing die would be theoretically desirable.

So why do many people believe the use of a collet die is necessary and desirable for belted brass when they don't think the same of rimless brass?

1. Handloaders tend to load "magnums" to somewhat higher pressures in order to get "magnum" performance from them, thus creating larger pressure rings.

2. Shooters can see the pressure ring better on belted brass.

3. Excessively expanded brass rechambers with difficulty, so they blame the pressure ring rather than looking at other dimensional issues.

4. Belted magnums, once chambered exclusively in turnbolt actions, have been adapted to autos and single shot actions which have no camming power, thus present chambering difficulties if brass is not somewhat undersized for the chamber. With these actions, squeezing excessively expanded brass down any way you can is sometimes necessary.

My very first centerfire rifle, purchased in 1965, was a .264 magnum, and outside of the box of shells that came gratis with the gun, has had nothing but my 3,000 or so handloads fired in it over the last 49 years. I load (or have loaded) for .264 WM, 7mm RM, 7mm STW, .300 H&H, .300 Win, .300 WBY, .338 WM, .338/8mmRM, .375 H&H, .375 H&H IMP, and .416 Rem. Because I have never needed to use brass in any chamber other than the one it was fired in, and because I recognized chambering problems caused by excessive pressures (and have ventured over that line more times than I care to admit), I have never needed anything other than a conventional sizing die. If someone prefers to load in a different manner that's their business, but they shouldn't attempt to convince the rest of the world that resizing the base of any cartridge, rimless or belted, is a necessary and desirable practice.

I'm running 2800 fps with 190 grain bullet. I don't consider that excessive magnum speed. With the exception of the H&H cartridges I can see why you don't use a base die. Anyway, my question was whether bumping the shoulder back more than .002" would result in less bulging stress on the web area.

Hi Stonecreek,
I have one rifle that I have found the collet base die imperative for. That is a 1957 Win M70 in .458 WM. I hunt elephant and buffalo with it only and always load FL resized new brass for it when going to Africa.

However...when practicing and checking zero...I use previously fired brass...at least up until right before leaving when I double check zero with some new brass loads. I load my practice loads to the exact specifications as I do hunting loads...FL resized.

Of all the belted mag cals and rifles I have...this is the only one that gets a bad bulge. By the 3rd loading of new brass FL resized each time...the FL die will shave brass at the bulge it is so bad...making me discard the case. I have checked the cases with a feeler wire and while you can define the bulge with it internally...you don't find the distinct ring inside of a case ready to separate.

So...I decided to try a Willis collet die and use it pre FL resizing every time with that rifle. I have cases now that I have reloaded 10 times with out problems and still no ring palpable via wire probing.

In this rifle...this die has been very useful in this situation. I am sure it must have a sloppy chamber but it shoots so good and I have no brass life issues as long as I use the collet base die...so I just keep doing it.

What he explains here and on the linked post below makes sense. But I want to run @2800 fps. Currently using Hornady brass. I've reloaded this lot several times and check with a feeler wire and even cut one open a couple of loads back and no sign that they are going to give out right there. The diameter before base die is .516". After base die .510". So, we are looking at about .006", which is enough over time to break my Rem 700 factory extractor. It is also enough to prevent loading my Ruger #1.

Also, the link below he answers my shoulder question, which is is no space at all.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...911019181#1911019181

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Hi Stonecreek,
I have one rifle that I have found the collet base die imperative for. That is a 1957 Win M70 in .458 WM. I hunt elephant and buffalo with it only and always load FL resized new brass for it when going to Africa.

However...when practicing and checking zero...I use previously fired brass...at least up until right before leaving when I double check zero with some new brass loads. I load my practice loads to the exact specifications as I do hunting loads...FL resized.

Of all the belted mag cals and rifles I have...this is the only one that gets a bad bulge. By the 3rd loading of new brass FL resized each time...the FL die will shave brass at the bulge it is so bad...making me discard the case. I have checked the cases with a feeler wire and while you can define the bulge with it internally...you don't find the distinct ring inside of a case ready to separate.

So...I decided to try a Willis collet die and use it pre FL resizing every time with that rifle. I have cases now that I have reloaded 10 times with out problems and still no ring palpable via wire probing.

In this rifle...this die has been very useful in this situation. I am sure it must have a sloppy chamber but it shoots so good and I have no brass life issues as long as I use the collet base die...so I just keep doing it.

A straight-walled case is certainly a different kettle of fish, and having never loaded for a straight-walled rifle case your situation didn't occur to me.

Bottlenecked belted case should, like any bottlenecked case, be sized to headspace on the shoulder. Obviously, this ain't gonna happen with the .458, which must always headspace on the belt. It sounds like your .458 is, in effect, "headspacing" on the pressure ring (if you don't size it back down) and that pressure ring in the minimally tapered .458 chamber is large enough to create resistance to rechambering a fired case. This is understandable since you have to ratched the pressure in a .458 up to around the maximum sustainable pressures in order to get it to the 2100-2200 fps with a 500 grainer where it needs to be for dangerous game. (Though I've not experienced it myself, the factory loads at 1900 or so are said to have a disappointingly weak effect on large, truculent species.)

I'll buy the notion that the collet die can be useful with the .458.

By the way, have you thought about setting the barrel back a turn or so and rechambering to .458 Lott? That might give you a boost in velocity, lower your chamber pressures, and solve the pressure ring bulge. But I can understand not wanting to modify a pre-64 Winchester 70.

I only shoot 450 gr bullets in it...mostly solids. It is easy to attain 2250 fps with this cartridge with 450s and A-2230. Also...the old rifles have very long throats...allowing you to seat bullets to magazine maximum specs...which are generous.

At 100 yds with NF fps bullets...I sometimes have to check the backboard of the target holder to make sure all 3 bullets passed through.

So...I just leave it alone.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I only shoot 450 gr bullets in it...mostly solids. It is easy to attain 2250 fps with this cartridge with 450s and A-2230. Also...the old rifles have very long throats...allowing you to seat bullets to magazine maximum specs...which are generous.

At 100 yds with NF fps bullets...I sometimes have to check the backboard of the target holder to make sure all 3 bullets passed through.

So...I just leave it alone.

I would too!

Independent of chamber width variance and contribution to pressure ring size, belted mag chambers can be on the long side. As noted, this aggravates the case life problem. One of our M-700 .300 Wins and our .300 Roy Mk5 have very long chambers that makes brass totally unuseable after the second firing - whether we partial size or not.

I deal with this by running virgin brass over a .338 expander button, then part way into the .308 sizer, so as to forward relocate the shoulder. The exact location of the shoulder is dictated by resistance to bolt closure. First case loading is sub-max. Cases are then useable for several firings.

I do not hunt dangerous stuff, and resistance to bolt closure would not likely be OK there. But it is just fine chasing non-dangerous stuff.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by Samuel_Hoggson:
Independent of chamber width variance and contribution to pressure ring size, belted mag chambers can be on the long side. As noted, this aggravates the case life problem. One of our M-700 .300 Wins and our .300 Roy Mk5 have very long chambers that makes brass totally unuseable after the second firing - whether we partial size or not.

I deal with this by running virgin brass over a .338 expander button, then part way into the .308 sizer, so as to forward relocate the shoulder. The exact location of the shoulder is dictated by resistance to bolt closure. First case loading is sub-max. Cases are then useable for several firings.

I do not hunt dangerous stuff, and resistance to bolt closure would not likely be OK there. But it is just fine chasing non-dangerous stuff.

Sam

Creating a "false" shoulder is one way to deal with excessive headspace, whether the cartridge is belted or otherwise (it is generally more necessary with beltless cases since there is no belt rebate which also serves as a headspacing mechanism.) I use somewhat the same method when reforming .30-06 brass for use in a .280 Rem. Of course, the .30 cal neck doesn't need expanding since it already larger than the desired .284 neck, but by resizing with the .280 die only enough to allow the brass to enter the chamber with a tad of resistance, this leaves a prominent "false" shoulder on the case on which to headspace. The resulting finished cartridge looks a bit strange with its two-diameter shoulder, but upon firing it irons out perfectly, leaving a perfectly headspaced once-fired case. Incidentally, the loads with the first firing of the un-fireformed case provide the identical (and excellent) accuracy of those loaded in the fully formed cases.

But can you describe how the "long" chamber renders the brass unusable? Is it excessive thinning at the pressure ring?

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:But can you describe how the "long" chamber renders the brass unusable? Is it excessive thinning at the pressure ring?

Yes, severe thinning to the point of incipient separation. I was having to toss all brass after the 2nd firing in those two .300s.

So you feel there's no need to go reduced load for the first firing? Sam

quote:

Originally posted by Samuel_Hoggson:


Yes, severe thinning to the point of incipient separation. I was having to toss all brass after the 2nd firing in those two .300s.

So you feel there's no need to go reduced load for the first firing? Sam

No need for a reduced fireforming load. Just go ahead and load your regular full-power load and shoot it as you would fireformed brass. I've found no difference in velocity or accuracy with the first load in formed brass when using this method. If your "false shoulder" is holding the case snugly against the bolt face then you'll experience virtually no case stretching and performance will be essentially the same as with fireformed brass.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
No need for a reduced fireforming load. Just go ahead and load your regular full-power load and shoot it as you would fireformed brass. I've found no difference in velocity or accuracy with the first load in formed brass when using this method. If your "false shoulder" is holding the case snugly against the bolt face then you'll experience virtually no case stretching and performance will be essentially the same as with fireformed brass.

Thanks, will do. Sam