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Reloading for an AR 10. Fired military FMJ bullet slide right in shoots great. Tried some military brass resized with RCBS SB die load is 150 gr HDY fmjbt - 46 gr TAC. Shoots well but shell appears to hang up and needs assist to finish seating. Slides right into the chamber. Shoots great. There is what appears to be a scratch on the neck. Every other shell. Have loaded for 50 years but new to AR10 any thoughts? | ||
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| one of us |
The scratch is from the locking lugs on the barrel nut. Are you Full length sizing your brass? As in camming over, die touching shell holder on the down stroke? Trim length ok?  | |||
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One of Us |
I have the first modern AR-10 built. It does not need small base dies and does not scratch brass. Post a picture of your brass. When you say, it needs help to finish seating; how do you do that? As ts said, it might be the locking lug recesses making the scratch. Post a picture. | |||
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| One of Us |
AR10? Armalite? | |||
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| One of Us |
AR-10 is a registered trademark of Arma Lite and no one else can use that model designation. In fact, AR means ArmaLite Rifle, in spite of it's widespread misuse. If someone else try to use AR-10 as a model designation, Arma Lite will sue you. | |||
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To appease the purist "AR 10" style. The brass showing a mark is fFL sized once fired LC brass. I use small base because other semi autos have required sb. Mil 7.62 x 51 cycles great no hesitation the reloads as listed seemed to drag clambering. The mark is right at the shoulder and not all. I am unable to send pictures as it belongs to my son and at present I am 400 miles away. I was hoping maybe a magazine issue. OCL with the 150 FMJBT HDY is less than the military FMJ. | |||
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| One of Us |
In my opinion, if factory ammo works and your reloads don't then surely it can't be a magazine issue. It has to be either bullet shape or case dimension related. Try pulling some bullets from milsurp ammo and loading them in your cases, and seeing if they function? | |||
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| One of Us |
Ok, it is not a purist issue; it is a legal one, and more importantly here, many the parts are not interchangeable between Arma Lite, and others who make look alike. Again, I have reloaded for many semi autos and never needed small base dies. Semi auto chambers are not cut smaller; a common misconception. Small base dies were invented by die makers to sell more dies. | |||
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| One of Us |
Try putting a couple layers of that white medical tape on the brass defector. If that eliminates or mitigates it take the ejector spring out, thread it over a round tooth pic and trim/file a couple of coils off. Try some soft/down loads. Kinda hard to diagnose without a pic of the brass. Also as mentioned above small base is a gimmick. Get an RCBS Case Mic and set your brass back .003 to .005 from fired. That's all you need to do. Doesn't work your brass as much and makes it last longer and fits your chamber better. | |||
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Next week I'll be back home (weather permitting) and will try for pictures. As for SB dies a last word(s) it seems that reloading experience is not only varied but in some cases limited. If you have ever reloaded for a lever action BLR or savage 99 you will need a SB die. Not a gimmick. At present I am working with a savage Axis 243 bolt gun that requires a SB die to load for. 59 plus years have taught me a few things. | |||
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| One of Us |
At 59 years reloading, you are a newbie. Most of the difficulty in reloading is not from the OD of the cases; it was the length, head to shoulder. Yes, small base dies are a relatively new thing, and yes, I have loaded for many lever actions and autos. Come on over and I'll show you. Not saying you don't have chamber and die tolerance overlap, but small base dies? No. | |||
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| One of Us |
Only 59 years eh? I was only trying to help. Excuse me, I will never do that again. Levers are not a direct gas impingement rifle. Thought you would have known that with all that vast knowledge you have.... Do you have any idea how a direct, gas impingement rifle works? Your name is Dick, right? | |||
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It's interesting. 20 some years ago this forum was a place for answers and exchange of ideas. Apparently that has changed. I am sorry I revisited this site. | |||
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So what is different? The reloaded cases AND....the bullet. Played with seating depths? | |||
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| One of Us |
Again, It's hard to diagnose without a pic of the brass. If it's a scratch my first suspicion would first be the mag or barrel extension issue. Not on every case (shell?) means something maybe/is different with the case. If it's only occurring on your resized brass, there is your hint. Small base would have nothing to do with a scratch on the neck as I can see it. I have three Armalite AR10s and at least two more clones. Been reloading for them since the 1980's. My only issue with tuning them has been with violent extraction and ejection causing the case to go into low Earth orbit and getting smacked into the case deflector. All my AR10s use the magazine based on the M14 box. Are yours plastic.  | |||
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| One of Us |
Are we getting through to you Dick? I easily shoot 1600 rounds of 7.62 X 51/.308 a summer at NRA and CMP/DCM High Power Rifle Matches. Probably another 2000 a summer with the 5.56 X 45/.223 Rem as well. I hand load everyone of them. Had a few bugs early on but have them all worked out. I have been doing this for the last 40 plus years just for these gas guns. Started reloading with my dad back in the 60's early 70s. The reason I asked if your "AR10" was an Armalite is because they use a metal box magazine based on the M14 magazine. There are two, no actually three, variations of this .308 DI rifle, commonly called the AR10. The original was designed by Eugene Stoner back in the 50's when he worked for Fairchild Airplane Company. It was the predecessor to the AR-15/M16.The magazine that was designed for that one is the same pattern as what is used in the SR 25, the DPMS version and many others. Mark Westrom, bought the ArmaLite Trademark, was redeveloping a new version that could use more common AR15 parts when the assault weapons ban passed. He could not make new magazines that held more than 10 rounds. He adapted his version so it could use the M14 magazine box which is/was plentiful. Some people get a hard on when one describes every .308 DI rifle as an "AR10" but there are some differences that can cause confusion if talking about one when you actually have the other. There are plastic magazines for the DPMS version (Magpul) that would tell you if it's a magazine issue causing the scratches. | |||
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| one of us |
Brownell's sells (or used to) metal mags for the DPMS pattern also! I have a bunch of the said 20 round mags, and have never owned a Armalite Rifle-10  | |||
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| One of Us |
That is correct. Originally they all were metal box. Called waffle magazines I recall. Then I think it was Magpul started making them in plastic/polymer. | |||
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One of Us |
Hmmm...I have loadd for 3browning BLRs and never used small base dies Mike  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Just thought of something else that you could try as a diagnostic procedure. Take and load up 20 or so rounds. Take a Sharpe and draw a line longitudinally down the case from top to bottom. Load the magazine such that all those lines are facing up. Also note which round is which when placing them in the magazine. The first round usually goes to the left of the follower. The next round goes to the right of that round, the next round goes to the left of that round. etc. etc.... I mark the right ones across the the bottom of the case head as well. See if the scratches are all in the same radius. This may tell you where to look. I had an old MAS49 that was wrecking cases and this is what I came up with to determine what the cause was. It is also a DI operated rifle. | |||
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| One of Us |
Redding makes a Competition Shellholder Part # 11610 that lets you adjust the depth of the case into the die. They are graduated in .001 inch increments. A better solution than just using a small base die. Don't over exercise your brass. If you really want to get into this get an LEWilson case micrometer | |||
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one of us |
I know each firearm is a world unto itself but I had an AR10 and two 308 AR's and none needed small base dies. SNL talked me out of my AR10, I still miss it. Steve......... NRA Patron Life Member GOA Life Member North American Hunting Club Life Member USAF Veteran | |||
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I guess I don’t understand how the shorter shell holders and small base dies get the same functional result? Shorter shell holders should allow you to get the die to make a shorter case (shorter distance from base to datum line of the shoulder…) Small base dies make the case narrower (I presume mostly by removing taper, but I suppose they could just be plain undersize)… I’ve used undersized dies to correct the guppy belly in 9mm and .40 pistol cases left by wide chamber based glocks. I understand the rationale of the small base dies for semi auto rifles, even though I have personally never seen the rifle that needed it. I thought the Redding part was for folks who were loading for multiple competition rifles and you were trying to load the ammo to different minimal headspace differences without resetting up your dies? Or am I wrong here? | |||
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| One of Us |
You are correct. This is the only reason I use those shorter/longer case holders. I do reset my dies for each rifle though. I like to set the case back about .003 inches for brass life, function and accuracy in my semi autos. As I said earlier you can achieve the same results with some feeler gauges and slight feel with your hand turning the die body down on a once fired case. Measure how much of a turn equals .003" up and use that to determine how much is .003 down. Never used a small base die in my 45 years in shooting competition and reloading for my match rifles. .... .556 NATO, 7.62 NATO and .30-06 for Garand and 03A3. I only bought that case holder set when I was first starting out. I then figured out what they did and switched to feeler gauges. Much less expensive. My Service Rifle Match days are pretty much over. DNS (Damn Near Seventy) and just shoot F Class. | |||
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One of Us |
As others may have said "Welcome to Accuratereloading !!! Where all opinions are welcomed............unless they are different than mine. Also if you go on to disagree with me....your are an idiot and I will give you my reloading/shooting life history to prove it. Carry on lad | |||
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