The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading ANOTHER TSX FAILUREGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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On The 24 hr Campfire forums under GENERAL BIG GAME HUNTING one of there members has posted a recovered photo of a 70 gn 22 cal tsx proj recovered from a hog ....if some body could transfer it on to this forum it would be much appreciated just shows barnes still have not sorted out the problem with the proj expanding reliabley .... regards daniel | ||
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I've seen that pic, and I'm not sure it shows that Barnes has failed anywhere. First of all, the hog died and the bullet was recovered. Second, although the bullet could have expanded more, asking any 22 bullet -- even a very heavy premium one -- to punch through the gristle plate of a hog and then kill it is a very tall order. Here's the back story: A long-time poster decided to test some heavy bullets in a 22-250. He's a seasoned hunter and a good shot, he knows enough about what he's doing to do it right, and he's mindful that it's an experiment. The copy (in part) reads like this: "The next bullet up was the new 70 grain Barnes triple shock. I launched one at an 90 lb. pig hauling some serious butt at 300 yards braud side. I nailed him in the front shoulder and he instantly collapsed dead. Post mortum revealed a massive wound channel through lots of heavy bone in both shoulders, as well as ribs. The bullet was found just under the skin of the off side shoulder....facing the opposite direction (it was backwards). The pic shows that the bullet failed to expand much and would have probably not expanded at all had it not hit so much bone. The bullet didn't really fail, because the pig was seriously crunched, but the bullet did fail to mushroom. Impact velocity would have been in the 2,500 fps range, near as I can figure. I expected it to open up a lot more." I think that when you send a boy to do a man's job, and the boy does it, you can't complain about his methods. Okie John "The 30-06 works. Period." --Finn Aagaard | |||
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Good analysis, Okie John. Now to look for the picture ... | |||
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the fact REMAINS the proj did not expand as it should have and with the long history the barnes x proj have of just penciling through one would have to be naive to disregard a incident like this.....i know how tough pigs are , i have shot them with my 06 with 180 gn noslers from 20 meteres and the proj have not penetrated sufficientley to exit no one is expecting a 22 proj to exit a pig just to expand propley which it didnt further still the 70 gn tsx hit some pretty tough traffic and still did not expand which further rienforces my view that barnes have still not got it right ....remember this proj hit a pretty tought part of the pig which should have created enough resistance for the proj to expand the vel was still up there .....i think it should be back to the drawing board for the folk at barnes daniel | |||
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here's the picture:  I must question a couple of the parameters and assumptions. Impact velocity would be about 2400 fps, or thereabouts, and the bullet DID expand, and it DID cause a large wound channel: it most CERTAINLY did NOT "pencil through". Could it have expanded more? Yes. Was it NECESSARY for good performance? From the description given, absolutely not. Also, that is near normal for x-bullet deformation at that impact speed. It is NORMAL for bullets to invert after impact. Particularly heavy bullets with marginal stabilization. Finally, the conjecture that the bullet opened up only because it hit bone is just that: conjecture. This sort of thinking is based on people's experience with cup-bullets. Solid copper bullets act differently. Barnes bullets open up when hitting water or any other substance of similar hardness. The only relevant part of the story about the bone is that the TSX went through it, without going to pieces. JMO, Dutch. Life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog. | |||
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To me that's not a terrifically surprising pic of a barnes bullet. Ithink it did open up and the pedals got broken off. Did the pedals open on initial impact and then shear right off at that time or did they open go a ways and then shear off?? No one knows or probably will ever know. But, the poster says the bullet created a good wound channel. So, just because people don't like what the finished bullet looks like who cares?? I have a 30-378 that likes lightweight bullets. Just wont' shoot 165's or 180's well long range. It's a strange gun and likes 150 barnes bullets. A couple years ago I shot a 6x6 elk not at the 300 yds I was thinking of but at 80 yds quartering away. The bull dropped on the spot, rolled it's head a few times and died. I would be crazy to think that the bullet hit the bull at 3600 fps, opened a perfect mushroom, continued through 3.5' of elk and exited. If I had to guess I'd pretty much promise that bullet shed all it's pedals at some point and and continued at high speed as a flatnose bullet through the rest of the elk. It's just that's what can happen with that partiular bullet design. Bottom line is one dead elk that didn't take one more step. I'm not afraid to use them again. | |||
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It is NORMAL for bullets to invert after impact when shot in a marginal twist! You have two choices: #1... Have a fast enough twist to terminate point on. #2... Accept the fact that not enough circumferential "spin" will get you longitudinal "spin" everytime. BigRx | |||
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It would be interesting to know the weight of the recovered bullet. My guess and it is nothing more than that, is that the bullet started to expand on impact and then shortly afterwards lost stabilisation for what ever reason. It continued to penerate but because it was no longer traveling nose first, stopped expanding..The tumbling bullet would also account for the description of the wound channel.. I don't think I would say that bullet had failed, more that it was not the best choice for those particular circumstances. However, it did the job and that is more than many other .22 bullets would have done.. Regards, Pete | |||
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Barnes bullets have a long history of either working fabulously or failing miserably. The original Barnes X bullets did not expand and passed through game like a solid. Maybe they don't have the new TSX dialed in yet. | |||
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i wonder how a core-lokt out of a .30/30 would have done? | |||
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A bullets ability to remain stable when transiting any medium is very much dependent upon medium density. No bullet that I'm aware of has sufficient angular momentum to remain gyroscopinally stable when transiting tissue or bone. Whether it does or not remain stable is likely due to other factors, including random chance. There is discussion on this subject on the GS Custom web site IIRC, sorry I don't have the link. I think it's available on one of Gerard's postings in the Africa Forum. I don't think one could reasonably say the subject bullet on this thread failed. It appears to have done just what I'd expect of a low velocity(for a Barnes X or like design)strike. Sort of the antithesis of the Ballistic Tip in a way.  If yuro'e corseseyd and dsyelixc can you siltl raed oaky? | |||
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It failed to expand.It killed the pig,it dumped its energy and appears to held its weight. I have a Trophy Bonded Bear Claw that broke apart did not hold its weight and went in a different path once inside a zebra. No doubt which one performed better in my mind. Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war; That this foul deed shall smell above the earth With carrion men, groaning for burial. | |||
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A 70 grain, 22 caliber bullet shot out of a 30/30 wouldn't have performed well at all. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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Hey Dutch, I've not had one of those in my hands. Did you mean the bullet "did not" expand all the way to the bottom of the Hollow Point? --- Interesting responses. I sure thought the best thing you could do with the new Barnes(post Fred's era) is use it so the Impact Velocity is at least 2800fps. And the higher you can get the Impact Velocity, the better the new Barnes bullets will work. Since the bullet starts so slow, it just looks like an improper use of the Bullet Design to me. "BUT", it did work. Obviously not as it would have if the Impact Velocity had been proper. | |||
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At what point during the animal's death did the bullet fail? Doug | |||
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Another story of excellent TSX performance: A 90 lb. animal with a 22 caliber bullet killed dead on the spot at 300 yards after creating a massive wound channel and traversing side to side. Wow! And I was beginning to doubt TSX's.  No doubt the excellent accuracy of the TSX contributed to the hit. How would another accurate bullet like the SMK or the Bal Tip have performed? Or would we even know cause the pig probably WOULD HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WOUNDED! BTW, to get 2500 fps at 300 yards my ballistic program says the muzzle velocity would have to be over 4000 fps. Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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I think the guys who addressed the twist rate have hit the nail on the head. The bullet didn't fail, the shooter did. Lost river ballistics and GS Custom go to great lengths to educate their customers that a monometalic bullet requires a fast twist for weight ratio. in 224 caliber GS Custom recomends a twist rate of 7.6" for a 60 gr. monometalic bullet to remain stable through penetration. I know media encountered after impact can vary this, but it gives a generalization of of what to expect. The .458 Win Mag gained a bad rap because a lot of guns chambered for it had a twist rate a little on the slow side causing too many of them to tumble after impact, especially when extreme penetration is required on very big game. On smaller game a tumbling bullet can also get the job done, just not quite as expected, hence the nose looking like it didn't expand like it shouild have. Ron.D | |||
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imho PERFECT performance of that style bullet... it did begin to open it did retain weight it is the polar opposite of the BT... let's pray they make them in .550 300 yards at a running pig, now that's a wicked shot... and a 22 bullet to boot... let's look at the choice.. 1- limited bearing surface-- read cross sectional density 2- impact more like 2100, if quickload can be at all trusted 3 barnes don't make BT ... or other bombs jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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So this guy shoots at a pig with a 22-250 at 300 yds that's running fast and hit's it. That's quite a shot! The lead would be 9.79 ft if the pig was running 20 mph. I suppose pigs don't bound so it would just mean holding ahead of the spot you wanted to hit by ten feet or so. Also if the rifle were zero'd at 200 yds then you would also have to click off 6.6" of elevation. It's amazing what people can do. Here I am shooting heavy kicking guns at game animals and some experts can pull off running shots at long range with varmint rifles.  Join the NRA | |||
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If the bullet killed the animal, then it just failed to expand. However, while moose hunting a few years ago I saw at least two premium bullets (very famous ones) that failed to expand. They still killed the moose, and were recovered. 1. The first one was a 225 grainer out of a .338WM. I am not going to say what bullet it was, but it's a very expensive bullet, similar in construction to the Swift A-Frame, but not an A-Frame. Like the A-Frame, this bullet is "bonded," and has exposed lead up in front. It was fired from approximately 150 yards. 2. The second bullet was fired from a .300WM, from approximately the same distance, and by another hunter on another moose. This bullet weighed 180 grains. -------- Upon close inspection of both bullets, this is what I noticed: Both bullets did not expand. The exposed leads on the nose was intact. The front portion of these bullets, around the ogive, was slightly bent, and both had a sort of indentation on the inside portion of the bend. Both hunters and I concluded that these bullets passed through flesh and then turned, and both took glansing blows on the side of the nose (by the ogive). Their noses didn't hit bone whatsoever. -------- Lets assume that the Barnes TSX failed. If so, we must also assume that quite a lot of bullets, regardless of brand, fail to expand. The reason why we don't know that is because tough bullets most often pass right through. We only notice their "failure" when they don't kill the game, or when we retrieve them from game and look at the conditions of these bullets. I bet there are countless bullets "failing" each day. They just pass right through and we never see them. | |||
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[QUOTE} Did you mean the bullet "did not" expand all the way to the bottom of the Hollow Point? [/QUOTE] I had not thought of it in those terms, but I suppose that not a bad way of looking at it, at all. No, I don't think the petals peeled all the way back. I also think that because the bullet inverted, some of the petals may have bent a little back, making the mushroom seem a little smaller than it was at maximum. You can really see that in the one petal that's kind of sticking up. That doesn't happen when the bullet impacts, that happens after it turns around and keeps going. I've seen X-bullets inverted before. The first bull elk I ever shot was with a 7mag and a 160 gr. X. It, too, was inverted when I found it (after going diagonally through the elk), and it, too had one petal that was bent "the wrong way" in the process. Of course, the elk perished in a few steps, unlike the cow I shot the year before with 175 gr. conventional bullets (plural). FWIW, Dutch. Life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog. | |||
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So, this turns out to be a good recommendation for TSX bullets after all. They must be very accurate, having made such a Hail Mary shot on a running piglet at 300 yards. Tasty bacon. That bullet should be used mainly for target shooting at long range, with fast twist barrel, and I am sure that is the main design purpose. It is a tiny .22 caliber of high BC with a tiny little hollowpoint best used for paper punching. It nevertheless did begin to mushroom on the tiny piggy. It is a good bullet for stunt shooters to use on big game at close range, certainly no more than 200 yards for that application, and 100 yards would be much better for such MINOR CALIBER STUNT SHOOTING. It would surely make a prettier .22 caliber picture if used more appropriately. | |||
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I agree with RIP. I put a fast(er) twist 223WSSM together, and I am bound and determined to take it after a deer (knowing full well the limitations that I put myself under, using it). It's marginal, for sure, but 4,000 fps of x-bullet (the 53 grainer, in this case), it just needs te be explored. Of course, the former importer of GS customs bullets used 40 grainers on pigs from (IIRC) a 224 TTH, with entirely satisfactory results. FWIW, Dutch. Life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog. | |||
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This thread reeks of the Sierra employee that told a customer at what point did the bullet fail if it killed the animal..Probably the dumbest damn reply to a legitamate question I have ever heard... Plain and simple this bullet failed, it killed the animal this time, but what about the next failure and the next, get real.. If you guys want to shoot bullets that have a bad track record be my guest, I lived through those bullet failure years and never want to shoot those bullets again... Bullet failure today is unforgivable if it occurs more that one time..I may give them a second try, but that's it... It is just plain ignorant to stay loyal to a company that has bullets with a bad track record...Barnes traditionally have either worked to perfection or failed miserably, I think it has to do with quality control, because of the high demand...A common fault with companies today... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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ray - i think that a big problem is that people ask a bullet to dow hat it isn't designed to do. they see too many magazine ads with a perfectly-muishroomed bullet with a complete pass through and 100% weight retention and expect it to happen that way all the time in the field. my news for these people is that the field is not a controlled environment, and many, many variables can come into play. considering that the guy was using a .22CF and a monolithic bullet of a size apparently too geavy for the twist rate, i think that it would be unrealistic to expect one of those picture perfect mushrooms and a complete pass-through. a much more realistic application would have been a 7mm or better with a roundnose bullet in the 145-160 range. there would have been rapid expansion coupled with deep penetration hich would have combined to bring this pig down with a powerful statement. | |||
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Hey you guys must be consultants just like me...a sample of 1 is a trend Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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The larger caliber X-Bullets with the big holes in the noses have always worked great for me. Some earliest vintage X-Bullets had tiny nose holes, failed, got redesigned, and have worked great since. Higher bullet weight for caliber at any given impact speed will also make them open up better. See MacPherson. Using sub-30 caliber and lesser weight for caliber bullets of X-persuasion, at low velocities, might be a culprit in a few isolated failures since redesign of the hollow point. The circa 2001 .375/300gr XFB Cannelured from my .375 H&H had MV of only 2529 fps and impact velocity would be down to about 2200 fps at 200 yards. They performed flawlessly on six animals in Botswana plains game out to that range. Saeed sure proved the worth of the old X bullets before there were Walterhogs. Slightly higher velocity in the .375/404, yes, but some long range kills too. The .416/350 XFB Cannelured has worked great at 2700 fps MV on water buffalo at 50 yards and fallow deer at 347 yards, for me. The .308/165 XBT at 3200 fps from my .300 Weatherby has worked fine out to 300 yards on deer and 50 yards on wild turkey for me. | |||
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Come on, Ray. Cough it up. What were they?  If it happened, then it's useful information.I know, you're probably worried that whatever brand they are has "fans" here that will be on you like a pack of wolves to shoot the messanger...and you're probably right. But keep in mind for each of those there will probably be 100 people who read it and are thankful you provided the information even if they may not be the most vocal. Whitetail Pics 2002 Free Targets | |||
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i guess its called common sence in theform of atkinson ...THE BULLET FAILED that 70 gn proj at that impact vel should have expanded to the bottom of the hollow point ...IT DID NOT i hate to think what would have happened if this bullet was slipped in between the ribs its a failure pure and simple daniel | |||
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I agree with your assessment. Darn shame that someone reading this thread "that has one of these bullets" can't stick a small wire into the nose and tell us how far down the Hollow Point reaches. If the hole is too small to do that, saw one partially down the nose and see where it stops. Since I see lots of posts from folks killing Deer with Bullets in 223Rem - 220Swifts that I consider "marginal" at best, I would think your new outfit will kill them easily. Only problem would be if it does not drop in it's tracks, it has the potential to leave little or no blood trail. Where you hunt, that might not be any kind of hinderance at all. Where I hunt, it is a serious issue. --- Interesting that some of the posts in this thread are saying the "Bullet is a problem" when the real problem is the "improper use of that Bullet Design". It really surprises me that Mr. Ray would come in against it. I understand his concern from his previous experience with the Barnes Bullets. But in this situation, the Bullet is being used in an application with the wrong Velocity, which it is simply not Designed for. Now, if Mr. Ray reloaded a 400gr 0.458" Speer bullet(designed with a thin jacket for use in original 45-70 Trapdoor Springfields) in a 458Win or 460Wby, would he be justified in complaining that the Bullet - DID NOT work well on Buffalo? | |||
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I don't know all the facts, so I will make some assumptions. The 22/250 standard twist rate is not what this bullet was designed for. With what has been described, it sounds like the bullet was understabalized, which could cause the bullet to tumble which would cause a massive wound channel but no expansion. I have shot those bullets out of my 223 WSSM with marginal accuracy results. My 223 WSSM has a 1 in 10 twist, the 22/250 usually is slower like 1 in 12 and the bullet was designed for faster twist, around 1 in 8. Faster twist results in more expansion. If you remember back when Winchester introduced the Fail Safe Bullet, they redesigned the slower velocity bullet because their testing procedure was flawed, they used longer range testing with a magnum to simulate the lower velocity of the 30-06 and 308. The flaw was the rotational effect. Even though the velocity was the same, the rotational effect was not. The faster the rotational speed the greater the expansion. To get a true test of this bullet it needs to be used in the right twist gun. By the way, a 53 gr TSX out of my 223 WSSM did a complete pass through on a Mule deer buck at 175 yrds. Broke ribs going in and out. I was a good experiment, but I will still stick with bigger caliber bullets for future hunts. I might use those bullets again with my daughter deer hunting because she is comfortable shooting my varmint guns. Aaron | |||
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I think Aaron is on to something. The standard twist on a 22-250 is 14, but this gun was a fast twist (8, IIRC). Still, a 70 gr. "x-bullet" is at the far outside of the envelope, and I see no need for it. Most of the "complaints" with x-bullets are from people that use the heavy for caliber versions. I've been shooting them through all sorts of creatures, but I always use bullets at least two steps down in weight. Always get pass-throughs, always get immediate incapacitation. In that light, I find it unfortunate that Barnes seems to be trending UP in weight. JMO, Dutch. Life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog. | |||
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Light weight X bullets can go faster and help expansion thataway, but the greater impact forces of the heavier bullet will produce a greater integral of m(dv/dt) and more work done to open the bullet. works as long as the target is substantial enough to offer resistance. | |||
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First of all forgive my ignorance...but what is wrong with with a solid on small game. I know It is not ideal but in my mind a much preferred "failure" to a bullet stopping due to rapid expantion and fragmentation. Secondly this bullet clearly started to open. My understanding of a barnes "failure" was not opening. This is clearly not an energy transfer bullet, but a penetration bullet, which it seems to always do. I have a hard time believing that a small game animal (deer etc) would go more than 400 yards with a pencil hole through both lungs (failure) Again I know nothing about solids on smaller game (or bigger for that matter). I just know I have never seen an X bullet recovered and never seen a critter get away after being hit with one. | |||
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Hey Aaron, Completely agree with you concerning the "twist rate" too. Still don't believe you can get this bullet where the Impact Velocity will be "above" 2800fps in a 22-250 though. The faster twist does increase the opportunity for that l-o-n-g bullet to stabilize, but the Design still requires high Impact velocity for what I would consider "proper expansion"(expansion to the bottom of the Hollow Point). Look forward to Dutch's results. Any idea what the Impact Velocity might have been on it? | |||
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The only way for bullet twist to have an impact on Expansion would be for the bullet to be severly out of stabalizattion at impact (Wobbling). I would have to believe that the bullet we are talking about was stable at impact especially at the range of the shot. Regardless of how fast a X bullet is spinning or how stable it is in flight, it can tumble easily depending on the bones, angle, tissue, etc. etc. That's why I use soft points and NBTs  . They Expand enough on entry that it doesn't matter if they tumble through the other side.Reloader | |||
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You guys can tell from my previous post that I'm a believer. I've never had an animal shot with a Barnes x or TSX go more than 50 yds or so. Even the bullet that slips through the ribs without hitting any bone leaving mush where there had been lungs. All of my experience comes from deer and most with a 270 130g, except the ones in Alberta and they were 300WSM 150g. I have only recovered 1, that was from a 270. Shooting down hill at 280 yds. Bullet entered right shoulder and lodged in the left thigh after smashing through the femur, perfect mushroom But the main reason I am a fan is 2 HOLES 2 HOLES! When I recover an animal the first thing I look for is the exit hole. If there is not one that is bullet failure Just my experience Simdow | |||
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I've been shooting a long time, engineering a long time, and hunting never. But (you saw that coming didn't ya) I can't see how you're saying Good or Bad in terms of black or white in this case. There seem to be several parameters which all could have various weights. Dead Animal should be a larger percentage of weather a hunting bullet failed or not. (Give it 50%), next retained weight, (20%) proper mushrooming (10%) 2 holes (10%) terminal stabilization or not tumbling IN the animal (10%) Best performance: 100% of the bullet falls straight to the ground after expanding as the manufacturer advertised while drilling a straight hole through the now dead animal. 100% of all categories Worst performance: bullet fragments bounce of the animal and it goes "WTF?" 0% I'd say every bullet ever shot into an animal will be somewhere in between. I certainly wouldn't call the TSX in question a failure. I’d give it a 75% or so… JMHO | |||
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BTW, I just made up "Terminal Stabilization" If you use it give me credit!  | |||
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